Modular UFOs - Discussion and Suggestions

[Ragnarok]

I think that is a valid suggestion (race floors instead of race sections).

[Skitso]

I'll also see if I can get Aaron to do a better tile to go next to the doors so we don't have to live with those "gaps" in the current designs.

Yeah, also the NE outer wall would be nicer if it would be straight.

[kabill]

I've been considering giving the aliens a chance to shoot down a deck for the Carrier and Battleship designs to up the difficulty scale even further, thought it's a bit early for Cruisers. I'd be interested to see an example of how you see this design-wise (maybe a quick mock-up of just that element screenshot?)

Well, personally I still like the loading bay hole in the landing ships I've done. Shooting outside is a bit more difficult as you'd need special assets for that, so maybe it wouldn't actually work for the Cruiser you've designed.

On the subject of difficulty, though, with things like this I've be inclined not to pull any punches. With hull modularisation, the player can attack from any point they want with the right resources, so making the regular approach difficult I don't think matters too much.

Yes, I've been thinking about the contrast but I figured I'd go that way to spook the player a bit and give the sense of entering a different, maybe harder area of the UFO, much like colonial marines would walk around a Colony and all of a sudden enter an alien infested section with all that biomechanic stuff on the walls and floor. I don't really have any ideas how to reduce the contrast naturally without giving it priority over the entire design of the level and I'm reluctant to do so.

Is it a big problem for others as well?

As Chris says, you might be able to get away with just doing the floors. To be honest, the alien base floor tiles are a lot better looking than the 'panel' ones in my opinion anyway. Indeed, regardless of anything else I'd be inclined to use the Caesan floor as the default one having seen it in that last image.

[KevinHann]

To be honest, where possible I'd do an entire floor in the special race-specific tiles. I think it'd look more coherent.

I wanted to make the race-specific space gradually grow (otherwise I'd have to compose an entirely race-specific setup for single-floor UFOs) but I will see how it looks with the proposed floor changes. Probably we could do with some additional "transitional floor tiles" unless you think it's not worth the effort. I'm also a bit underwhelmed with the lack of more distinctive Ceasan-specific props and walls, but that's just me being grumpy By the way could you clarify what was the original function of the Ornate Wall tiles you had in mind? I don't remember seeing them anywhere in the game. Are they tied to Praetors?

I'll also see if I can get Aaron to do a better tile to go next to the doors so we don't have to live with those "gaps" in the current designs.

If it's not a big bother there are several other instances which look "sloppy" when going into more complex shapes. Check out the hull tiles in the middle:

EDIT: Sorry, wrong image! Fixed now!

Edited July 8, 2014 by KevinHann

[Chris]

Couple more thoughts - I'd probably leave the hole out of the middle of the second floor saucer, and just have it as one big indoor space split by interior walls.

Also, I think you might be missing a trick by not having single-tile doors leading out to the "roof" of the UFO from the sides of the saucer. Lets the aliens snipe down at you and also gives you a chance to breach it using Buzzards and Sentinels.

[Chris]

I wanted to make the race-specific space gradually grow (otherwise I'd have to compose an entirely race-specific setup for single-floor UFOs) but I will see how it looks with the proposed floor changes. Probably we could do with some additional "transitional floor tiles" unless you think it's not worth the effort. I'm also a bit underwhelmed with the lack of more distinctive Ceasan-specific props and walls, but that's just me being grumpy By the way could you clarify what was the original function of the Ornate Wall tiles you had in mind? I don't remember seeing them anywhere in the game. Are they tied to Praetors?

If it's not a big bother there are several other instances which look "sloppy" when going into more complex shapes. Check out the hull tiles in the middle:

EDIT: Sorry, wrong image! Fixed now!

TBH I think you're just putting too much in too small an area in the centre of the UFO. I'd widen it by a couple of tiles and make the "corridor" accordingly wider to give you more space.

The ornate wall tiles were never used. Aaron did them for the final mission but I didn't like them...so I never used them or got them painted over.

[KevinHann]

Couple more thoughts - I'd probably leave the hole out of the middle of the second floor saucer, and just have it as one big indoor space split by interior walls.

Also, I think you might be missing a trick by not having single-tile doors leading out to the "roof" of the UFO from the sides of the saucer. Lets the aliens snipe down at you and also gives you a chance to breach it using Buzzards and Sentinels.

Both are good suggestions and I've considered them but eventually discarded them because of the crew size - I've already given Saucer Cruiser more tiles of interiors than the original and I'm worried the crew won't be able to handle it well if I throw in one otherwise very cool option too many. I do have those in mind for the final two designs though!

I'd be less reluctant to experiment with those if there was additional control over the aliens, most notably this:

8. This one is a bit tricky but very important: Let's say I assign a crew of 30 aliens to a UFO. I'd like to be able to break them down to several teams which could perform different tasks, but so that different teams can perform the same task in different areas. For instance team 1 guards area 1 and never leaves it, team 2 guards area 2, team 3 patrols between area 1 and 2, etc. I'm unsure if this works now but it would be nice if these can be painted on blank tiles outside the UFO, thus allowing specific teams to patrol in and out of the UFO and put possible multiple exits UFO layouts to use by flanking your team after you've cleared the general map and entered the UFO thinking your back is safe.

[kabill]

Both are good suggestions and I've considered them but eventually discarded them because of the crew size - I've already given Saucer Cruiser more tiles of interiors than the original and I'm worried the crew won't be able to handle it well if I throw in one otherwise very cool option too many. I do have those in mind for the final two designs though!

I'm not sure how the UFO crews compare, but it's worth noting that the vanilla Cruiser isn't much bigger (in fact it might even be smaller) than the landing ship in terms of useable size. Assuming that the Cruiser has a few more defensive aliens, then, it could probably cope with being a little larger than the vanilla one.

EDIT: I like the idea of above-ground-level doors, too. Actually makes a lot of sense in terms of a 0g environment if nothing else.

[KevinHann]

I'm not sure how the UFO crews compare, but it's worth noting that the vanilla Cruiser isn't much bigger (in fact it might even be smaller) than the landing ship in terms of useable size. Assuming that the Cruiser has a few more defensive aliens, then, it could probably cope with being a little larger than the vanilla one.

You really had to put a dent at my political attempt to negotiate a feature we could all use, did you

Edited July 8, 2014 by KevinHann

[thixotrop]

I don't want to spoil your fun with this, and I definitely see that you put a lot of work into it, but I just wanted to say, please don't create UFO designs in a way that they are complex for combat sake only. Make them in an "alien" way reasonable.

Something similar has been said for maps: "Maps should look real and logical and not obstruse and strange to boost complexity." (or at least in that meaning).

Two examples:

Light Scout:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4787[/ATTACH]

It has only one engine off-center, this UFO will rotate but not travel along. If "not visible thrusters" should compensate this they must be immensly powerful. Seems illogical for me.

Saucer Cruiser (Andron)

Why would anyone (engineer, designer, architect) want to create an entrance/exit between such narrow walls. And then this "hole" in the center of the UFO goes straight through it; what a waste of space.

This seems to me the best example to create "complexity" over reason.

I know I have mentioned earlier to play a bit with split-up entrances on ground level, and the original four "footed" UFO looks somewhat similar on ground level, but there the aliens have also four exit routes and not one narrow "pearlchain-shoot-me-corridor".

Again, don't get me wrong. I see a lot of your effort here. Just want to keep you in line with the rest of the game style and its approach to technology.

I don't know if others see this like me....maybe my engineer soul comes out again.

[KevinHann]

Why would anyone (engineer, designer, architect) want to create an entrance/exit between such narrow walls. And then this "hole" in the center of the UFO goes straight through it; what a waste of space.

This seems to me the best example to create "complexity" over reason.

I know I have mentioned earlier to play a bit with split-up entrances on ground level, and the original four "footed" UFO looks somewhat similar on ground level, but there the aliens have also four exit routes and not one narrow "pearlchain-shoot-me-corridor".

Again, don't get me wrong. I see a lot of your effort here. Just want to keep you in line with the rest of the game style and its approach to technology.

I don't know if others see this like me....maybe my engineer soul comes out again.

I saw this coming while designing the Cruiser, and I do have an answer for it My thought was the walls you see forming the narrow tunnel towards the middle are collapsible, forming the complete SE section just like the other three. The aliens "closed" them to form a fortress-type entry point upon crashing/landing and information your troops are advancing towards their position (assuming you have already taken out multiple crashed UFOs they do have a reason to be defensive rather than count they can overwhelm you). They aren't using that particular design to shoot themselves in the foot by limiting their exit points, they are inviting you to try and take their fortified positions instead. Isn't that at least marginally plausible?

That being said I do try to keep logic in mind but I will give priority of combat designs over function every now and then. It's a personal choice I am willing to take to satisfy my personal criteria of gameplay. I do realize it will clash with other people's view and I am always willing to reconsider when suitable arguments are presented though - and your comments are welcome! If the popular belief is a given design is totally dysfunctional I will obviously have to get back to the drawing board.

EDIT: I should also clarify I have no problem with anyone willing to take any of the designs you see here as "Base" to tweak them to match any criteria they have. It's not like I own them or something!

Edited July 8, 2014 by KevinHann

[kabill]

I can see a lot of merit in having the external doorways sheltered from external attack. Doorways are probably the UFO's weakest points, so making them difficult to target seems very sensible to me.

As for the hole in the middle: "wasting space" isn't necessarily an issue. If the space isn't needed, there's nothing to waste. Moreover, reducing the overall mass of the ship is almost certainly advantageous from a resource-consumption perspective (less fuel) and from a mobility perspective (faster, less resistance moving vertically in an atmosphere). Possibly also helps with access in a zero-g environment.

Of course, there are no doubt 'better' designs that could do all of that. But for me, the Cruiser design seems reasonable enough (i.e. it's not to me absurd, while it looks interesting from a gameplay perspective).

That said, the positioning of the engine in the light scout bothered me a bit too

[Ragnarok]

To be honest, i dont think human engineering skills or logic should apply for UFOs. Aliens, if they exist, might have an entirely different mindset. There might not be something like emotions or a feeling of "effort". We think in our own mindset, but you cant really apply human logic to extraterrestials. Assuming they have UFOs and spaceflight, they might have ten times our evolution behind them. "LOGIC" is just what we think it is.

For whats it worths, these ufos might not need to land, they might not even need doors because they can teleport from low orbit to the ground.

You could do a UFO without a door, put a bunch of teleports in it and pretend the aliens land and teleport to the outside, gather samples, and are being teleported back inside. The concept of a "door" might be alien to them !

[KevinHann]

That said, the positioning of the engine in the light scout bothered me a bit too

Hands off ma uber super light scout! Fixing it is sooooo hard!

Chill out, it's just a very quick draw to get a taste of the general concept and get the ball rolling. Addressing it is the simplest thing to do, obviously I didn't put much thought in it

Although just for the sake of fun, aren't Saucers supposed to you know, spin?

EDIT: If you have other weird design decisions obvious to you, folks, feel free to drop a specific description - after all it's the reason I post those here, to get feedback. Don't be worried you'll hurt my feelings or something, I always think about what you say and return to think about it some more later, even if my response is dismissive.

Edited July 8, 2014 by KevinHann

[thixotrop]

@Kevin

The collapsing wall concept is really nice and can explain this for me, so I can live with it. A Xenopedia description would be really nice then. However, this also shows the aliens doesn't understand human soldiers well...once trapped that way, they will blast their own entrance into the UFO (see FITH mod ).

@Kabil

Ok, wasting space may not be the same for the aliens as it is for humans due to the powerful alenium technology and its surplus of energy.

"Moreover, reducing the overall mass of the ship is almost certainly advantageous from a resource-consumption perspective (less fuel) and from a mobility perspective (faster, less resistance moving vertically in an atmosphere). Possibly also helps with access in a zero-g environment."

Less fuel - absolutely agree.

Atmospheric mobility - no. The hole may be OK for pure vertical movement in atmospheres but not when horizontal movement is happening too, due to a lot of turbulences (see drag coefficient). Yeah, you could kill this argument again with the surplus of energy, but this applies to aliens only, not to human technology. Gravity has no effect here, as only the total mass of the UFO is important then. Then a hole may be reasonable. Though, in viscous conditions like an atmosphere turbulences have a drastic effect.

@Ragnarok

You are right, human engineering should not be applied as the alien technology may have other constraint, but still there is physics. And this is everywhere the same (as far as we know).

Furthermore, the aliens changed their crafts for atmospheric travel, it says so in the Xenopedia, so they seem to struggle with physics already, so they don't have other physics as we do. An UFO with an engine at one side will spin unless there are those thruster that will negate this spin. The space shuttle had thrusters for rotation in all degrees of freedom.

Additionally, the research progression in the Xenopedia tells a lot about how humans can understand alien technology after some time and with some struggle. And yes I know Arthus C. Clarks laws.

The "beam down - UFO without doors" is absolutely reasonable for me. Why use doors when teleporters exist and you have enough energy?

Before this all goes too much off-topic: I don't want to force you all to consider physics and engineering aspects in each and every way. Just keep in mind that the whole "story of aliens arriving on Earth" should not be too much a fairy tale and stay science fiction and this means a fiction (imaginative approach) of science.

Yeah and this not-fariy-tale-approach should also apply to combat and the ground missions, hence the narrow corridor headache.

When I see all the "realistic weopanry" modders, they do a lot of work too to get it all right, I guess reasonable ground combat scenes will be appreciated.

Edited July 8, 2014 by thixotrop

[kabill]

@Kabil

Ok, wasting space may not be the same for the aliens as it is for humans due to the powerful alenium technology and its surplus of energy.

My point wasn't that they can afford to waste space. My point is that, unless they've got something to put in that space, it's not actually wasted. Having more space for its own sake, especially when there are other design issues to consider (like the things I went on to mention) isn't necessarily a good thing.

Atmospheric mobility - no. The hole may be OK for pure vertical movement in atmospheres but not when horizontal movement is happening too, due to a lot of turbulences (see drag coefficient).

While I hadn't considered any of this (yay physics lesson!), I was mainly thinking pure vertical movement anyway. In my head, I imagine UFOs doing a lot of vertical movement for landing/takeoff/moving in and out of the atmosphere etc.

[KevinHann]

Or maybe the aliens are just German. They defy poor understanding of physics and defenses of their hosts. Plus who cares about a hole in the middle when you have Neuer in goal?

[KevinHann]

As requested, here are some screens of how Saucer Landing Ship and Saucer Cruiser second floors look with fully-painted race-specific floors. I've only done this for Sebillians and Androns as I don't see any major contrast with Ceasans (on the contrary, everything would be useful to actually enhance the contrast for them!)

Kabill will also notice I have added a second-floor three-tile stand to shoot down from the second floor, linked to a door which could also be used as an entry point for your Buzzard/Sentinel troops. Did you want to see something like that, mate?

[Ragnarok]

Looks pretty good. Why however you are "still" mixxing up General with race specific stuff ? Why not make one layer entirely green or red, including all walltiles and random stuff ?

[KevinHann]

This was an epic struggle and trust me, I didn't know what I made of it until I finally started compiling the finished screenshot! Beware, it's a somewhat big submap size, but that's mainly because the space needed for a Saucer is generally wider. That being said, this design is still significantly larger than Original Carrier - over 900 active tiles versus 778 for Original; 41x41 submap size versus 14x49 for Original. I was planning to do a third floor command room and large fields for snipers but both of them fit just okay within the second floor so the third one was discarded. It would probably require some additional crew, especially considering all the defensive points which would be pointless if there isn't anyone to actually take advantage of them.

Despite sharing some similarities with the Cruiser and being generally defensive, this UFO is rather unique - there are 36 potential entry points in terms of doors you can access directly from the hull!

[KevinHann]

I'd like to hear some feedback before rolling the Andron and Ceasan versions of the Carrier as redrawing the race-specific tiles will be pretty time-consuming and I've got some other things I need to address tonight on top of watching the semi-final. I'm hesitant to share my own observations at this point but I'll say the fact I could only see a tiny fraction of the entire submap while designing it did distance me significantly from the concept I had in mind and I'm undecided on how good or bad it is at the moment.

One thing I'm considering adding would be a submap-submap of another smaller UFO or two with original hulls, probably in the middle or on the roof/third floor, to get more faithful to the original Carrier concept.

[Chris]

I think the upper section is too large relative to the bottom one. There's not a lot of point having all those doors to the outside if they only have a 1-tile section in front of them. I'd make it more compact on top, possibly shrinking the internal empty square to compensate if necessary.

[Solver]

I would also be careful with any holes that enable shooting from above. Multilevel line of fire simply does not work well in the game, it may lead to many frustrating situations where you can/cannot hit the enemy despite what it logically looks like.

[KevinHann]

That was the reason I only drew a 3x1 tile shooting points on the sides of the second floor, but Chris is right that all those doors are a bit awkward (maybe 1-tile doors instead would be a compromise solution instead of shrinking the interiors?) The mid section should be a bit more flexible with all the space below to move around if you are that bold/reckless to do so. I can't foresee how these will actually function in the game without some proper tests though.

Should I take it you don't have any observations on the first floor or worries with the general size of the submap?

[thixotrop]

...I was mainly thinking pure vertical movement anyway. In my head, I imagine UFOs doing a lot of vertical movement for landing/takeoff/moving in and out of the atmosphere etc.

Ah, but you have seen the UFO movement on the (flattened globe) geosacpe? Definitely horizontal movement too me, unless they go straight up into orbit, move horizontal and come straight down again. Hmm, I doubt the radar stations could follow them all the way and neither the jets.

Or maybe the aliens are just German. They defy poor understanding of physics and defenses of their hosts. Plus who cares about a hole in the middle when you have Neuer in goal?

Ah Kevin and his sarcastic humor

Neuer...who? Ah one of the football idi...players.

*Cough* As you might have guessed from that, I do not care a teensy tiny little bit of a morsel of a nano...unit about that issue.