Sibillians overpowered.

[Went]

Have you beaten the game on veteran yet? Or are you one of those players who jump to the hardest difficulty in the name of challenge? If you are, you shouldn't be complaining about how difficult it is to win, then. If you made any progress on Veteran I would assume that you have knowledge of effective tactics for taking down units in close-quarter combat..

Yes I did. Beaten easily with "manual" ironman mode (real ironman is too dangerous due lots of bugs).

Based on your refusal to try different tactics (shotgun/carbines) to take out units and your insistence that the situation is impossible based on bringing up the worst case scenario as an argument, I don't know what to think. You really need to avoid limiting yourself to one or two strategies though, there's always a situation where you'll need to mix it up to be more effective.

OKAY! Everything except sibillians is UNDERPOWERED in this game. I playing insane to get challenge, but got it only within Corvette UFO fighting against two reptilodis, sitting behind their chairs. All other enemies pose no danger to the player in any quantity. It's better?

[cgerrr]

I have to agree about Sebs being the most annoying and most threatening ones to fight against, officers or not. It’d be all good if not so many inconsistencies about them:

According to the lore Sebs’ strong points are toughness, health regen and immunity to smoke while on the other hand they aren’t proficient tactical wise. Logically they should be brutes – fearless tanks which charge Xeno forces head on relaying on their natural toughness and regeneration to survive.

However, it’s not like that in the game: Sebs are quite cunning tactically choosing to exploit their strong features of high health with insane regen when under fire passively hiding behind the cover which coupled with smoke immune (you cant really close in on them head-on) make them ultimate soldiers on the field compared to any other alien species.

That together forces the player to play passively as well in many cases which after a while becomes quite repetitive and borderline boring (especially considering the overall number of battles and slow-ish progression speed).

Suggestion:

Improving Sebs AI to be much more aggressive (not necessary ‘head-on’ aggressive – reapers flank perfectly for example) should provide positive results regarding described problems.

Edited June 27, 2014 by cgerrr

[Nibelung44]

Good point! I can't say I see a difference in cunning between them and others sub-races.

[HammerHead]

Well, aren't Androns the fearless ones? Sebillians don't really seem that stupid from the description.

[Fucille]

I have to agree about Sebs being the most annoying and most threatening ones to fight against, officers or not. It’d be all good if not so many inconsistencies about them:

According to the lore Sebs’ strong points are toughness, health regen and immunity to smoke while on the other hand they aren’t proficient tactical wise. Logically they should be brutes – fearless tanks which charge Xeno forces head on relaying on their natural toughness and regeneration to survive.

However, it’s not like that in the game: Sebs are quite cunning tactically choosing to exploit their strong features of high health with insane regen when under fire passively hiding behind the cover which coupled with smoke immune (you cant really close in on them head-on) make them ultimate soldiers on the field compared to any other alien species.

That together forces the player to play passively as well in many cases which after a while becomes quite repetitive and borderline boring (especially considering the overall number of battles and slow-ish progression speed).

Suggestion:

Improving Sebs AI to be much more aggressive (not necessary ‘head-on’ aggressive – reapers flank perfectly for example) should provide positive results regarding described problems.

I really have to agree here. It's far too common to wing a Sebillian only to watch it run off into the shadows or behind cover to wait for its regeneration to kick in. They're also the only early game enemy aside from Caesans, so it'd be nice if they played differently. A casual examination of their pathing file shows that they have a huge predisposition for staying out of sight, sticking to cover and lying in ambush, which is really a bad combo with their regeneration.

[junker154]

Sebilians are tough and pretty difficult in packs. They're a pain to deal with inside of UFOs and I believe they might regenerate hp to fast but I don't know if I just suck at this game.

[ViewThePhenom]

Yes I did. Beaten easily with "manual" ironman mode (real ironman is too dangerous due lots of bugs).

OKAY! Everything except sibillians is UNDERPOWERED in this game. I playing insane to get challenge, but got it only within Corvette UFO fighting against two reptilodis, sitting behind their chairs. All other enemies pose no danger to the player in any quantity. It's better?

Yes, saying enemies in the game are too weak even on insane makes sense. What it seemed like you were saying before was that Sebilians are too strong on insane (i.e. a complaint). You can look into modding some of the xml files to up the strength of enemy units if you want.

[mrsisk]

He he...find this thread funny on a lot of levels.

I have no advice. But I do feel for the original poster. I remember my first alien base attack back in like V22 or something vs Sebs. I was playing it manual ironman (and very sloppily/recklessly just for the fun of it) and this was only on Normal difficulty.

Anyway, by the time I made it to the command room I only had 2 guys left. They took out 2 Seb guards easily enough, but the leader--first Seb leader I'd ever met--just would not die. He finally killed one of my men and it was just one-on-one, mano-a-mano. I threw everything I had at him, even used picked up alien grenades and alien weapons.

Finally ran out of everything and had to run back through the base robbing corpses of aliens and Xenonauts alike. Finally managed to overcome his regen using rockets, alien grenades, LMGs and picked up alien weapons.

It's good to note, though, that if you don't have lasers or plasma weapons that picking up alien weapons is not a bad thing at close quarters. Especially if you can get right up on them. Close range seems to negate a lot of the accuracy penalty for using alien weapons.

Also, it seems that the leaders are fairly resistant to stun (grenades at least), but they're not immune. When you can bottle them up in smaller rooms, Sebs are really underpowered because one gas grenade dropped in a room and left to sit for 4 or 5 turns can wipe out even stubborn resistance. This may not be so effective with the v1.07 fix that stops you from blocking doors. But I'd bet it's still a valid tactic in a lot of situations.

Not sure how the stun stuff works and if resistance is beefed up in higher difficulties, though.

[Martian]

He he...find this thread funny on a lot of levels.

I have no advice. But I do feel for the original poster. I remember my first alien base attack back in like V22 or something vs Sebs. I was playing it manual ironman (and very sloppily/recklessly just for the fun of it) and this was only on Normal difficulty.

Anyway, by the time I made it to the command room I only had 2 guys left. They took out 2 Seb guards easily enough, but the leader--first Seb leader I'd ever met--just would not die. He finally killed one of my men and it was just one-on-one, mano-a-mano. I threw everything I had at him, even used picked up alien grenades and alien weapons.

Finally ran out of everything and had to run back through the base robbing corpses of aliens and Xenonauts alike. Finally managed to overcome his regen using rockets, alien grenades, LMGs and picked up alien weapons.

It's good to note, though, that if you don't have lasers or plasma weapons that picking up alien weapons is not a bad thing at close quarters. Especially if you can get right up on them. Close range seems to negate a lot of the accuracy penalty for using alien weapons.

Also, it seems that the leaders are fairly resistant to stun (grenades at least), but they're not immune. When you can bottle them up in smaller rooms, Sebs are really underpowered because one gas grenade dropped in a room and left to sit for 4 or 5 turns can wipe out even stubborn resistance. This may not be so effective with the v1.07 fix that stops you from blocking doors. But I'd bet it's still a valid tactic in a lot of situations.

Not sure how the stun stuff works and if resistance is beefed up in higher difficulties, though.

Times that that require a button to allow us to reward Xenonauts manually. A couple of medals and a very nice patch of land in Spain or something for services rendered.

[Vindhjaerta]

Ok, seriously.... what the hell was the devs thinking?

I'm trying to assault a landed corvette full of Sebillians right now. I have Wolf Armor and laser weapons, which considering it's my 4th or so corvette should be what I'm supposed to have at this point in the game (so not behind in the weapons department as far as I know).

If I walk in with 1-2 guys with shields, all 3 doors open and 4-5 Sebillians burst fire me (followed by a normal shot) and my guys get seriously injured or killed immediately. I get close with with one guy every other try or so, but then he's suddenly isolated against several Sebillians... and naturally dies the turn after.

If I try to rush all the way up to the doors with all my guys in an attempt to rush them and focus fire, they open the doors and throw a grenade, killing 80% of my guys. I never have enough TU:s to get all the way from the entrance to the 3 doors and still have AP left to kill stuff (and take cover afterwards). Bunching several guys together is a guaranteed grenade, so that tactic is definitely not possible.

I can't lure them out by say, baiting with a shield guy, since the sebs ai makes them camp and hit&run.

If I throw smoke grenades though, It is possible to get some cover up to the doors and then blitz them..... OH WAIT... that doesn't work either

Seriously devs, how could you give one single enemy the most hp, regen, sneaky ai and immunity to smoke? It's like you hate tactics or something -.- The one single item that can be used to compensate for a bad tactical situation does not work against the strongest enemy in the game....

I'd really like to know what I'm supposed to do in this situation. The research says that Sebillians are strong in close quarters, but weak at range... but in a UFO (which you will face full of Sebillians at many points in the game) their only weakness is nullified. And again, smoke doesn't work against them.

I'm thinking of reloading the game and equip myself with some rocket launchers. Will they work against the 3 doors? That's the only tactic I can think of right now, but I have no idea if it will work. If it doesn't, I really don't know how I could possibly get up to those doors without loosing my whole squad.

Devs, do something about the Sebillians, they are waaaay overpowered right now.

[KevinHann]

Stun gas?

[Went]

I got new "surprise" here. It's name is MIND CONTROL. My lieutenant with 80 or above bravery... Just BANG! and he kills all teammates around him. There is no way to block or parry this. Random generator says: "these soldiers will die this round" and you can do nothing against. This is just game design error, not a challenge.

[KevinHann]

I got new "surprise" here. It's name is MIND CONTROL. My lieutenant with 80 or above bravery... Just BANG! and he kills all teammates around him. There is no way to block or parry this. Random generator says: "these soldiers will die this round" and you can do nothing against. This is just game design error, not a challenge.

You'll have to wait till the first anti-psi armor mods come through - on the bright side it shouldn't be long!

[Vindhjaerta]

Stun gas?

How am I supposed to toss a stun grenade at them if I don't have enough TU:s when I reach the doors? If I run up and open them with one guy, then let another further behind toss the grenade, the soldier who ran up will get shot down. There simply is no effective way of getting in there

Oh, and Sebillians are resistant to stun too it seems. Apparently they needed it.... -.-

I did manage to get in there and kill them eventually though, after like 8 more reloads or so and 4 dead guys

Also, does anyone know why enemies can shoot past my shield guy as if he is not there at all? I put him in front, standing up, and another guy behind. The guy behind gets shot down with 1 shot... Isn't the shield supposed to protect?

[KevinHann]

Why do you need to get in there? Just blast the doors away and nuke them. C4 should come very handy. It explodes after the aliens move.

[ViewThePhenom]

How am I supposed to toss a stun grenade at them if I don't have enough TU:s when I reach the doors? If I run up and open them with one guy, then let another further behind toss the grenade, the soldier who ran up will get shot down. There simply is no effective way of getting in there

Oh, and Sebillians are resistant to stun too it seems. Apparently they needed it.... -.-

I did manage to get in there and kill them eventually though, after like 8 more reloads or so and 4 dead guys

Also, does anyone know why enemies can shoot past my shield guy as if he is not there at all? I put him in front, standing up, and another guy behind. The guy behind gets shot down with 1 shot... Isn't the shield supposed to protect?

The shield provides a chance of blocking a shot, just like any other cover, it's possible that a shot will get past. There's also the option to blast the doors down with rockets or C4, then shoot the sebs down from a distance. Also, if a mission is too difficult then you can just retreat, that's a choice between losing x soldiers to finish or giving up and keeping your units intact.

Also, I suggest you ask questions before blaming the devs for bad design when you're having difficulty with a portion of the game. Rants are fine, but be mature enough to take responsibility for your own failures, please.

[Chthon]

The shield provides a chance of blocking a shot, just like any other cover, it's possible that a shot will get past. There's also the option to blast the doors down with rockets or C4, then shoot the sebs down from a distance. Also, if a mission is too difficult then you can just retreat, that's a choice between losing x soldiers to finish or giving up and keeping your units intact.

Also, I suggest you ask questions before blaming the devs for bad design when you're having difficulty with a portion of the game. Rants are fine, but be mature enough to take responsibility for your own failures, please.

I too had problems with sebilians late game in my last play through. I was on normal difficulty. How much does Sebilian health scale with difficulty? The ones I fought would heal 96 hp a turn. I shot two plasma rockets (the third kind) and it simply ate it and kept going after 175 damage.

I don't think that Sebilian hp is scaling properly with difficulty if they are supposed to have 200 HP on Insane. I wasn't thinking that they were too hard, but that I should have built my plasma weapons a little sooner as they can soak so much damage.

Finally, I know you can blow open doors, but the thin walls in UFOs, can those be blown away? Narrow door engagements are quite obnoxious.

[Dranak]

I too had problems with sebilians late game in my last play through. I was on normal difficulty. How much does Sebilian health scale with difficulty? The ones I fought would heal 96 hp a turn. I shot two plasma rockets (the third kind) and it simply ate it and kept going after 175 damage.

I don't think that Sebilian hp is scaling properly with difficulty if they are supposed to have 200 HP on Insane. I wasn't thinking that they were too hard, but that I should have built my plasma weapons a little sooner as they can soak so much damage.

Finally, I know you can blow open doors, but the thin walls in UFOs, can those be blown away? Narrow door engagements are quite obnoxious.

<alienAttributeEasy value="0.7"/>

<alienAttributeNormal value="0.8"/>

<alienAttributeVeteran value="1.0"/>

<alienAttributeSuperhuman value="1.25"/>

Seb Elites have 240 HP on Veteran, 300 on Insane. 300 HP, 150 HP regen per turn, suppression resistance, and smoke immunity does seem like it could all be a bit much.

[Went]

You'll have to wait till the first anti-psi armor mods come through - on the bright side it shouldn't be long!

Even anti-psi armors is not solution. Okay, you have it. Probably it's attributes will be weaker than Sentiel ones. Would you wear it?

1. If it's anti-pri defence would be good, and anti-damage not much worse than others - answer is YES! Always YES! So this is not gameplay element, it's just "must have" element.

2. If it's anti-pri defence would be weak, or anti-damage effect will be much worse - answer is NO! Never! So it's will be spare game element, like the Fury interceptor.

3. If all the attributes will be balanced well and player will know about enemy race before ground mission, there will a sense to have two armor sets for both psionic and non-psionic aliens. But this will be boring to reequip team before each combat.

Moreover, even if a soldier will equip anti-psi armor, it's just change randomizer rules and nothing more. So, psi armor is not solution for problem.

What solution IS? Mind control must affect only soldiers with very low morale (10-20). So aliens will drain his morale first and only then try to control him. Player will see it and will have a solution - move panic soldier away/disarm him or venture to ignore possible control lost.

[ViniJones]

Id prefer for it to remain the same and require a line of sight. Not gonna happen though. Its best to either savescum or mod and remove the tumor altogether.

[kabill]

What solution IS? Mind control must affect only soldiers with very low morale (10-20). So aliens will drain his morale first and only then try to control him. Player will see it and will have a solution - move panic soldier away/disarm him or venture to ignore possible control lost.

I did have a thought about a psionic system a bit ago which relied on the aliens using Fear first to weaken your soldier's morale, followed by using more powerful abilities once they've been depleted.

I'm still interested in trying it out, but whether it works or not will be very contingent on how the psi-power AI works.

[silencer]

What solution IS? Mind control must affect only soldiers with very low morale (10-20). So aliens will drain his morale first and only then try to control him. Player will see it and will have a solution - move panic soldier away/disarm him or venture to ignore possible control lost.

Make PSI attacks LoS only. Eventually with squad sight but not up to for example 10 tiles away from max view distance and only on same height level of the attacker.

The PSI attack supposed to be weak on longer ranges witch is not true (or I am talking lies now), because Psions can successfully panic soldiers across the whole bloody map.

Edited July 5, 2014 by silencer

[Went]

LOS psionic is a solution too. But this will make psi almost same as weapon - have a LOS and attack. Almost. And like as any other weapon, this solution will have the "oneshot" problem. Even worse - you will unable to protect against this attack behind the cover. Imagine, your top-ranked soldier gets 100% cover, best armor and much TU's for reaction fire. Then one silly psi-caesian just comes from the darkness and controls him. How player can parry this? Ooops

[ViniJones]

If I recall, the los doesnt have to be the sight of the psion, but rather any of his fellows, considering theyre all controlled, much like your soldiers.

Ive had my share of high ranks self-owned by mc, but that can be avoided by throwing down their weapons every other turn. This blows, but works.

What I really love is when a soldier gets so scared he runs straight into the enemy line(because thats what you do when youre scared, run straight into the scary thing), while dropping his weapon. Its puzzling how many games have this cancer in them.

[kabill]

LOS psionic is a solution too. But this will make psi almost same as weapon - have a LOS and attack. Almost. And like as any other weapon, this solution will have the "oneshot" problem. Even worse - you will unable to protect against this attack behind the cover. Imagine, your top-ranked soldier gets 100% cover, best armor and much TU's for reaction fire. Then one silly psi-caesian just comes from the darkness and controls him. How player can parry this? Ooops

If a soldier was behind full cover, then they should be fine as there won't actually be any LoS. Indeed, that would be the trick in a LoS-based psionic system: stay out of LoS!