Why female soldiers

[Chris]

I don't think anyone is going to criticise us for putting women in the game given that there's a limit to the historical accuracy of any situation where aliens are invading the world. There's also a difference between "political correctness gone mad" and broadening the audience for the game (the main one being I care about the latter).

[Gauddlike]

In every type of media, equal representation of every race, sex, religion, creed, etc.. is enforced - regardless of the atmospehre, setting, conditions/circumstances or any other consideration. I find that far more insulting and condesending than not having a specific group present.

Generally that is true for most people right up until the point where it is their own group that is mysteriously missing.

It affects you in no real way to have female soldiers present but it could potentially affect many others negatively to not have them present.

An American soldier during the cold war would not have been in the same unit as a Russian national.

No British unit would have Chinese military members.

Few nations armed forces would have female members.

All of these things have been changed by the alternative history of Xenonauts.

I say few because of groups like Mossad and guerilla organisations have had female members for decades.

The Chinese peoples army had female troops in the 60's so it is conceivable they could provide them to the Xenonauts organisation.

Many European countries have had female soldiers since the 50's.

Female Xenonauts members could be drawn from these groups rather than from the SAS, for example.

I think the first woman to pass the Royal Marine Commando training and get to wear the green beret was in 2002 ish?

The only reason there are no women on the front lines is because they are not allowed to be there.

If that was not the case, for example in a world under threat from alien invasion, then that would not be a certainty.

[Leonatus]

There's also a difference between "political correctness gone mad" and broadening the audience for the game (the main one being I care about the latter).

Yeah, there's a difference, and you are very much on the pc side of things. But no worries, you're right. Nobody is going to argue against political correctness.

You put quite some work into assigning fitting military outfits to the respective names to immerse those soldiers into the real world. How will this work with the girls? Are you throwing those former assignments out or will we have Emma Wilson from the Dublin Knitting Club? Or maybe fantasy formations? USFMC? Royal Femines? Fallschürzenjäger?

Female soldiers were fine in the (then) fantasy settings of the old XCom. Had Xenonauts happened in 2020 this wouldn't be an issue but here it seems weird that you seem to work so hard to make the setting feel true with the artwork and the hardware but suddenly throw it all away, when it comes to women quotas.

Oh well, it's your decision. Especially now, as you already have my money. I probably wouldn't mind so much if you hadn't put this up for vote only to go against it later to suit a vocal minority.

[Swe_Racoon]

I don't see why this is such a big fuss, in all honestly (and I certainly don't see why it warrants personal insults and condescending tones). It might not fit the theme, and Leonatus makes a valid point with units, but I'd hardly call it "throwing it all away".

It's been 20 years since the Iceland Incident, I don't see it unlikely that nuking a UFO out of the sky which subsequently blasts a chunk out of a nation would drastically alter the way military forces work. One could say that we left "our" Cold War 20 years prior to the game, and entered the Cold War of Xenonauts.

[Guest]

Women in the first x-com game were pointless, and this whole push for the them in this game is no different. It would have been better to have more superior gameplay mechanics.

Some facts against military women

[Gauddlike]

Ace you might want to read the top few lines before relying on that page as an argument.

The author states that even he doesn't agree with the opinion he posted (and it is just an opinion) any longer and hasn't since at least 2009.

Female troops in x-com were no more or less pointless than the male ones.

They were the same and treated in the same way.

You might as well remove the male troops and say they were pointless.

Adding them back has not made any difference to the superior gameplay mechanics you would like.

Well either way this game is designed by Chris.

Ultimately the only thing that matters is that he wanted them to be in his game so there they are.

You can come up with any reason you can think of why you don't want them there but it isn't going to change anything.

[Gauddlike]

Think I have had enough of this thread as well, it is not going anywhere.

[Swe_Racoon]

Pretty much what Gauddlike said. Having served for almost a year in a unit with 25% females the only thing I can agree upon is that women are less physically able than men and struggle more. The rest has been proven wrong by my experience, or is something that the military in question (in all of the examples but one or two this being the US military) has just screwed up. Like firing people for voicing their opinions. Pretty sure that one can't be blamed on the women, and if you do then you're very, very biased to me.

[thothkins]

I agree with Swe_Racoon here. I've seen the arguments against women in the military regularly, and >shock< the majority of women are not as physically capable. But a great many of the issues here involve not the women, but the methodologies, structures, attitudes and requirements of the organisations in which they want to serve.

Oh, and women in X-Com were every bit as good as the men. I miss having them in Xenonauts. Yes, it's not realistic. Ironically, the extra steps taken to have background units and information makes this more apparent.

As for them being in Xenonauts? Well, the back story says that from it's heyday of funding in the late 50s/ early 60s the whole organisation was reduced and cut and downsized until you have your minimal starting operation. Situtions like that mean that you have to cast the net in new directions to recruit the calibre of person you want.

I can certainly see an increase in the research staff being female considering the opportunities involved. Also, combating aliens in strike missions needs certain skillsets and again, I can genuinely see Xenonauts recruiting women for some of those roles (the off cited IDF as an example).

[Chris]

X-Com games are very similar to a superhero story in many ways, where a bunch of average soldiers (after all, they survive the game by luck more than great stats) go on to do heroic things and save the world from alien invasion. Superhero movies are all about the viewer being able to live their fantasies through what they see in front of them. The fact that the modern audience for the game consists of more than just white male people means that the game is going to include them.

Political correctness gone mad? No, I'm running a business and I'd like to reach as wide an audience as possible. An overdose of chlorine in the gene pool or an overabundance of Y chromosones would make the game more historically realistic, but you can't pay people with historical realism.

I find it strange that people are willing to suspend disbelief on trifling issues like the laws of physics or humanity's ability to defeat an alien invasion in order to let us make a commercial game, but when it comes to having female characters they are not. I'd suggest that in most cases it's because they're white males already catered for in the game so don't see the value in it, but if we'd made the Xenonauts a Japanese force and all the soldiers Asian I think many might feel slightly differently. I think some even might consider not buying it.

I understand our attempts to be faithful to historically accurate can cloud the waters a bit, but really we've only attempted to be historically accurate where possible. If we're going to have a Soviet soldier in the game, we may as well give him an accurate regiment - but if historical accuracy impinges on gameplay concerns then gameplay wins out (see aircraft ranges as an example).

Leo - to answer your specific question, I imagine we'll use non-frontline regiments for the women where possible to maintain some semblance of accuracy.

[Chris]

Sorry if that came across as critical - I just want to lay out my views, in case people have misinterpreted them.

[Guest]

Ace you might want to read the top few lines before relying on that page as an argument.

The author states that even he doesn't agree with the opinion he posted (and it is just an opinion) any longer and hasn't since at least 2009.

So what if he was too spineless to defend his position? the arguments he posted are the real point of interest here.

[Kalexon]

I'm just going to say this, then duck and cover:

When people try to back up their own beliefs or the norms of there own social/cultural background by saying it's "the natural way of things" or something to that effect, 99.99% of the time they are, in fact, full of shit.

[Shima]

Hmm.. could it be possible to just add a ticker in game options [ ] Female Soldiers ON/OFF (for historical accuracy).

That might cool down anyone who disagrees with this.

[thothkins]

When people try to back up their own beliefs or the norms of there own social/cultural background by saying it's "the natural way of things" or something to that effect, 99.99% of the time they are, in fact, full of shit.

So many people are blinkered like that. I think it must be the natural way of things...oh drat.

[Gorlom]

Hmm.. could it be possible to just add a ticker in game options [ ] Female Soldiers ON/OFF (for historical accuracy).

That might cool down anyone who disagrees with this.

I expect it to cause a debate about which functions should be allowed to have a toggle.

I also expect it to end up as a mod or part of a mod sooner or later.

So many people are blinkered like that. I think it must be the natural way of things...oh drat.

Oh thothkins you little rascal.

[Davoren]

We used to have the draft here and I clearly remember thinking "damn, this is not fair. If women don't have to do it why should men? Make everybody go or nobody. WOMEN IN THE ARMY!!!one11one!!!".

Ah well...

Realistically speaking...I have no idea. It doesn't bother me one way or the other.

regards

Davoren

[Shima]

Gorlom: what other functions do you think people would want to have optional? Female Soldiers is one of the few heavily discussed, opposed, supported and not even originally planned features in the game.

Davoren: heh, your avatar seems quite appropriate

[Gorlom]

Well for one thing the manufaction for profit suggestion is the most current additional example.

I believe someone made a suggestion about auto resolving air combats and a toggleble options for that.

A toggleble options for "realistic burst fire mechanics" a la JA2 mod with numbers I can't recall atm

A toggleble options for different versions of supression.

Toggleble options for IRONMAN mode options. (only prevent saves during groundcombat)

Togglable options for different difficulty related mehcanics (increase number of aliens per map or simply make them smarter or whatnot)

A toggleble option formap outlays for submap representaation over the fog of war on a map. (I can't explain that one properly. its something Gauddlike thought of in some thread)

A toggleble options for fluff research topics or some such (stuff Chris doesn't really want to have in the game)

All I know is that there has been a few calls for "toggle options" for different ideas already.

[thothkins]

If anyone recalls the mods to Extraterrestrials, there were three or four tabs worth of toggles.

I think we'll be doing well to see all the basics in there, let alone be terribly worried about optional toggles. I'd rather they focused on getting more in there, than bothering about whether we can turn it off or not. Something for mods.

Imagine the flak they would get for adding in an optional "toggle women off" button in the vanilla version of the game. Actually, that's probably a different, more adult version of the game. But imagine the terrible press for a game to discriminate like that. Where should it end? Who should we toggle off next. It might be my monitor needing a clean, but does that Xenonaut have freckles! Gah! toggle button! toggle button!

[IceVamp]

We used to have the draft here and I clearly remember thinking "damn, this is not fair. If women don't have to do it why should men? Make everybody go or nobody. WOMEN IN THE ARMY!!!one11one!!!".

Heh, I just used to think they were lucky. Then I served and was more like "Everybody should do this for a year!!11!1"

Now, they draft more and more women every year, and quite a few sign up as well. But they usually go for rank.

Oh, and our law actually states that any person inside the Norwegian border can be drafted at any time. Their nationality, gender, colour and religion does not matter. It's never practised of course, but kinda cool.

[TrashMan]

Imagine the flak they would get for adding in an optional "toggle women off" button in the vanilla version of the game. Actually, that's probably a different, more adult version of the game. But imagine the terrible press for a game to discriminate like that. Where should it end? Who should we toggle off next. It might be my monitor needing a clean, but does that Xenonaut have freckles! Gah! toggle button! toggle button!

Honestly, you can label everything as discrimination if you want to.

If I have a game set in the mythical amazonia, would not including male amazon warrior be "discrimination"? OR would including them be even MORE discrimination?

Frankly, trying to shoehorn every race/religion/sex/whatever into every setting can easily be interpreted as a even worse kind of discrimination (if you think about it). It basicly tells you "you cannot be reasonable and rational enough to accept this". It's an apporach that assumes poeple will be short-sighted, superficial, and frankly, it's insulting to humanity as a whole.

Unfortunately it's not entirely untrue...remeber LOTR and how some people started to accuse it of racism because there weren't black people in it?

To my mind, the writer/developer is the OLNY authority that matters. Everyone else can go SFTO. If the author made a setting with mostly women, then it 's like that. Period. If he made a setting where atheism rules, religious folk should shut up. If all the characters are black, white people should shut up. If the developers make all the characters asians of black females, it's their right to do so.

And for me, accurate portrayl of human behavior is more important than any scientifical accuracy. I can accept FTL and plasma cannons. But humans acting non-human like is far mroe difficult to reconcile with.

With that said, toggles sound nice, but like everything, they carry a development cost with them. Someone has to spend time to code it in. Resources. They arne't infinite.

Edited June 1, 2012 by TrashMan

[Gazz]

Hmm.. could it be possible to just add a ticker in game options [ ] Female Soldiers ON/OFF

Only if there's also a checkbox for

[ ] Male Soldiers ON/OFF

If you turn off both you get an army of shemales.

[TrashMan]

What about a furry option?

[Chris]

Meh, yeah. Anyway, I think at this point, we'll say case closed. I think everyone has said their piece (as they are entitled to do), and our decision on the matter has been made so I don't see there being much value in further discussion.