Improve Aircraft Ranges

[TheTuninator]

This is something that has been itching at me for a while, and I figured I'd see if it bothered anyone else.

The aircraft ranges in Xenonauts are currently greatly inferior to those of their X-COM cousins. Take a look:

An X-COM Interceptor from a base in the Northeastern US can get this far around the world traveling east before needing to refuel:

An X-COM Skyranger can go this far east and then hover on-site for ~12 hours:

A Xenonauts F-17/MiG-32 squadron can go only this far east from a base in the northern US before needing to return to base to refue

And an Xenonauts Chinook can only get this far east before needing to refuel:

Regardless of the relative sizes of the games' maps, this is a serious problem as it greatly reduces your ability to protect other funding nations. Plus, it's just plain frustrating, and I feel it also contributes to the percent of UFOs which escape, which feels much greater in Xenonauts than X-COM-another source of frustration.

This seems like an easy fix, so I hope it's changed during the beta!

Edited February 15, 2012 by TheTuninator

[Gorlom]

I guess Xenonauts is going for a bit of more realistic aircraft ranges? Personally Id be satisfied if the UFO chase wasnt so drawn out (I usually play at 4th speed dunno if the bugg that made it hard for the aircrafts to catch up on that speed is still in game or if it got sorted) Or if headding them off at the pass was easier somehow. (I cant figure out how to anticipate scout manuvers )

[TheTuninator]

I guess Xenonauts is going for a bit of more realistic aircraft ranges? Personally Id be satisfied if the UFO chase wasnt so drawn out (I usually play at 4th speed dunno if the bugg that made it hard for the aircrafts to catch up on that speed is still in game or if it got sorted) Or if headding them off at the pass was easier somehow. (I cant figure out how to anticipate scout manuvers )

The problem is that in this case, "realistic" is directly harmful to the gameplay. You'd be hard-pressed to find a more strident advocate of maintaining atmosphere than me, but this is definitely a case in which realism needs to be waved away. As aircraft ranges currently stand, it's nearly impossible to protect other funding nations, and it's really easy for UFOs simply to lead on your fighters until they run out of range. In X-COM, you'd be able to tail them well through Europe and down them; in Xenonauts, you lose them over the Atlantic.

This results in a greatly lessened ability to protect other funding nations, as well as much frustration on the part of the player, and in my estimation those are quite undesirable.

The bug that makes it impossible for fighters to catch UFOs once right behind them is definitely still there, as well.

Edited February 15, 2012 by TheTuninator

[Chris]

Mmmm, we might be adding some friendly AI geoscape forces to act as speed bumps to slow down the aliens for the first couple of months until the player can expand. Until we decide whether or not to roll with that system I'm loathe to try and balance the interceptors too much.

[TheTuninator]

Even if you add geoscape AI allies, I'd strongly urge you still to bolster the ranges of Xenonaut aircraft considerably.

There's a few primary problems with the current system, which I will try to detail my feelings on more clearly:

#1, it's quite simply frustrating for the player's interceptors to run out of fuel so quickly. This is partly to do with the intercept bug where your planes can't actually catch UFOs, but I find myself running out of fuel before catching a UFO way more in Xenonauts than X-COM. This results in UFOs often escaping without even needing to outboost your interceptors the way they would in X-COM.

#2, it reduces your ability to do ground missions significantly. Tailing a UFO halfway across the world with a transport until it lands and then assaulting it is no longer feasible, as the Chinook's range is very short. Similarly, you often can't tail a UFO until it's over land (a great feature, by the way) because your planes are quite simply far too low on fuel. As I assume Xenonauts will feature a similar system to that of X-COM's Elerium, it's absolutely imperative that the Xenonauts be able to assault as many grounded, intact UFOs as possible, and that's simply not feasible with such short aircraft ranges. You need to go for the immediate kill, as the player lacks the ability to shadow UFOs for any length of time.

#3, it reduces your ability to protect your funding nations, and that leads into more of the aforementioned frustration.

I suppose what I'm trying to get across is that while I very much so like the idea of AI allies on the geoscape, they shouldn't be doing the player's job for him; they should be a nice auxiliary which supplements the player's forces. If I put my base in NA and have to hope the AI will do a decent enough job to protect Europe and East Asia, because I can't project power there, that's just plain not fun.

I understand that this is a balance point which likely won't be modified in any way until the "balance pass" of the beta, and I'm perfectly okay with that; I merely wanted to bring this issue to the attention of you guys now, as I feel it's quite a crucial one.

Keep up the great work!

Edited February 16, 2012 by TheTuninator

[ploertendoder]

An X-COM Skyranger can go this far east and then hover on-site for ~12 hours:

I noticed this yesterday: Chinooks are unable to hover above a downed UFO aren't they? I used this option in X-COM to wait for daylight before going in.

[Gauddlike]

A bit more fuel would be useful but it doesn't need to be over the top.

These are only the first interceptors and the struggle to down the advanced craft you are hunting is part of the reason why you are desperately trying to find better technology.

I wouldn't try tailing a ufo with a transport in Xenonauts anyway.

Some alien craft will have orders to hunt your aircraft down and a squishy little Chinook would be a great target.

I would like to see alien craft also turning to attack, if they are being followed by something they think they can take on.

*edit* Forgot to suggest altering the ranges yourself to see what you think would make a better max range for the interceptors.

aircrafts.xml in the xenonauts/assets folder has the data you want to look at.

The part in bold is the current range, just need to tweak that number until you are happier.

Let us know what you come up with.

<Cell><Data ss:Type="String">airplane.human.f17</Data></Cell>

<Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">200</Data></Cell>

<Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">20</Data></Cell>

<Cell><Data ss:Type="Number">17500</Data></Cell>

Edited February 16, 2012 by Gauddlike

[TheTuninator]

A bit more fuel would be useful but it doesn't need to be over the top.

These are only the first interceptors and the struggle to down the advanced craft you are hunting is part of the reason why you are desperately trying to find better technology.

Oh, I'm not debating that. The issue is that at the moment, the very limited range of the aircraft as compared to X-COM is (imo) significantly impinging upon player enjoyment of the game.

The game should be fun and fair (as far as Xenonauts can be, anyways) right from the start; I shouldn't need to unlock the next tier of craft (something made much harder than X-COM by the current range levels) in order to actually stand a decent chance of catching UFOs. The stock Interceptors in X-COM could run down pretty much any UFO; you might not be able to kill it, but you could certainly catch it.

I noticed this yesterday: Chinooks are unable to hover above a downed UFO aren't they? I used this option in X-COM to wait for daylight before going in.

I'm actually not sure; I'll have to check.

[Gauddlike]

Bah check my edit, you answered too quickly

[anotherdevil]

yeah so long as there is some sort of buffer (ala allies on the map) then I don't foresee too big a problem personally. I think players should be rewarded for clever first base placement though, that's why I always have put mine in Europe so I can cover that, and a bit of Russia and Africa too (with radar) and hopefully my chinook can get almost to Asia!

[KOKON]

Mmmm, we might be adding some friendly AI geoscape forces to act as speed bumps to slow down the aliens for the first couple of months until the player can expand. Until we decide whether or not to roll with that system I'm loathe to try and balance the interceptors too much.

+100

In Vladimir Vasilyev enemy unknown sci-fi book (smth like an xcom afteraction report) conventional fighters were widely used. For example here is my qick translation:

1st xcom action:

...

"ALERT" "ALERT" "ALERT"

...

Our long-range detection and bundeswehr radar surveillance systems have detected unknown flying object. We could not launch intenceptors before the soucer have landed. Now it is watched for by NATO fighter wing. In 15 mins you would be in place. Our expert will tell you smth. Good luck!

...

2nd xcom action:

...

January 6th 1999 radars have detected second UFO above mediterranean. Greek fighters have followed it almost until apennines but then both X-com "Intenceptors" arrived. UFO was very small, about 3 meters in diameter and the very first salvo have teared it to shreds. What could explode in that tiny conus? Was it fuel, power plant or ammunition? It's anybody's guess.

...

---

In this book the main problem for ordinary intenceptors was speed. However sometimes they managed to shot down ufos. This correlates very good with tobacco stories when ufos are playing with fighters. Also i remember smth like if fighters tried to engage battleships they were not able to kill it nor to run away due their speed limits.

May be someone have more ideas about xenonauts airforces and conventional airforces? How should it go?

Edited February 16, 2012 by KOKON

[TheTuninator]

Bah check my edit, you answered too quickly

Thanks for the XML info! I'll be sure to mod that and see how it works!

[Gauddlike]

Just remember that the fuel also controls how long they can stay in air combat once they arrive.

If you give them enough fuel to fly round the world twice you are also removing any drawbacks to constant afterburner use, for example.

[Gauddlike]

KOKON I also like the idea of conventional air forces taking up some of the slack at the beginning.

It would probably tail off as the enemies get stronger though in the same way that your own starting interceptors will struggle.

Chris has suggested before that making laser tech available to friendly powers could be used as a way to bring their armed forces back into the fight.

This would also work as a way to prevent the player having to personally bring down every single small craft when they are no longer strong enough to be a threat.

Leave them to the newly upgraded human air forces.

[TheTuninator]

Just remember that the fuel also controls how long they can stay in air combat once they arrive.

If you give them enough fuel to fly round the world twice you are also removing any drawbacks to constant afterburner use, for example.

Yup, that's a risk I'm willing to take to avoid the frustration of my planes running out of fuel while chasing a UFO across the Atlantic.

[anotherdevil]

KOKON I also like the idea of conventional air forces taking up some of the slack at the beginning.

It would probably tail off as the enemies get stronger though in the same way that your own starting interceptors will struggle.

Chris has suggested before that making laser tech available to friendly powers could be used as a way to bring their armed forces back into the fight.

This would also work as a way to prevent the player having to personally bring down every single small craft when they are no longer strong enough to be a threat.

Leave them to the newly upgraded human air forces.

I believe that the aliens would eventually start hunting down these airforce bases as well, slowly eliminating them altogether...

[Patupi]

Hmm, one way to keep a balance between starting planes that use jet fuel and later one that maybe utilize some hybrid alien/human engines would be fuel pods. Sacrifice a missile slot to increase range. It would increase range more for the f17 than for the mig (it's a heavier plane) but you could always sacrifice 2 missile slots on the mig... or even 3 if you wanted to send a lot of migs with one missile a piece. Later alien based engines this wouldn't work with (for some gobbledegook reason) or maybe it wouldn't work at first, but in late game you build a fuel/power pod for those too?

Not sure if this would imbalance things too much, but I doubt it. The cost of losing armament to gain range might well be worth it, especially once you get some semi useful cannons on the f17 later on.

[ooey]

simple - have the option to replace some missiles for long range fuel tanks like they do in real life. Then you have a trade-off situation which is up to the player. Or reandevous with a tanker aircraft...

[Patupi]

Um, apart from the tanker aircraft... isn't that what I just said? Maybe I wasn't clear?

[Gorlom]

I think he simply didnt read the posts in the thread before responding. Sometimes that happen that people get a bright idea on page one of a thread and post before reading the rest of the thread.

[anotherdevil]

aliens would probably shoot that down though... =[

[Gorlom]

How would they know what the tank is for? and if they can shoot with that much precision wouldnt they just aim for the cockpit or the engine?

[Patupi]

I think he meant the refueling tanker plane. If it was a drop tank on a fighter it'd be a bit much for them to target it that easily

[Gorlom]

Wouldnt the reason they dont shoot it down be because then they would be inrange of the interceptors that would shoot them down? and there wouldnt be any need for the tanker plane in the first palce...

Chris can we get to deploy decoy tanker planes as bait to lure the UFOs in so we can shoot them down? Like unnmanned blimps or something?

PS. I'm jokeing DS.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Gorlom

[TheTuninator]

Drop tanks are a good idea for an additional feature, but they wouldn't solve the problem that I perceive here, as adding drop tanks forces the player to sacrifice combat ability in order to get aircraft ranges up to a more playable level.

As it stands, you've basically got to write off defending Europe at all and even a decent chunk of South America if you are putting your base in NA, which in turn makes putting your base in NA just not that viable an option. The player shouldn't have to make a sacrifice to expand defensive capabilities in this situation; defensive capabilities should simply be expanded outright.