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Ground Combat Balance - V21 Experimental 5


Chris

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I hope GH would tone down the colors too. The screen looks way too busy. Also, some work could be done in impositioning.

I also hope we'll get more freedom to mod the now hard coded text colors before the game launches.. (not just debtrefing but all over the game)

Edited by Skitso
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Thought from reading this thread:

1) People are correct to point out the heavy weapon penalty is no longer needed. I'm going to remove that in the next build, because it was never easily understood or well explained before. The TU % system means we don't need to worry about a high-level soldier being able to fire a machinegun or a sniper rifle multiple times a turn and wreck everyone.

2) We've officially decided to give the Predator a TU reduction for the LMG-class weapons when they are using them. It can cost about 80% TU to fire for a soldier (now without heavy weapon penalty) but for a Predator we can reduce that to 40-55%, depending on whether we want to allow a Predator to fire one or two bursts a turn.

3) If reaction fire is acting weird, please prove specifics on the situation. What the alien race / rank was, what weapon they had and how many shots they fired. Perhaps suppression isn't affecting them properly?

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Entirely different topic: maps!

Is the map design supposed to support fairly easy access for tanks? I've just completed a terror map which required my tank to go pretty much right around the map to get to a particular area because of a few cars and a bus. It's not a problem, per se, but I wasn't sure if this is something you were trying to avoid and on this particular map it could be cured by moving a car a square or two.

Pic:

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Entirely different topic: maps!

Is the map design supposed to support fairly easy access for tanks? I've just completed a terror map which required my tank to go pretty much right around the map to get to a particular area because of a few cars and a bus. It's not a problem, per se, but I wasn't sure if this is something you were trying to avoid and on this particular map it could be cured by moving a car a square or two.

Pic:

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I've run into maps that aren't AFV friendly too. You don't have a lot of choices on those other than blowing up the vehicle. Maybe if cars were crushable?
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Overall, I'm fairly happy with the current Ground Combat balance. I'm playing E 5 with the optional balance patch. The toned down aliens seem "right" to me and my guys aren't too overwelming either. There are some big bugs that definitely need fixing, but that's not stopping me from enjoying the game.

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On Terror Missions

I've done a lot more terror missions now, and I re-iterate my earlier comments on alien formations. There's too much pasta and not enough sauce. Terror Sites are a prime opportunity for the game to show off new aliens and this is especially true for specific "Terror" aliens like the Reaper or Large Drone. At the moment the new aliens are token in presence - they almost feel miniboss-like in the way they're presented but that doesn't work because unlike minibosses they die pretty quickly to a hail of bullets. A single Reaper would be scary if there were targets for it to infect, but as the civvies are over with the Xeno squaddies, that single Reaper gets its ass blown away very quickly.

If Drones and Psions are the Hot New Thing for Corvette Terror Sites, then please, let's see more than 2 of them. I'd prefer that secondary races constitute at least a quarter of any Terror Site equipped ship (enroute or at site), just so there are the numbers to stand up to focussed fire.

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On Terror Missions

A single Reaper would be scary if there were targets for it to infect, but as the civvies are over with the Xeno squaddies, that single Reaper gets its ass blown away very quickly.

I somewhat agree, but I certainly don't want to go back to the days where you landed and just holed up in Chinook because you were surrounded by aliens. As far as the Reaper having no "targets". My feeling is that there ought to a lot more civilians on the terror maps, dispersed evenly, but smart enough to run toward the Chinook or Xenonauts, if they can see them. Otherwise they should hide somewhere when possible. I also think the AI ought have a search function (they look in buildings, etc..) to find hiding civilians if it isn't fighting the Xenonauts. After all, that's what they're there for right? Right now, they only attack the civilians they can actually see, but they won't go out of their way to actually find them.
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On Terror Missions

I've done a lot more terror missions now, and I re-iterate my earlier comments on alien formations. There's too much pasta and not enough sauce. Terror Sites are a prime opportunity for the game to show off new aliens and this is especially true for specific "Terror" aliens like the Reaper or Large Drone. At the moment the new aliens are token in presence - they almost feel miniboss-like in the way they're presented but that doesn't work because unlike minibosses they die pretty quickly to a hail of bullets. A single Reaper would be scary if there were targets for it to infect, but as the civvies are over with the Xeno squaddies, that single Reaper gets its ass blown away very quickly.

If Drones and Psions are the Hot New Thing for Corvette Terror Sites, then please, let's see more than 2 of them. I'd prefer that secondary races constitute at least a quarter of any Terror Site equipped ship (enroute or at site), just so there are the numbers to stand up to focussed fire.

Not sure I entirely agree with regards to Reapers - I had a terror mission where there were already a few by the time I had encountered them and they did a good job of devastating my squad. Part of this might be my tactics (I've had trouble with Reapers before), but 'Reaper Tag' isn't as easy to stop as I'd like (I've found Reapers far more scary than Chrysalids ever were in any version of XCOM!).

Possibly depends on the map/alien placement therefore?

(On the other hand, the larger Drones suck. Indeed, I'm not sure whether there's a bug/AI problem: the one's I encounter don't seem to do anything).

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Ah, perhaps I should make my stance a little more clear. I'm not advocating an increase in overall numbers (there are sufficent), or a change in position (we've been through that already) but a change in the makeup of the existing numbers. The primary races should form the basic ingredients of a Terror Site, but it's a suffcient portion of secondary races that brings the receipe alive.

...damn, I'm hungry now.

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I completely agree with Max here. Each scout could already have one light drone as as small sample before having 2 of them in cruisers and 4-5 in each terror site. Reapers could start appearing one at a time at cruiser crash sites and in packs at terror sites. I'd go as far as mix and match one or two androns in with sebillian or caesan crews, even on crash sites...?

Edited by Skitso
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I think their minimum accuracy is too high. I've noticed that Light Drones don't have a problem blazing away when in close range (and that makes them terrifying - a single light drone can kill a vet in Wolf armour through weight of fire), but don't like long range shooting.

Edited by Max_Caine
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I think their minimum accuracy is too high. I've noticed that Light Drones don't have a problem blazing away when in close range (and that makes them terrifying - a single light drone can kill a vet in Wolf armour through weight of fire), but don't like long range shooting.
That could be it. They also don't seem to be very aggressive. Are they supposed to be sneaky or mindless killing machines like the Androns?
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Well, Chris did consider drones for armour.
Yeah, this would be a tough call for me. They have no fear, but if they just charge they are more then likely to get destroyed before they do much since they are fairly flimsy. They aren't as tough has Sebillans or Andron which use the aggressive AI, but are fairly useless if they aren't out shooting. Hmmm... The best thing might be to set their minimum accuracy to 1%, and AI to defensive, so they shoot at anything even remotely within range while trying to stay in cover.
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Drones are suppression units, so they need to stay back as they are quite fragile. Chris & co. just needs to up their willingness to shoot greatly - even with low hit probability.

To be honest, I'm not quite sure what the advantage to a minimum shot % for AI is anyway.

I was having a look at the values last night and all of them seem to be 30%+. That seems quite high and a good way of stopping aliens from taking shots at all, especially against targets in cover.

The only advantage to not taking shots that I can think of is that it saves TUs for reaction fire which might (*might*) grant a better shot if an opponent moves. But this is fairly situational (and totally expoitable, by shooting at AI from cover first to draw reaction fire then moving other soldiers). In contrast, just taking a shot 1) might get a lucky hit; and 2) will cause suppression damage anyway (and it only takes one-two shots for Xenontauts to get suppressed, at least early game).

I guess this could interact with other parts of the alien AI (if the minimum shot % is very low, it might stop them moving/repositioning in favour of poor shots?), but I've not often seen the AI move anyway (except, I guess, 'agressive' AI types which run around fine!) while I've seen a lot of aliens sit there and do nothing (possibly because they don't have any good shots?).

(I just lost my last game - yes, I lost - so I'm starting a new game with the minimum shot threshold down to see if it makes a difference.)

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Turns out there's a bug with light drones tied to the fact they're only armed with burst fire weapons that makes them inordinately passive.

Kabill, the point of the minimum shot threshold is to stop aliens just shooting at your men from maximum range with lots of shots that have a very low chance of hitting. A higher setting encourages them to get in closer and actually kill your men.

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Kabill, the point of the minimum shot threshold is to stop aliens just shooting at your men from maximum range with lots of shots that have a very low chance of hitting. A higher setting encourages them to get in closer and actually kill your men.

Ths makes sense. Maybe the issue I have is that I've not often seen this happen in practice: there's a strong tendency for the AI to avoid moving more than a tile or two which is fine when it takes shots, but not so much when it doesn't do anything.

This said, I can't be certain this isn't more to do with suppression than anything else (I'm struggling to recall an instance of alien passivity that didn't involve suppression at the moment). So minimum shot chance may well have utterly nothing to do with it.

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Turns out there's a bug with light drones tied to the fact they're only armed with burst fire weapons that makes them inordinately passive.
Many builds ago when they were working correctly they were a nightmare to fight because of the "machinegun" plasma they threw out. I remember losing almost an entire squad to one light drone.
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