Ground Combat Balance Discussion V20 Stable Candidate 1

[jeon]

I looked at the weapons_gc.xml and it looks like someone accidentally set the C4 at 20 damage instead of the 200 it has been.

As for explosive weapons still of the incendiary type (rocket launcher and plasma cannon and the plasma charges), they all feel pretty overpowered to me because of the 4x incendiary multiplier found in config.xml. This means the basic rocket does 80x4 = 320 damage which makes a direct hit instant kill even the toughest aliens with the lowest tech. I haven't been playing this game very long so I'm not aware of how the balance has progressed through the development, so I am unfamiliar with why there is a 4x incendiary multiplier (I'm guessing it has to do with environmental fire damage?). Personally, I change incendiary weapons to kinetic/energy damage as appropriate in my game and that makes things seem more balanced.

[Ol' Stinky]

I looked at the weapons_gc.xml and it looks like someone accidentally set the C4 at 20 damage instead of the 200 it has been.

As for explosive weapons still of the incendiary type (rocket launcher and plasma cannon and the plasma charges), they all feel pretty overpowered to me because of the 4x incendiary multiplier found in config.xml. This means the basic rocket does 80x4 = 320 damage which makes a direct hit instant kill even the toughest aliens with the lowest tech. I haven't been playing this game very long so I'm not aware of how the balance has progressed through the development, so I am unfamiliar with why there is a 4x incendiary multiplier (I'm guessing it has to do with environmental fire damage?). Personally, I change incendiary weapons to kinetic/energy damage as appropriate in my game and that makes things seem more balanced.

It's only meant to be a multiplier against cover etc. - so a frag rocket should do 80 damage to an unarmoured alien on a direct hit, but it would do 320 if it hit the boulder in front of him. If that's not the case and the alien's taking 320 damage (I don't use rockets, really), then it's a bug.

[jeon]

It's only meant to be a multiplier against cover etc. - so a frag rocket should do 80 damage to an unarmoured alien on a direct hit' date=' but it would do 320 if it hit the boulder in front of him. If that's not the case and the alien's taking 320 damage (I don't use rockets, really), then it's a bug.[/quote']

I had changed the multiplier to 2 during 20v7 and it halved the damage alien grenades, rocket launchers, and the plasma cannon did to both Xenonauts and Aliens.

[StellarRat]

I don't have a problem with a direct rocket hit doing massive damage (after all, man portable rockets can knockout tanks), but I have a problem with the surrounding tiles getting hammered so badly. From a physics perspective, when the range from a blast goes up x2 the energy drops by 4x, the inverse square law applies to all energy waves. So, the surrounding tiles should only take 1/4 the damage of the target tile.

Edited December 15, 2013 by StellarRat

[StellarRat]

OK, I'm in January and now higher level Caesans have begun appearing in terror and recovery (cruiser) missions. The AI for them is working just fine, aggressive, but smart. This might be a racial setting gone wrong.

[Max_Caine]

And now for something completely different.

The current crop of alien base maps feel and play out like a modern military shooter - a linear corridor of set pieces broken up by short intervals/cutscenes. This is jarringly, and to me, unpleasantly different to how the rest of ground combat and I strongly believe this design detracts from the rest of the game for the following two reasons.

1) Tactical poses and problems are reduced to a specific checklist.

I draw the courts' attention to exhibit A, Surrealistik's EZ step-by-step method for clearing any room an alien base with no casualties. Having used this method myself, I can say it works.

Why does it work so well? One might first point to doors being the problem. There has been considerable debate on this point, but I say that doors are a symptom of a deeper underlying cause. That cause being there is no room to maneoeuvre. With a linear corridor, you can go forwards, backwards or stay still. Aliens and squaddies alike don't have any opportunities to flank a room - as you can in base missions. It's either bum rush the door into hardened opposition, or find a way to exploit the mechanics of the game so your guys don't get hurt.

2) The AI doesn't play to its stengths in a linear corridor.

The AI, which GJ has poured heart and soul into is a dynamic and (when set correctly) quite aggressive system. When one alien sees a squaddie, he calls his buddies and they come over. A shootout becomes a firefight, which becomes a larger engagement. In contrast, a linear corridor requires the aliens to sit passively in each room and only come awake when the door to the room is breached.

I call exhibit B, complaints about passive AI. Players don't like passive AI. I can bring up a number of other examples should the court desire it, including the period when all aliens did was retreat and set reaction fire. There is little means for the AI to act in an active and dynamic manner in a linear corridor. If the AI rushes forward to reinforce its buddies then the rest of the map becomes a boring and yawnsome affair as the rest of the rooms are cleared out. Earlier iterations of alien base maps were more dynamic affairs, when there were actual crossroads and branching paths.

[Aaron]

Thanks for the feedback guys - we have a fix for the autosave which I will push as a hotfix later today along with fixing the C4.

Alien bases are due for an overhaul when I add more maps: the small bases right now are very linear and that is somewhat intentional as it is the players introduction to them, but the later bases have multiple paths through them - some only accessible by blowing locked doors or using vents. I am also pretty convinced I am going to have multiple paths into the Command Room to reduce grenade spam horror.

[ventuswings]

I think it would be nice if aliens had bunch of flanking opportunities too, not just Xenonauts. I still remember the horror of old XCOM bases (which is similar to base design of Xenonauts except doors) where alien could pop up from anywhere instead of being localized and immobile

[Belmakor]

Thanks for the feedback guys - we have a fix for the autosave which I will push as a hotfix later today along with fixing the C4.

Alien bases are due for an overhaul when I add more maps: the small bases right now are very linear and that is somewhat intentional as it is the players introduction to them, but the later bases have multiple paths through them - some only accessible by blowing locked doors or using vents. I am also pretty convinced I am going to have multiple paths into the Command Room to reduce grenade spam horror.

Aaron. I've only played V20E8 once but I really liked the alien tele-porter inside the base which allowed them to move alien units quickly around.

I have a suggestion/request.

Would it be possible to place these in more locations throughout even the small bases. That way Aliens could get behind you if they so choose?

Hilarious and Terrifying Optional Mechanic

When a Xenonaut uses a tele-porter, they get transported to a random tele-porter elsewhere in the base. If you put two guys through one, chances are they won't be in the same room. Use at your peril!

Why is this also a good game mechanic?

1. Only the Aliens can truly use the tele-porter to their immediate advantage. Avoids the need for multiple corridors in every map to avoid repetition as the Alien has a mechanic it can use to spice things up without cheating.

2. Use a tele-porter as a Xenonaut carries a high risk reward. Yes you might get to bypass a horrible chokepoint filled with Aliens, but just as likely you will end up with someone completely separated from his squad in a room full of enemies. This can only lead to fantastic showdowns.

[Solver]

I am also pretty convinced I am going to have multiple paths into the Command Room to reduce grenade spam horror.

This honestly sounds great. I think alien bases as a whole are a bit too heavy on explosive use (entrenched aliens behind cover are far easier to beat with explosives than without), but command rooms suck. They are pretty dangerous to assault, which is as it should be, but also boring. I end up using smoke to conceal myself and then basically throw all remaining grenades before storming in. It's not optimal gameplay.

[StellarRat]

I'm not sure I want a bunch of alien teleporters allowing aliens to pop in behind me without warning. A few teleporters would be OK, lots not so much. They already have troops that can teleport themselves! In the OG you could set proxmity grenades to cover the flanks and rear of your troops. We don't have those here, so every extra approach to our troops is dangerous. We also don't have large squad that can easily afford to relegate troops to flank security.

Yes, there should be another way to take the command center in alien bases, but it shouldn't be too easy.

Edited December 16, 2013 by StellarRat

[Aaron]

The teleporters unfortunately only work within one submap, so we cannot arbitrarily connect parts of the base together, however that does give me an idea for a new base room type.

[Belmakor]

The teleporters unfortunately only work within one submap, so we cannot arbitrarily connect parts of the base together, however that does give me an idea for a new base room type.

Let me guess? A hidden side room full of reapers that you accidentally tele-port into?

[Solver]

I'm currently finding that the 1.5X damage multiplier which appeared recently is a bit too much. My troops become excellent sharpshooters by the time they reach Lt rank, accuracy is near-perfect in close quarters. Feels to me like 1.25X there might be the sweet spot.

[StellarRat]

I'm currently finding that the 1.5X damage multiplier which appeared recently is a bit too much. My troops become excellent sharpshooters by the time they reach Lt rank, accuracy is near-perfect in close quarters. Feels to me like 1.25X there might be the sweet spot.

Probably realistic, but not good for game play.

[Solver]

Yeah, realistic accuracy would be simply unplayable. Realistic accuracy would be even higher than it is now in game. Elite soldier vs. a larger-than-human alien at 20m distance? Not going to miss. So since realism has to be somewhat overlooked anyway, accuracy feels like it needs to be toned down a bit.

[StellarRat]

Yeah, realistic accuracy would be simply unplayable. Realistic accuracy would be even higher than it is now in game. Elite soldier vs. a larger-than-human alien at 20m distance? Not going to miss. So since realism has to be somewhat overlooked anyway, accuracy feels like it needs to be toned down a bit.

Yeah, there needs to be room for a true firefight if your more than 2 or 3 tiles from the target. 1 tile should still be an execution though. Edited December 17, 2013 by StellarRat

[squigoth]

Just a thought but why can't we have proximity grenades as a researched item from alien technology?

In the OG we've all thrown them, forgot where they were and stepped on them with our own troops... LOL

[Ol' Stinky]

I can get behind lowering the accuracy a little more. Right now, the only time a sniper uses the 60 TU aimed shot is on the move, and while sitting still a 40 TU snap shot can do the job. That seems odd. I'd like it if the short range bonus went up a little at the same time, though. It's 15%/tile at the moment, so maybe bump that up to 20%/tile?

I'm up to landing ships and alien AI seems to be working again. I don't know whether it was one of the updates that fixed this but I'm not complaining.

[Solver]

I'm also a bit further into the game, and more convinced that accuracy needs to be toned down a bit. My shield soldier with a pistol has amazing accuracy. My riflemen do not need the 40 TU aimed shots because they reach amazing accuracy with 30 TU shots. Even my heavy weapons guys are hitting quite a lot. 1.25X should feel better.

[legit1337]

C4 still doesn't work properly even after the hotpatch... Cannot blow open light scout doors. Posting it in the bug forums too.

[Mooton]

I like the current amount of accuracy, I think there's a better solution than nerfing it a bit more.

Increase the maximum of every shot that can be made to 95%. Since the accuracy multiplier is lower on crouching and behind cover enemies you'd find that you need more accuracy to get the same chances. Of course you might want to lower alien accuracy values a little bit so they don't just have 95% against crouching behind cover xenonauts from the start of the game. As it is their accuracy is already high enough that non-combatants should be getting 95% shots on snap and auto fires on people standing in the open.

[StellarRat]

Seems mostly ok to me too.

[Aaron]

New stable candidate build is up, but no real ground combat changes so I'll just update the title of this thread and we can carry on.

[XenoLA]

I'm finding that the aliens don't really put up much of a fight. The only times aliens shoot at me are (1) reaction fire and (2) if my guy is only a few tiles away, such as if we're both inside a scout. Other than that, the aliens will not shoot at me. This is most obvious when I have a shield advance, he takes reaction fire from an alien, and then the shield guy just sits still turn after turn while my snipers blast the alien from a distance. While the alien can clearly see my shield and will shoot if RF is triggered, on the alien turn the alien will simply sit there.

Instead of shooting, the other thing aliens will do on their turn is run back and forth between two cover points. This does nothing but trigger reaction fire from my men, allowing me to win simply through the passage of time.

I also don't think aliens are targeting civilians the same way anymore. I've done two terror missions and had 1 or no civilian casualties. I've also come across situations where I explore the map and find an alien and civilian right next to each other. Then on the alien turn the alien will blast and kill the civilian, but clearly up until this point he had ignored the guy.