Should Rotating Soldiers Be Free?

[Goroth Obarskyr]

Now, I understand that this is the way it's always been done since the original X-com, but is having it cost 1TU to rotate a Soldier 1 tile really worth having in the game?

You might say that it's unrealistic to have free rotation, but to that I say that the current system doesn't allow for all kinds of things, like facing sideways while running a different direction, walking backwards, etc... In some ways free rotation would be more realistic because it could be an umbrella functionality that could account for any number of ways soldiers would walk around in combat other than marching straight forward.

So if not for the purpose of "realism" why is this part of the game? Does it add any gameplay function? It's just another idiosyncrasy leftover from X-com. I remember my first time playing X-com and carefully calculating in my head how many TU's I needed to arm and throw a grenade, only to fail to take into account the cost for rotating, leaving my poor rookie standing there with a live grenade. New players are unlikely to grasp how rotation works right away, I think. I know I didn't. It's not like soldiers wouldn't still have cones of vision, giving the AI opportunities to blindside the player and good stuff like that. I think it would be interesting to at least give it a go just to see how it feels gameplay-wise without it.

TL;DR: TU cost for rotating adds nothing to the game except x-com nostalgia flavor and it should be removed.

[kabill]

I disagree - it does have a function, which is to limit visibility. If you remove it, during your turn all your soldiers functionally have 360 degree vision, making facing only relevant for reaction fire. As such, opportunities for the aliens to ambush you are diminished considerably. Moreover, while actually it's quite a small things, having choosing whether or not to spend a few TUs each turn to make sure you're not walking into a trap for me I think it quite important for how I experience the game. While I really enjoyed XCOM 2012 (and understand why 360 degree vision was necessary) it did diminish for me some of the tension involved in exploration and movement.

This said, TUs for movement actions like turning can be easily modded, so if you wanted to play the same without the turning TU cost you could do. Settings are in the 'config.xml' file in the 'assets' folder.

[Gazz]

The first rotation by up to 90°... after every move... should be free.

After that, rotation costs normally so you can't do 360° sweeps for free.

[Goroth Obarskyr]

Along the same logic troops currently have effective 360º vision but at the cost of a few TU's. Sure, you could stop after every tile and do a 360º sweep if it didn't cost anything, but any cautious player right now is going to stop and spend the TU's to look both ways when they pass obstacles that may be hiding aliens. Aliens will still have the opportunity to shoot you from beyond your vision range or of course shoot you in the back if you forget to stop and check while moving a large distance. I think the only thing that would change is that combat would be more streamlined and you would get 1 or 2 extra tiles of movement out of it. While soldiers would be able to check all around themselves, they can't be looking everywhere at once like in the Firaxis XCOM. Once the turn is the aliens' you still have to hope you're looking the right way.

I'll definitely try editing my config.xml and testing this though, thanks for letting me know about that!

[kabill]

I'd argue that combat would become *less* streamlined rather than more, since it becomes optimal to move soldiers square by square, doing a full pivot after each step. Moreover, I'd argue that the few TUs that costs to turn are not at all insignificant (indeed, in your initial post you imply that they're not, since it can lead to situations like not being possible to throw a grenade or whatever like you suggested). And, reducing facing to being relevant only for reaction fire would be a shame (for me) because I don't often, if ever, see any use from reaction fire (which, in turn, would make facing for me irrelevant).

Still, I'd be interested to hear about how you get on if you do try it out.

[radister]

I don't this idea will evolve well.

For example, so we can turn for free. then for user friednly ness, turns should be done automaticly, after all it be anoying if it costs none time units so each steap you move you can turn to get full vision. it just time consuming so we best cut that out. so now our guys always have 360 vision all the time. sounds good, but what about the aliens? come on this is a game where we can't have a massive advantage over the AI. so they should be able to see 360 too.

And then eveyone can see really far at once, you need few people to cover areas. however worse of all auto fire. your never be able to sneak up on an alien. some of you might remeber the old alien 360 vision and how it made the game hell.

Carried though free turning won't work.

Besides its costs 8 units to turn around, thats enough to make sure you can't keep looking around but not cost you too much for loooking. i say the current system is perfect.

[StellarRat]

Free turning is not a good idea in my opinion. First of all it's not realistic from a physics standpoint and second if you are proceeding with abundant caution (turning around to check the flanks, etc...) obviously it ought to slow you down just like it would in real life. It also makes sneaking up on someone impossible at least as far the AI is concerned. Since there is no time limit on ground combat I don't see any reason to allow the soldiers to move faster by removing one of the constraints.

[Solarius Scorch]

Another two arguments against this idea would be:

1. It'd greatly simplify combat tactics, and we don't want that.
   
2. It'd take away much of the suspense, since you'd never be sneak upon. No more nasty surprises.
   

[erutan]

Sometimes you don't know exactly which way a unit will need to toss a grenade, and being 1AP short is annoying. I like Gazz's suggestion as a middle ground.

[GizmoGomez]

Sometimes you don't know exactly which way a unit will need to toss a grenade, and being 1AP short is annoying. I like Gazz's suggestion as a middle ground.

Isn't not being able to do everything part of the difficulty? It's your fault for not planning ahead, I'd say.

I'd rather the game not give me free stuff to help me out of sticky situations; if I got there, I can get myself out. If I can't, then I don't deserve to survive. In this case, I don't deserve to throw that grenade.

[Commissar Pancakes]

Going to have to have to agree with Gizmo.

Xcom was always about those "oh shit" moments that you got yourself (such as a standoff with three Sectoids armed with blaster bombs in the command center willing to blow the crap out of anything that entered the first floor) into as well as figuring a way to get back out (causing a solder to kamikaze into said Sectoid trio with an HE pack, throwing it, and watching open eyed as everything around him blew to little chunks while leaving himself unscathed).

[Mytheos]

I could be wrong but as it is in game now...

If you have 34 TUs, and need 34 TUs to throw a grenade, and are facing the opposite direction needed to throw a grenade...

If you just select the grenade and toss it, the TU costs includes any turning that might be done, so you have no issues tossing the grenade.

However if you turn first before throwing the grenade, you wont be able to toss the grenade as turning costs TUs.

So its a little weird

[Commissar Pancakes]

I could be wrong but as it is in game now...

If you have 34 TUs, and need 34 TUs to throw a grenade, and are facing the opposite direction needed to throw a grenade...

If you just select the grenade and toss it, the TU costs includes any turning that might be done, so you have no issues tossing the grenade.

However if you turn first before throwing the grenade, you wont be able to toss the grenade as turning costs TUs.

So its a little weird

That's probably a bug or as-of-yet unidentified exploit. Probably best to notify the dev team.

[thothkins]

Going to have to have to agree with Gizmo.

Xcom was always about those "oh shit" moments that you got yourself (such as a standoff with three Sectoids armed with blaster bombs in the command center willing to blow the crap out of anything that entered the first floor) into as well as figuring a way to get back out (causing a solder to kamikaze into said Sectoid trio with an HE pack, throwing it, and watching open eyed as everything around him blew to little chunks while leaving himself unscathed).

Have to chime in with my agreement of the Commissar's post.

Bong!

[Goroth Obarskyr]

So I've been playing the game a bit with turning at 0ap. I've been trying to test correctly, which is of course trying to abuse the advantage as much as possible. Really the biggest difference is just in how much a lone soldier can scout at once. That being said, the practice of sending a lone soldier maximum distance into the fog of war and then spinning him/her around is sometimes just a quick way to get them killed. It's still much more beneficial to move up cautiously with the squad members supporting and spotting for each other.

I find that free rotation doesn't change fundamentally how encounters with aliens occur. When entering an undiscovered area my method has always been to enter with enough TU's to look around, and/or shoot, and/or move back to safety if there happens to be an alien present, and having free rotation hasn't really altered this practice at all for me. The fact that squad sight is such an integral part of ground combat means that there isn't much opportunity for the infamous 360º sweeps to come into play.

The real difference in the game with having free rotation is not whether or not you spot an alien or walk into oncoming fire, but in whether or not your soldier gets that snap shot off or has enough TU to run it that last tile into cover.

Obviously I haven't played through the whole game, this is just my opinion after playing the game both ways on fresh saves, on the limited set of official maps. If anyone else tries playing the game like this, I'd be interested in what you think

[RawCode]

nope, everything shoud cost AP (i dont know reason why AP called time units in xenonauts)

[Mytheos]

So I've been playing the game a bit with turning at 0ap. I've been trying to test correctly, which is of course trying to abuse the advantage as much as possible. Really the biggest difference is just in how much a lone soldier can scout at once. That being said, the practice of sending a lone soldier maximum distance into the fog of war and then spinning him/her around is sometimes just a quick way to get them killed. It's still much more beneficial to move up cautiously with the squad members supporting and spotting for each other.

I find that free rotation doesn't change fundamentally how encounters with aliens occur. When entering an undiscovered area my method has always been to enter with enough TU's to look around, and/or shoot, and/or move back to safety if there happens to be an alien present, and having free rotation hasn't really altered this practice at all for me. The fact that squad sight is such an integral part of ground combat means that there isn't much opportunity for the infamous 360º sweeps to come into play.

The real difference in the game with having free rotation is not whether or not you spot an alien or walk into oncoming fire, but in whether or not your soldier gets that snap shot off or has enough TU to run it that last tile into cover.

Obviously I haven't played through the whole game, this is just my opinion after playing the game both ways on fresh saves, on the limited set of official maps. If anyone else tries playing the game like this, I'd be interested in what you think

It isnt something that is going to greatly effect the gameplay, and will generally function as a 10-20% TU bonus.

The way it is, you have to be more careful about how you use your soldiers, and adds a greater gap between Rookies and Veterans.

I dont think turning it off adds anything of value to the gameplay, and just makes the game slightly easier.

Not much different than removing the TUs from sitting or standing, why would you?

It isnt a leftover mechanic, the whole rule of combat is everything you do costs TUs, and using your TUs in the most efficient manner is the idea to strive towards.

Is it realistic? Sure why not? You mention well you could walk forwards and look to your right, but the game doesnt allow that.

You can still replicate the same thing by stopping and turning to your right every few squares, and your point is that costs too many TUs?

I would put forth that if you were walking/running in one direction and looking in another it would slow you down...a great deal...which means that action would take more "Time" Units.

So even if they for some weird and unnecessary reason added the ability to run forward while looking right, it would have to cost more TUs than just running forward anyways, and would probably cost the same amount of TUs as it does now to replicate the same thing.

So in the end it wouldn't matter for anything other than giving your soldiers a TU bonus, which they REALLY dont need, and it would make the game more forgiving, which again it REALLY doesnt need.

Edited July 26, 2013 by Mytheos

[GizmoGomez]

I had an experience a little while ago where I knew there was an enemy in a certain field. So, I ran my guys up to the fence along the field, and since turning wasn't free, I couldn't spin them around in place for free (which if I could do for free then I would do every time; just the way it works). If I had bothered to look behind me, then I'd have seen another enemy behind me (who happened to be a poor shot, so I was still alright).

My point is: Making turning cost 0 TUs would lead to every soldier and AI unit doing little pirouettes all the time simply because there's no reason not to. This would remove the ability to sneak up on things (can we even sneak up on aliens at the moment? I think that'd be awesome).

[StellarRat]

I had an experience a little while ago where I knew there was an enemy in a certain field. So, I ran my guys up to the fence along the field, and since turning wasn't free, I couldn't spin them around in place for free (which if I could do for free then I would do every time; just the way it works). If I had bothered to look behind me, then I'd have seen another enemy behind me (who happened to be a poor shot, so I was still alright).

My point is: Making turning cost 0 TUs would lead to every soldier and AI unit doing little pirouettes all the time simply because there's no reason not to. This would remove the ability to sneak up on things (can we even sneak up on aliens at the moment? I think that'd be awesome).

Remember the spinning alien bug in the AI couple version ago? I can just see this now...all the characters on the battlefield doing pirouettes like we're at Swan Lake or something. Come on! It's just silly and unrealistic.

[GizmoGomez]

Remember the spinning alien bug in the AI couple version ago? I can just see this now...all the characters on the battlefield doing pirouettes like we're at Swan Lake or something. Come on! It's just silly and unrealistic.

Exactly my point.

[StellarRat]

Exactly my point.

Agree 100%

[Goroth Obarskyr]

It isnt something that is going to greatly effect the gameplay, and will generally function as a 10-20% TU bonus.

The way it is, you have to be more careful about how you use your soldiers, and adds a greater gap between Rookies and Veterans.

I dont think turning it off adds anything of value to the gameplay, and just makes the game slightly easier.

Not much different than removing the TUs from sitting or standing, why would you?

It isnt a leftover mechanic, the whole rule of combat is everything you do costs TUs, and using your TUs in the most efficient manner is the idea to strive towards.

Is it realistic? Sure why not? You mention well you could walk forwards and look to your right, but the game doesnt allow that.

You can still replicate the same thing by stopping and turning to your right every few squares, and your point is that costs too many TUs?

I would put forth that if you were walking/running in one direction and looking in another it would slow you down...a great deal...which means that action would take more "Time" Units.

So even if they for some weird and unnecessary reason added the ability to run forward while looking right, it would have to cost more TUs than just running forward anyways, and would probably cost the same amount of TUs as it does now to replicate the same thing.

So in the end it wouldn't matter for anything other than giving your soldiers a TU bonus, which they REALLY dont need, and it would make the game more forgiving, which again it REALLY doesnt need.

1. It definitely does function as a small TU bonus. I'd say the gap between rookie's and veterans is not accentuated by the ability to freely rotate, however.

2. I'm suggesting that TU cost for rotation is an unnecessary gameplay element, so yes, free rotation adds no gameplay whatsoever.

3. One way is not more realistic than the other, just that TU cost or no, one way is no more so than the other.

4. My point is not that stopping and looking around costs too many TU, the reason that I suggested this is that I think it's a factor that isn't relevant to the game often enough to be justified. Think of it like optimizing the experience with a minimum of moving parts.

5. As far as making the game more forgiving, balance is ongoing and any shift this might cause can be ironed out in future versions of the game. If you're worried about the game being too easy, weapons and the flaccid AI performance are the real factors you should be worried about.

I had an experience a little while ago where I knew there was an enemy in a certain field. So, I ran my guys up to the fence along the field, and since turning wasn't free, I couldn't spin them around in place for free (which if I could do for free then I would do every time; just the way it works). If I had bothered to look behind me, then I'd have seen another enemy behind me (who happened to be a poor shot, so I was still alright).

My point is: Making turning cost 0 TUs would lead to every soldier and AI unit doing little pirouettes all the time simply because there's no reason not to. This would remove the ability to sneak up on things (can we even sneak up on aliens at the moment? I think that'd be awesome).

There's not as much reason to do this as you would think, all I can say is to try it out for yourself. Unless you're playing with a squad of 3 soldiers, I think this idea of 360º vision breaking the game is kind of unfounded.

[Queamin]

2. I'm suggesting that TU cost for rotation is an unnecessary gameplay element, so yes, free rotation adds no gameplay whatsoever.

Sorry but that is what you say I would think almost everyone apart from you is fine with it.

[Goroth Obarskyr]

Sorry but that is what you say I would think almost everyone apart from you is fine with it.

That must make everyone right, then?

[thothkins]

Remember the spinning alien bug in the AI couple version ago? I can just see this now...all the characters on the battlefield doing pirouettes like we're at Swan Lake or something. Come on! It's just silly and unrealistic.

Cdr StellarRat: Why's Cpn Mytheos on the ground squealing?

Cdr Gizmo: Nutcracker Suite. The Sebillian took it a little literally. Must have been set to aggressive in this build.

I would have thought that each Xenonaut ahas a cone of sight, beyond which it's only reasonable that it would cost to change. there are some possts in the dusty forum archives somewhere on it.

At a push, something possibly reflecting quick, natural glances as the soldier moves. However, I'm not sure that changing it now adds enough game play advantage compared with the work involved.?