Different types of shotgun ammo

[cyllan]

Cyllan, adding lots of weapons does not make a good game. Putting in the right number of weapons makes a good game. There's a reason why you don't see cars driving around with 19 wheels on them. There's no point.

If you want to mod in a million different weapons that do almost exactly the same thing and are useless beyond the first 20% of the game, be my guest. It's not difficult. But I'm not going to do it. I'm going to do as you suggest - spend my time developing the game.

I appreciate this is the first time you've pre-ordered a game and I'm grateful you've done it with us (especially as a premium pre-orderer), but there wasn't much of a selection of basic weapons in X-Com either so the fact you've only got a mere seven starting weapons to choose from doesn't really count as cutting a feature. There's a lot more guns in our game than there was in X-Com.

i never said lots of weapons, i just said different ammunition types with diferent stats and animation, i am not asking for a "final fantasy " FMV looks, or millions of weapons, but i think 1kind of shotgun ammo and animation is too short, shotguns are for breaching so they need to be very effective in that role, otherwise we are going to play the "come here baby we are going to snipe you one at a time" game........

[Gauddlike]

You are assuming there that that will be an effective tactic.

Aliens will have different AI and therefore different reactions than in the game you are thinking of.

You are also assuming that different types of shotgun ammo will be a good way to alter that situation.

One type of ammo that is effective against the enemy is surely better than several different ones that may or may not be effective?

Shotguns are powerful and have medium range.

THAT makes them effective at what they do, not extra ammunition types and animations.

What exactly would these other shot types do that the current implementation doesn't?

It hits the enemy hard, is easy to use (no ammo micro management) and can be carried by anyone.

If you want to spread damage over an area then use a rocket, grenade or flamethrower.

If you want shorter range but more versatility use a pistol.

For longer range or burst fire use one of the rifles or machine gun.

All of the weapons have situations in which they are useful.

[Gorlom]

i never said lots of weapons, i just said different ammunition types with diferent stats and animation.......

You're contradicting yourself.

[plucx]

I totally agree with chris about the number of weapon required to make the game work.

Using a gun does not change you in alien, unless it's does that to the target

Like Nietze said : If you fight evil, you should take care that you do not become evil yourself. The abyss looks back at you means that when you begin to know somthing that is fundamentally different from yourself, you take a piece of it with you and it changes you and vice versa.

You can see it as role play or story line, but this is generally true. As much as gun powder and Horse changed the lifes of the Native in america it would do the exact same thing to modern civilisation if it were to be exposed to vastly more advanced tech.

[cyllan]

wow, the lack of support to my simple ideas is unbeliable in this forum ........ as i said i dont expect AAA graphics or super animations,

however a close combat weapon should have anti armour ammo and standard ammo....... it isnt too much to expect that , and by the way rocket launchers/grenade dont work if your enemy is 2 tiles away......... completely absurd , and you should know this GAUDLIKE.

and i am not contradicting myself at all GORLOM, if you think a flamethrower or a grenade are good close rrange weapons you are going to get a shock...... but anyway we will see..........

and for your info a lot of aliens have very high resistance to normal damage and fire damage, so if you think incendiary stuff is going to work u r in for a surprise, i cant remember killing many aliens with fire weapons in x-com, not even grenades if they had alien armour............

anyway i will leave the sycophantic fan boys alone, just dont come crying if this game doesnt sell too well and the company closes down....... cant take criticism of any type........ a joke

Edited February 2, 2012 by cyllan

[Jean-Luc]

How do you expect people to take you seriously? You speak like a raving madman, you posts are chaotic and illiterate, no capitalization, random spaces and paragraphs, random rows of "........", incomplete punctuation. You're inconsiderate and insulting. You show no consideration or willingness to understand aspects of game design that make things as they are. Most of the things you say make no sense, let's see:

however a close combat weapon should have anti armour ammo and standard ammo.......

Why? There is no standard or armour piercing ammo in Xenonauts. These ammo properties are inherent to the weapons themselves which, among other things, provides each weapon with a role. Some have higher armour penetration like the sniper while others are average or weaker in this regard like the assault rifle or pistol.

The shotgun fills the role of a high damage, short range weapon. It does this by having high damage and short effective range. Why isn't this good enough for you? What's missing? If you thing the shotgun is too weak make a suggestion to increase it damage and/or armour penetration. The game is still in alpha after all and balance issues can be corrected.

and for your info a lot of aliens have very high resistance to normal damage and fire damage, so if you think incendiary stuff is going to work u r in for a surprise, i cant remember killing many aliens with fire weapons in x-com, not even grenades if they had alien armour............

This is a different game. Properties from X-Com aren't magically going to transfer to Xenonauts. You can't use alleged balance issues of one game to comment on balance in another.

You need to not argue for things just for the sake of your ego and you need to think things through more carefully before you speak. Game design is a lot more delicate than most people realize and making assumptions with insufficient information (shotgun doesn't work, flamethrower is too weak) doesn't lead to viable ideas.

Your insult is out of place because many adjustments have been made based on community feedback and "criticism". The issue lies in your behavior and presentation. I've made quite a few suggestions myself that were either shot down or just plain ignored (not commented upon) but you don't see me going into fits of rage, do you? So, you know, try to be a bit more calculated and constructive.

[Gorlom]

wow, the lack of support to my simple ideas is unbeliable in this forum ........ as i said i dont expect AAA graphics or super animations,

however a close combat weapon should have anti armour ammo and standard ammo....... it isnt too much to expect that , and by the way rocket launchers/grenade dont work if your enemy is 2 tiles away......... completely absurd , and you should know this GAUDLIKE.

Then take a step forward and punch him. This game is going to have a melee mode for every weapon as far as I know. Possibly you have a stun baton in your backpack.

and i am not contradicting myself at all GORLOM,

Yes you were. a weapon where the stats and animation change if you load another kind of ammo into it is essentially a different weapon from a gamemechanic point of view. It just happens to use the same model as another weapon.

You aren't considering this from gamemechanics at all you are just suggesting what you think is cool completly disregarding any sense this would make or the balanceing aspect of it. That's why you're not getting any support. You're not thinking it through beyond "this would be cool".

if you think a flamethrower or a grenade are good close rrange weapons you are going to get a shock...... but anyway we will see..........

Uhm... a flamethrower IS a good closerange weapon. Its limited range makes it somewhat useless at long range... did you mean to say rocketlauncher? And weren't we discussing weaponloadouts for a shotgun? What are you talking about? What does rocketlaunchers flamethrowers and grenades have to do with what we are discussing? I'm starting to think you're trolling.

and for your info a lot of aliens have very high resistance to normal damage and fire damage, so if you think incendiary stuff is going to work u r in for a surprise, i cant remember killing many aliens with fire weapons in x-com, not even grenades if they had alien armour............

Oh dear. now you're just pulling stuff out of your a... sorry I meant to say hat. This isn't X-com. Stop deciding what kind of mechanics this game has when its finished. none of what you said here has been implemented and you do not know that they will be, you just assume they will in a way you want them to so as they validate your opinion.

anyway i will leave the sycophantic fan boys alone, just dont come crying if this game doesnt sell too well and the company closes down....... cant take criticism of any type........ a joke

I'm speechless that you think this game would fall because weapons that serve no purpose arent included. You have not in any way managed to motivate the redundant weapons you want in the game. We have the shotgun for close to medium range. why would we need it to be able to fire anything other then what it is already fireing? It might be cool but you need to start motivating takeing time from other feautures getting implemented to get this included.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Gorlom

[plucx]

Maybe the guys were a bit cynical and I don't think they meant to be harsh. Let's say I worked their patience a little on the same topic but on another angle.

I'm glad you express you opinion but maybe you got a little harsh. I confes I did answer quickly but I will make ammend here.

One of my arguments were exactly the same as your's but let me go deeper:

Close combat weapon should have AP and Spread damage.

Some numbers:

Slug shell does 30 Damage

Shot shell spread 3 pellets doing 10 damage each.

Wich one does the more damage?

Answer : None.

Why?

Because of accuracy and Damage mitigation.

The Shot shell spread 3 bullets doing 10 pts of damage each. You have a better chance of hitting something mid range but a lower % of doing full damage. Also if the target is not Soft (Ie Armored) the damage will be reduced for each hit. A mitigation 10 armor will then negate all damage taken wich is coherent in RL and in game.

The Slug is less accurate and is less likely to hit a target mid/short range. However, it will do a full 30 damage and will decimate armored units even if it is not a piercing round.

On the tactical level these ammo can add to the versatility of the shotgun weapon.

Shot ammo improve the possibility to damage a target while slug reduce the accuracy but increase the damage.

More weapons:

I do not want more basic weapon since the selection screen would become quite cramped and by experience, the munition type has more impact (pun here) than the weapon itself.

Rifle are a bullet delivery system.

If you get the best gun in your armory you just need ammo types for flexibility.

Let's take the rocket launcher as an example:

A rocket is a delivery system propelled at "X" speed by a controlled/directed explosion. You can be surprise by how many charge types you can put in thoses and they are made to be that way.

The RPG is one such weapon system. Lighter than Nato weapon of the same types, it is also more rugged and the warhead can have larger shape without having to modify the launcher itself.

Nato lauchers are more precise but sacrifice versatility a bit by having the warhead inside the launcher. The launcher is heavier, the rocket is heavier and the shape has to stay the same or it won't fit.

Do you really want to have both launchers types in a squad? I would not like it because you can't swap munition.

Now lets compare assault rifle:

In 1970-1980 these weapons were presents:

NATO

Fn-Fal 7.62 mm (300m effective range)

M-16 5.56 mm (550m effective range)

Warsaw

Ak-47 7.62 mm (400m effective range)

Ak-74 5.45 mm (625m effective range)

Interesting fact here is that the heavy caliber assault rifle are less precise.

Now what is your pick? I could list a thousand weapon, each with a tons of items and mods and so and so. The point is to chose a weapon for your team so bullets are exchangeable. The m-249 as been made to address this and the need for a lightweight machinegun. What ever you do, it always revolve on the bullet/warhead.

We can compare weapon types in X-Com and Xeno:

X-Com

Pistol ----------------- Pistol

Rifle ------------------ Rifle

Auto-Cannon ---------- Machine gun

Cannon --------------- Sharpshooter rifle or Shotgun

Launcher ------------- Launcher

The machine gun is the big change here since the machine gun does not fire various munition types wich were handy against the right alien.

Cannon were not precise, and their ammo was not effective enough to be wort it, exept for the incendiary that made it a good way to light up a building that could not be light up with a flare. Shot gun are maybe a better spiritual sucessor and more effective in their role.

Launcher are not as effective since they do not fire several munition types. Incendiary were usefull to kill ennemies weak to it or to light-up (pun) dark places. It also made sure that aliens in the zone were going to be damaged if they completed their turn there. It's a spash damage warhead that is persistant, light the place and do so without destroying most of the walls. Heavy rocket and small rocket had their use in how much weight/dmg you wanted. Enabling you to carry a pistol with ammo without having to sacrifice TU as much.

Edited February 3, 2012 by plucx

[plucx]

Gaudlike :

Shotguns are powerful and have medium range.

THAT makes them effective at what they do, not extra ammunition types and animations.

What exactly would these other shot types do that the current implementation doesn't?

It hits the enemy hard, is easy to use (no ammo micro management) and can be carried by anyone.

If you want to spread damage over an area then use a rocket, grenade or flamethrower.

If you want shorter range but more versatility use a pistol.

For longer range or burst fire use one of the rifles or machine gun.

All of the weapons have situations in which they are useful.

Let me answer your question from my point of view:

Shotguns are powerful and have medium range.

Yes we agree

THAT makes them effective at what they do, not extra ammunition types

Ammunition is meant to be versatile in these weapon, thats why they are called SHOT guns. Varied shots and effect fot the same weapon. Farmers love them.

and animations.

If you add several bullet types for a weapon you do not need to make more different weapon frames for the same effect. Let say you are about to complete the game but did not do the explosive rifle frame for every angle. to test it out you can use the explosive gun code linked with the shotgun art. The same goes on diversity. Let say you want a middle game weapon that is mid range but deliver a stun bullet. Well, instead of doing all the art for this weapon you just have to put the shogun art as a reference in the coding and there you go. To explain stuff you just have to say earthling used a primitive weapon to deliver a nasty stun pea bag. Like rambo using explosives arrows (siily but hey, it's rambo).

It hits the enemy hard,//and can be carried by anyone.

The shotgun does hit the ennemy hard, we aggree.

is easy to use (no ammo micro management)

Munition swap is part ofthe shotgun deal. That's why some hunter prefer the dual cannon.

In a way, the shotgun give you versatility and if you got intel you can be more effective by adapting your ammo.

If you want to spread damage over an area then use a rocket, grenade or flamethrower.

I'm not talking about spreading damage on a area (did I ?) and splash damage in close range is for amateur. I'm talking about bullet effect. It's a math thing, look other post.

If you want shorter range but more versatility use a pistol.

Not so because of damage mitigation.

For longer range or burst fire use one of the rifles or machine gun.

I totally agree, my arguments never were about changing the range of this weapon to compete with other weapon in their own field and the range argument I made was to give an idea of the real range of the weapon in RL, wich have to be adapted in this game.

All of the weapons have situations in which they are useful.

I totally agree, that's why different bullet type were developped over the years so to better adapt a weapon to a situation or give it more flexibility in a changing environment.

[Gorlom]

Pluxc would the difference in your suggestion really make it worth the time to code it? I'm not sure I get your suggestion because the way I understand it, it's not really any change gameplay wise. It only changes the mechanic (which I think the game doesnt even support the way its coded currently).

It looks like the whole point of the additional ammo is to have additional ammo because that's what you expect haveing a shotgun is all about?

[plucx]

Mecanic wise it would help a lot to get it modded easely if the munition could change the weapon behavior. As Chris raplied earlier, he is considering the option.

I understand you viewpoint on the munition type being hard coded the other way around. However, later on, modders will bring that up and the answer will be "we got it in reverse and it's to late to code back".

I'm not the only one to ask for variety in weapon effect. What if a modder want to implement explosive bullets in a weapon. If the code is done like you say, well he won't be able. He will need to write a new weapon, add it to the library wich will cramp the armory.

Allowing munition variety will streamline overall modding since there wont be a need to add a new weapon class that represent many art files in the library. Modders started to add stuff in games when it's not too much of a pain or when the game was out a long time ago. Right now you are saying to me the game does not have both (yet).

The weapon variety is a recurrent question, so why not leaving the variety part to the modders. As long as the bullet can be edited to change weapon behavior, it will help a lot adding effect to these weapons. Let say I make a mod for the rocket launcher to have Nuke rocket in it. Well I will have to copy all the launcher frames, add it to the library. Same goes for napalm rockets, he rockets, sniper rifle rounds, shot guns rounds.

In the end, there is the copyright that get in the boat too. Let say I copy the art to put it in another folder, mixt to colors a bit to make it different. The result is then disrespecfull for the artist. Usually people get to the easiest path and that is it.

I think mods will cramp out the armory so much that weapon mods will become infamous just for that.

Finally, I carried on the shotgun ammunition argument mostly because I see a potential in munition moddability.

On the Shot shell argument, the slight gain in hit ratio is worth it, especially in early game. The damage spread make it less effective against armored ennemies and that means the player can't use it for everything. Also, better hit ratio doe's not mean range.

PS

I term of Beta testing, it might be interesting to have several ammo of the same types but with diffrent attributes to test out different dmg types or effect. In the end , you could test a lot more munition types in one session than the other way around, thus neglecting the time spent coding back and getting a better product mod wise.

Edited February 3, 2012 by plucx

[anotherdevil]

Launcher are not as effective since they do not fire several munition types. Incendiary were usefull to kill ennemies weak to it or to light-up (pun) dark places. It also made sure that aliens in the zone were going to be damaged if they completed their turn there. It's a spash damage warhead that is persistant, light the place and do so without destroying most of the walls. Heavy rocket and small rocket had their use in how much weight/dmg you wanted. Enabling you to carry a pistol with ammo without having to sacrifice TU as much.

In Xenonauts there are a variety of rocket types, and will be more as you research more

[Gorlom]

Mecanic wise it would help a lot to get it modded easely if the munition could change the weapon behavior. As Chris raplied earlier, he is considering the option.

I understand you viewpoint on the munition type being hard coded the other way around. However, later on, modders will bring that up and the answer will be "we got it in reverse and it's to late to code back".

I'm not the only one to ask for variety in weapon effect. What if a modder want to implement explosive bullets in a weapon. If the code is done like you say, well he won't be able. He will need to write a new weapon, add it to the library wich will cramp the armory.

Allowing munition variety will streamline overall modding since there wont be a need to add a new weapon class that represent many art files in the library. Modders started to add stuff in games when it's not too much of a pain or when the game was out a long time ago. Right now you are saying to me the game does not have both (yet).

The weapon variety is a recurrent question, so why not leaving the variety part to the modders. As long as the bullet can be edited to change weapon behavior, it will help a lot adding effect to these weapons. Let say I make a mod for the rocket launcher to have Nuke rocket in it. Well I will have to copy all the launcher frames, add it to the library. Same goes for napalm rockets, he rockets, sniper rifle rounds, shot guns rounds.

In the end, there is the copyright that get in the boat too. Let say I copy the art to put it in another folder, mixt to colors a bit to make it different. The result is then disrespecfull for the artist. Usually people get to the easiest path and that is it.

I think mods will cramp out the armory so much that weapon mods will become infamous just for that.

Finally, I carried on the shotgun ammunition argument mostly because I see a potential in munition moddability.

On the Shot shell argument, the slight gain in hit ratio is worth it, especially in early game. The damage spread make it less effective against armored ennemies and that means the player can't use it for everything. Also, better hit ratio doe's not mean range.

PS

I term of Beta testing, it might be interesting to have several ammo of the same types but with diffrent attributes to test out different dmg types or effect. In the end , you could test a lot more munition types in one session than the other way around, thus neglecting the time spent coding back and getting a better product mod wise.

Now that was a constructive post that really argues your case! (much more then I've seen from every one else) I APPROVE!

[cyllan]

jean luc===== pathetic response......, "raving like a madman"? just because i want to see some variations on weapons and ammo?

sad , sad ....., instead of getting the developers to improve the game you go with a sypophantic response like " a shotgun is a shotgun",

you can fill the insides with whatever payload you want , armor piercing or buckshot....... didnt you know that?

x-com analogies is the closest thing we have to compare..... since the game is based on it and i dont remember any xcom clones worth the time to play

maybe you should change your avatar , you r nothing like jean luc picard...... he knew at least where to shoot his torpedoes.....

is my grammar understandable to you or do you need a translation?

Edited February 3, 2012 by cyllan

[cyllan]

Now that was a constructive post that really argues your case! (much more then I've seen from every one else) I APPROVE!

gorlom , a lot of game decisions dont need precise mathematics and long posts to be constructive, most of the time you have to calculate if a change is worthy or not first..... then you code it, or not, i am a firm believer in ammo types i, can even bypass the animations..... or the lack of women soldiers..... my point is if you have to take many hits to kill aliens in the first half of the game with the right weapons (sniper rifle, close shotgun, etc) is going to impact game play big time..... remember xcom lasers were totally pointless, we went to plasma rifles research asap........ and rocket launchers were awfull too..... specially incendiary.... somepeople call this RAVING AND TROLLING , i see this as common sense , specially as the game is still alpha, and for $29 dolars a piece i think we deserve some cool and usefull features, you cant use grenades or rockets at short range, melee weapons hasnt worked ever in any game... only xcom and it was too risky, and flamethrowers are just too short range and ap expensive and damage uncertain.......

instead of just making excuses and flaming me as if this was my first game ( i 've been playing games for 25years ) we should make sure the weapons are varied and customable...... if you think an alien in alien armour is going to die of a plain shotgun or a flamethrower shot you r in for a big surprise.....

regards

Edited February 3, 2012 by cyllan

[anotherdevil]

jean luc===== pathetic response......, "raving like a madman"? just because i want to see some variations on weapons and ammo?

No I think the 'raving like a madman' bit was because of your sentence structure, use of punctuation, grammar, and inability to forward logical arguments =p

sad , sad ....., instead of getting the developers to improve the game you go with a sypophantic response like " a shotgun is a shotgun",

Don't know what a 'sypophantic' is, is that someone who is into frantic sci-fi? or a fan of sci-fi tics?

And here again you have said that the developer need to do this to improve the game, but not why they need to, or why it would be an improvement. Only that it would. Now that's your opinion, and that's fine, but it's not convincing anyone

you can fill the insides with whatever payload you want , armor piercing or buckshot....... didnt know that?

Can I fill it with jellybeans? Or my finger? How about an elephant? What do you mean no, you said whatever payload you (read: I) want!

x-com analogies is the closest thing we have to compare..... since the game is based on it and i dont remember any xcom clones worth the time to play

Personal opinion again. Cyllan, you have the Xenonauts alpha, why don't you try using some of the guns and ammo types in the game, then come back to us

maybe you should change your avatar , you r nothing like jean luc picard...... he knew at least where to shoot his torpedoes.....

Is that a sexual reference? I don't think flirting with him is going to help your cause, but you can try... =p

is my grammar understandable to you or do you need a translation?

Well lets see:

- odd use of the equals sign

- ellipsis is supposed to be 3 dots long, doesn't usually end in a comma

- bad sentence structure

- don't normally have a space on both sides of a comma

- again with the ellipsis followed by comma

- comma after a quote mark, at the end of the sentence

- space either side of comma again

- and again

- r is not a word

- excessive and incorrect use of the ellipsis, quite a few times actually

- not the best spelling or syntax

But other than that, everything's perfect =]

But seriously Cyllan, you need to come up with why you think this should be adopted. What we want is an argument for the inclusion, not someone who just says it must be so or the game (which we have all paid for) is going to be sh...ugar puffs! That's basically like saying that we have all decided to spend our money on a pile of turd, and then rubbing our faces in it.

[Gorlom]

sad , sad ....., instead of getting the developers to improve the game you go with a sypophantic response like " a shotgun is a shotgun",

did you mean sycophantic?

you can fill the insides with whatever payload you want , armor piercing or buckshot....... didnt know that?

He is quite aware of that yes, the issue is not that you can in real life. The issue is that some of us see it as pointless and redundant. Do you really need it? Would it be worth less of other feautures to implement it?

x-com analogies is the closest thing we have to compare..... since the game is based on it and i dont remember any xcom clones worth the time to play

While it is the closest thing you can't act as if it is the same thing.

maybe you should change your avatar , you r nothing like jean luc picard...... he knew at least where to shoot his torpedoes.....

This bit is just strange... Probably sounded better in your head.

is my grammar understandable to you or do you need a translation?

Understandable, but could still use some improvement. Using the line of dots much less for example

gorlom , a lot of game decisions dont need precise mathematics and long posts to be constructive,

It wasn't because of the math that I liked his post it was becasue he could acctually motivate what it was he wanted unlike you. I'm not even sure what math you are refereing to? There isn't any in the post that I said i approved of.

most of the time you have to calculate if a change is worthy or not first.....

But, you aren't even doing that? You are just arbitrarily deciding the game needs more tier 1 weapons. Then get upset when people doesn't agree.

then you code it, or not, i am a firm believer in ammo types i, can even bypass the animations..... or the lack of women soldiers..... my point is if you have to take many hits to kill aliens in the first half of the game with the right weapons (sniper rifle, close shotgun, etc) is going to impact game play big time.....

That's why you balance damage dealt and AP costs of fireing weapons in the beta.

remember xcom lasers were totally pointless, we went to plasma rifles research asap........ and rocket launchers were awfull too..... specially incendiary....

An opinion you are entitled to I'm not going to say they were perfect but that has nothing to do with the ammount of weapons in Xenonauts. we already have more weapons (planned) in Xenonauts then in X-com.

somepeople call this RAVING AND TROLLING , i see this as common sense , specially as the game is still alpha.

regards

Ironically I see this as the lack of common sense. Any sense at all really.

Since the game is still in alpha it is far from balanced and why would the game use X-coms numbers instead of makeing it's own to fit with the numbr and functions of weapons? You are makeing alot of assumptions that are completly out there.

Edited February 3, 2012 by Gorlom

[anotherdevil]

gorlom , a lot of game decisions dont need precise mathematics and long posts to be constructive, most of the time you have to calculate if a change is worthy or not first..... then you code it, or not, i am a firm believer in ammo types i, can even bypass the animations..... or the lack of women soldiers..... my point is if you have to take many hits to kill aliens in the first half of the game with the right weapons (sniper rifle, close shotgun, etc) is going to impact game play big time..... remember xcom lasers were totally pointless, we went to plasma rifles research asap........ and rocket launchers were awfull too..... specially incendiary.... somepeople call this RAVING AND TROLLING , i see this as common sense , specially as the game is still alpha.

regards

I liked the laser weapons, and used the rocket launchers frequently. Luckily we have both of those types of weapon (can you build lasers?) in the Alpha of Xenonauts, so you can always give them a go. And then you can suggest ways of improving them, whether as a whole, or each weapon individually =]

[cyllan]

another devil.

the answer is very simple , flechettes, (not jello) have good anti armour properties, buckshot obviously doesnt

apart from that i have no time to reply to BS about grammar and punctuation or spaces around commas, tell me what country you are from and i will tell you how many complete analphabets there are....

sicophantic, means somebody who follows another and in plain terms is blind/incapable/unwilling of challenging any decision made by the leader....... think of your favorite dictator or religious fanatic, and you get my drift.

[Gorlom]

the answer is very simple , flechettes, (not jello) have good anti armour properties, buckshot obviously doesnt

But the ingame shotgun is fireing a slug not a buckshot.

apart from that i have no time to reply to BS about grammar and punctuation or spaces around commas, tell me what country you are from and i will tell you how many complete analphabets there are....

The bit under his avatar says he is from New Zealand.

The bit under my name reveals that I'm from Sweden.

sicophantic, means somebody who follows another and in plain terms is blind/incapable/unwilling of challenging any decision made by the leader....... think of your favorite dictator or religious fanatic, and you get my drift.

and that's not really what sycophantic means.

A sycophant is a yes sayer, a brownnoser, asskisser or someone thats trying to gain favour by excessive compliments etc. "unwilling" might fit but blind and incapable doesn't imo.

wiktionary link: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sycophant

I'm not really sure why you phrase it like that mentioning dictators and religious fanatics. unneeded (and wrong) and only escalates the harsh tone in the argument. It's like you want us to be annoyed at you and rude towards you. (Are you absolutely sure you aren't trolling?)

Edited February 3, 2012 by Gorlom

[cyllan]

well good for you, still i can give you 5 billion people on this planet who write /talk english a lot worse than me, so the quips about my grammar , lexicon, and where i put the commas is at best unnecessary, and doesnt help my point which is xenonauts

[anotherdevil]

another devil.

My name has no space in it, just FYI

the answer is very simple , flechettes, (not jello) have good anti armour properties, buckshot obviously doesnt

My understanding of flechette ammo is it is good against soft target, not armoured ones. All those tiny pieces wouldn't penetrate armour at all. And how is that relevant anyway? Xenonauts doesn't have buckshot, it has slug ammo if anything.

apart from that i have no time to reply to BS about grammar and punctuation or spaces around commas, tell me what country you are from and i will tell you how many complete analphabets there are....

If you have no time then why ask about it? I live in New Zealand. I come from 2 different countries in Europe, and was born in a third. And I don't want anything to do with an ANALphabet thank you very much. I don't roll that way =p

sicophantic, means somebody who follows another and in plain terms is blind/incapable/unwilling of challenging any decision made by the leader....... think of your favorite dictator or religious fanatic, and you get my drift.

So either you are calling Jean-Luc a dictator, or Chris one. Either way he isn't blindly following, as he said so himself not too long ago, he himself made some suggestions of changes that may or may not have been accepted. I can personally vouch for this.

[cyllan]

i think is time for me to go back to replaying ufo AI..... a lot more fun that arguing moat points , best of luck to Chris i said what i think will make the game better and that is all.

[Gorlom]

Probably for the best. We buried the only usefull post with a bit of garbage argueing because you can't understand our points, coherently express your point or properly motivate your wanting more shotgun ammo (read: essentially weapons) because you think the weapons weren't balanced properly in another game.

With that I'm going to post a link to Plucx's post in the hope that people will read that and understand it instead of all this inane argueing.

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php?866-Different-types-of-shotgun-ammo&p=10737&viewfull=1#post10737

Edited February 3, 2012 by Gorlom

[Gauddlike]

Good post plucx, I really do understand where you are coming from and agree that it is a great feature to have available for modders.

I still don't feel it is important for the vanilla game to implement but I am with you on more mod support wherever available.

Most of the post you replied to above (post #59) was actually in reply to someone else so don't worry if you don't remember making some of those points!

Cyllan you have clearly missed many of my posts if you think I am blindly following the herd on any feature I may disagree with

My objection is that I don't feel your suggested change adds anything interesting to the game.

If something is to be changed there needs to be a reason for the change that outweighs the time and effort involved in the change.

I feel that with balancing the shotgun will already perform its role really well without your different ammo types.

Would I use the shotgun as much if its efficacy was dependent on reloading it for different enemy types and having the right ammunition in my pack?

Probably not, your opinion may differ but that is how I feel about it.

Please try to see that we are all just as dedicated to our own ideas as you are to yours.

Convincing people to come over to your opinion is easier when giving examples of a situation (preferably a common one) and how it can be made more fun/ better by making the change.

Telling people that you think they are idiots because they have a different opinion to yours never works.

Telling people something is obvious just because you believe it to be so never works.

Telling people it has to be done because you want it never works.

Telling people "it's cool" never works (we all have different opinions on cool).