Okim Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Currently precision rifle is useful when your other soldiers spot a target for your snipers. It would be nice to have a watch 'fire mode' for the precision rifle that increases view range for a soldier using it (by +25-50%) while consuming some of the APs. First frames of PR firing animation could be more than enough for making an animation of readying the rifle. Subsequent firing from this rifle should not break the previous watch order. And firing from the precision rifle should automatically issue a watch order after the shot is made. Another related suggestion would be to introduce a small penalty for firing at unseen targets. For example your scout has run into an enemy and you want your sniper to take that enemy down. Sniper is far far away and does not see the target - he should get some penalty for trying to hit it. Also the game really needs some king of howering indicator for your soldiers. I had some battles where i really missed some of my soldiers who ended their turn hiding behind a wall inside of a building. A simple arrow-like cursor or agent number would be enough. (IIRC this one was suggested, but i`m not sure). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 But isnt real world snipers working in pairs with spotters? The lone sniper is either a myth or early untrained prototypes in guerilla wars?Personally I like the current setup where you use another soldier to spot the alien and then snipe him. (and i prefere the current situation from a game mechanic view as well) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okim Posted January 16, 2012 Author Share Posted January 16, 2012 (edited) You are talking about military sniper team who`s role is to eliminate targets at long distances. Spotters in those teams indeed carry advanced optics and ballistic computing devices to provide all the necessary info for a sniper. Btw the spotter is also a sniper and usually carries a sniper rifle on his own, but less powerful). IIRC those weren`t present in armies of 1970th century, instead platoons usually included a designated marksman who was using a special rifle (usually called Designated Marksmanship Rifle) like M14, g3sg1 (which sprite is used in game) or SVD. Here in xenonauts we have a special task force more like swat/specnaz, who usually deploy in urban area where there is no need for sniper teams (great spotting distance) and utilise lighter sniper rifles like svu/psg/scout tactical etc. On the battlefield, snipers are very useful – able to pick off distant enemies without exposing themselves to return fire. The precision rifle is an excellent tool for open battlefields, allowing Xenonaut strike teams to neutralise aliens without having to stray into range of their superior weaponry. Taken from here: http://www.xenonauts.com/category/equipment/ I was rejoiced when i read this as there never were any sniper rifles in X-COM. But i was rather disappointed to see no increase in sight range when using precision rifle. I can imagine soldiers using M14s or special modification of M16 for better accuracy, but that G3 sniper gun with a scope of no less than 8x magnification just makes me crazy! Edited January 16, 2012 by Okim Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I agree it could be an interesting mechanic to implement. Might need a bit of balancing options though. Disagree with the whole 'penalty for shooting outside your sight range' though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okim Posted January 17, 2012 Author Share Posted January 17, 2012 Well. Penalty could be a specific feature of Veteran/Insane difficulty or an option in gameplay section of options. BTW, it would be nice to see a customizable difficulty options (hp/accuracy/TUs of you and enemy, agressiveness level of the enemy/number of their missions/crew numbers etc.). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Fox Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I have to say that the real issue with snipers in Xenonauts isn't the weapons, but the base sight range of soldiers. The sight range is in the ranges of 8-10 meters (if you make a comparison to human length) which is of course hilarous on its own, but even for a turn based tactics game it's incredibly short. To me it feels like X-Com had way longer detection ranges that this, but maybe I'm sugarcoating ot due to nostalgia. Either way, I can't escape the feeling that I'm absolutely blind while playing Xenonauts. I also have a feeling that this is going to be a compound problem when the game goes further. Imagine you have to scout the map. You can't send a soldier straight out into the black, because you do not know where the cover is. He can usually walk further than he can see, forcing you to "leap frog" forward in order to be able to take cover behind some "hopefully to be discovered cover" further ahead. I can't really see an issue with upping sight distance a bit. Can you? If you do, please share your opinion on it. I don't mind heavily armored "tank"-type assault troopers having a narrow and even short FOV, but scouts and snipers in light scouting gear should be allowed to see much further than they do. Edited January 17, 2012 by Moonshine Fox Added some thoughts about basic sight distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think a little bit of sight extension would be nice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 (edited) I think a little bit of sight extension would be nice Might make sense logically but what will it do for game play? Will you need to balance it so that your scouts at the front aren't using snipers just to see further and then switch to plasma rifles for damage?Will some aliens also be able to have "scoped weapons" and have even longer range that they spot your chars at? or will every alien have longer range? I have to say that the real issue with snipers in Xenonauts isn't the weapons, but the base sight range of soldiers. The sight range is in the ranges of 8-10 meters (if you make a comparison to human length) which is of course hilarous on its own, but even for a turn based tactics game it's incredibly short. To me it feels like X-Com had way longer detection ranges that this, but maybe I'm sugarcoating ot due to nostalgia. Either way, I can't escape the feeling that I'm absolutely blind while playing Xenonauts.I also have a feeling that this is going to be a compound problem when the game goes further. Imagine you have to scout the map. You can't send a soldier straight out into the black, because you do not know where the cover is. He can usually walk further than he can see, forcing you to "leap frog" forward in order to be able to take cover behind some "hopefully to be discovered cover" further ahead. I can't really see an issue with upping sight distance a bit. Can you? If you do, please share your opinion on it. I don't mind heavily armored "tank"-type assault troopers having a narrow and even short FOV, but scouts and snipers in light scouting gear should be allowed to see much further than they do. So far the maps feels smaller then in UFO:EU, that might be a reason you dont see as far? smaller maps make it less of a hassle to comb them for the last enemy =). And tbh i dont see a problem with being able to move further then you can see. do you feel that you need to hide behind every cover because you dont know if there will be any up ahead or can you move forward and move to cover after you decide you dont have enough TU to press forward? Edited January 17, 2012 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 Might make sense logically but what will it do for game play? Will you need to balance it so that your scouts at the front aren't using snipers just to see further and then switch to plasma rifles for damage?Will some aliens also be able to have "scoped weapons" and have even longer range that they spot your chars at? or will every alien have longer range? An easy way to do it is that the extra sight is calculated at the 'end' of the turn, or rather the 'beginning' of the next. That way your sniper moves to his new position, and the next turn he is in position and using his scope (and lets say any rotation without moving also has this enhanced zoom). Then when you move him, it goes back to normal zoom levels. This means you can't exploit it as you say above. Also might need to include some form of option to do it manually though, but that would cost AP Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 Sounds complicated to code. And it also means you have to leave your snipers out in the open, or at least line of fire to have effect. ( should you really encourage putting your snipers at risk like that?) Even if you simplify it by haveing the option to scope be a manual decision, that eats all your remaining TU, you can technically abuse it by haveing one person use it before you've done anything on the other chars. that way you still have the scoperange and can shoot with other chars from behind the sniper without putting anyone in danger. (you'd need to leapfrog 2 snipers to really abuse it but its possible) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 you could leave your snipers in cover couldn't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 what kind of cover are we talking about? semi cover that allows lineofsight through it or corner of a building cover? if they are standing behind a corner i dont really see how you are supposed to utilize "start of round increased vision untill they move" bonus... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 18, 2012 Share Posted January 18, 2012 I agree, that's why I thought it would be obvious I meant semi-high walls etc. The cover that you can actually use as cover, as opposed to a wall, which just blocks line of sight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Fox Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 I don't think a soldier should have longer sight simply because he's using a sniper rifle. That would potentially be exploitable. I'm talking about upping BASE sight range and then modifying it based on armor worn. Heavy thugs would basically be like now while lighter armors would have longer than current sight range. But of course it would have to be balanced. I'm just saying that even though I had a short sight range in XCom, I never felt blind. In Xeno I do feel blind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted January 20, 2012 Share Posted January 20, 2012 Heavy armour WILL have less LOS, that's already planned. I still think having a big scope on your gun is a good reason for having more sight rage. Kinda goes hand in hand really =p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobfury Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Sorry to resurrect an old thread but after playing the game for about a week now I really feel that sight ranges across the board could do with increasing. At the moment, every firefight is happening within spitting distance. For example, you advance forward and you get reaction fire from 5 squares ahead of you, as the alien has only just spotted your troops. This more often than not this results in the alien being taken down instantly, by any troops you had supporting the point man. I know that's the point of having somebody move ahead of the group, but it always seems to play out the same way because of the tiny ranges involved. In UFO EU you'd receive incoming fire from much further away, which really added to the tension as you dived for cover and then slowly worked your way forward, in the direction of the unseen shot. It also allowed for much better covering fire on your own squad's part too. You could set a rifelman up with a good line of sight down a street, knowing that he'd spot an alien who moved out into the open a good distance away and hopefully take a shot. I don't know if Chris has a reason for the extremely short sight ranges that make sense in the grand design of the finished game, but it just feels as if these artificial limits on what we would realistically expect from both our troops and the aliens are pretty over the top. LoS due to obstructions and cover would be more than enough to encourage the tactical play style of UFO EU, and the current sight ranges are, at present my only gripe regarding the entire game. I wonder, at the very least, is there a way to mod these values? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 probably. But realistically your soldiers should be able to see over the entire length of one battlefield, and shoot just as far too. But then that would remove a lot of the tension and difficulty as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Just want to point out that the gameplay you're experienceing jimbobfury is likely to change when the proper AI is implemented. I believe it has more to do with the AI then the sight range. one question. Isn't the maps in Xenonauts slightly smaller then in UFO:EU? Could that be a reason for the smaller sight range? Or am I just fooling myself thinking that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeV37 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Isn't the map we get in the alpha supposed to be on the small side? With other maps much bigger? I don't know if the maps are smaller, but the sight range is really horrible. I think the reason for it is so we feel more tension from not seeing the enemy, in more of a horror game style than tactical, but it suspends my disbelief that all the soldiers can only see 10 meters in front of themselves. Do they teach you to only look at the ground in boot camp? As for seeing the entire map, you really wouldn't because of the forest effect. Something will eventually get in your way and block LOS. And a boost wouldn't even get to the "realistic" value anyway. Shooting down the entire map is already possible, as long as another soldier sees the alien. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Isn't the map we get in the alpha supposed to be on the small side? With other maps much bigger?I don't know if the maps are smaller, but the sight range is really horrible. I think the reason for it is so we feel more tension from not seeing the enemy, in more of a horror game style than tactical, but it suspends my disbelief that all the soldiers can only see 10 meters in front of themselves. Do they teach you to only look at the ground in boot camp? As for seeing the entire map, you really wouldn't because of the forest effect. Something will eventually get in your way and block LOS. And a boost wouldn't even get to the "realistic" value anyway. Shooting down the entire map is already possible, as long as another soldier sees the alien. Probably to make sure you dont miss the facehuggers. Sneaky little bastards dont just take one of your soldiers out they spawn an even deadlier alien once your soldier is dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anotherdevil Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Shooting down the entire map is already possible, as long as another soldier sees the alien. Yeah but not accurately... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Have you tried adjusting the sight ranges in armours_gc? There is also a default LOD range in config.xml. I don't know if that would affect the aliens as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobfury Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 (edited) Gauddlike, I just found the default LOD settings in the config file about half an hour ago and have been playing around with that. I set it from 10 to 25 and straight away I got the experience I was after as shots rained in on my guys as they disembarked. The aliens seem a lot more capable, and gunfights are happening at much greater range, which in turn is giving me more options, rather than "crap, there's a alien 5 paces away! <autofire>" The only thing is that the game has crashed a couple of times since tweaking the value. I'll keep checking. Just to clarify, this does affect the aliens' sight range too, which is exactly what I wanted. I wasn't after greater sight for my troops to make the game easier, just the opposite in fact, I want more dangerous gun battles spanning greater lengths on the maps. I'll keep tinkering and post what I find. Update: Okay, so it turns out the default sight range setting only applied to the aliens, which was a step in the right direction at least. As you pointed out though, tweaking the sight values of each set of armour in the armours_gc file had an effect on my own troops. Still not quite sure if it's working fully though, as I set the sight range to 20 and the range in game actually only seems to be 13 spaces. It's also stopped crashing, which is good. So, my troops have slightly improved sight range now but better still, the aliens are now taking pot shots at my troops from much further away, adding danger to my advances which is mainly what i was after. I'd recommend giving it a try as the combat feels much more open now, and as both sides have extended sight it's not causing me any balance issues, if anything, it's making the missions more dangerous. Edited February 5, 2012 by jimbobfury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulwrist Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The best weapon is the LMG it has more range than the Sniper and deals way more damage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
void Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I also would like to sight range to be increased several times. If a map isn't flat and barren that wouldn't be much of problem. Currently any shooting outside a building is within 1-turn running distance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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