V18.3 Ground Combat Balance Discussion

[Chris]

This is the thread for discussion of and balance suggestions for the ground combat layer for Build V18.3. Please ensure you have Hotfix 1 from this thread before taking part: http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/f...-1-Released%21

Please repost any opinions from the V18 thread here if they are still valid.

[Max_Caine]

I've extracted a number of complaints a forumite on the 2k forums made about Xenonauts. This is the post itself, and it's a "first impressions" kind of thing, so, you know, always good to know. The specific complaints are:

• Long periods of inaction in a map
  
• Combat feels like everyone standing around shooting at each other
  
• Cover system feels unclear
  
• Pathfinding system always puts your soliders in harms way (i.e. in fire/smoke, etc)
  
• Squaddies and aliens get hidden behind objects with no way to click on them.
  
• Something to show the radius of explosives

Please remember this isn't what I say, those are the first impressions from someone who is unlikely to ever come on this board.

[crusherven]

1. I kinda disagree with the first point, but I do think there could be larger numbers of aliens per craft.

2. Second point is just like the OG. I get the impression this guy wants Xenonauts to be more like the new EU?

3. Ehh, I think the cover system is fairly clear. There are a few bugs with hitting your own cover or having accuracy reduced by "long" cover.

4. /shrug. It's pretty obvious where you're gonna walk. I guess it *might* be nice if the pathfinding tried to avoid flames (and I definitely hate the grunt/pause when you enter smoke), but otherwise, meh.

5. True.

6. I agree.

I had to shake my head at the guy's complaint about friendly fire. I mean, really, if you're going to shoot with 25% hit chance and an ally is forward of your position, don't use a rocket launcher. That would have been a dumb shot to take in real life as well.

[Sathra]

I've been musing about the Heavy Plasma Rifle. Should it have burst fire? Last time I tried to use one, burst fire cost 52 TU's. Would make it different from the Plasma Rifle if it only had single shot. Like a long-ranged, powerful shotgun. Would help make the aliens move more too (I think).

[Max_Caine]

Is there any money in the kitty for a smoother animated transition between zombie and reaper? The current process where the current zombie dies and bing! instant reaper (just add victim) is super horrible. I thought I would never, ever say this, but the transition animation in EU1994 is smoother!

EDIT: Now that I've set the tone, (smooth move, Max), I have a couple of things to note about night-time missions.

1) Flares don't last forever. I found this out in the most painful way. If flares are going to be rationed, could they be long lasting, please?

2) On the other hand if flares aren't intended to last forever, could flares be set to unlimited? Given that carrying capacity is going to change, carrying more or less flares is going to be one of those choices that people are going to have to make.

3) The sole difference between night-time and day time combat is that the player can't see what's going on. Both squaddies and aliens have exactly the same fields of vision, exactly the same to-hits and the AI behaves as if it was a clear, sunny day. Could there be changes to how night-time combat affects the things you'd expect it to. For example, if I throw a flare, could that reveal FOW within its light radius? And could fields of vision be cut down for both aliens and squaddies?

EDIT 2:

With a few more terror missions under my belt, I have noticed somethig interesting. I don't think it's a bug, just something that hasn't been implemented. If I run my Hunter through a lamppost, the upper half will stay suspended in the air rather than come crashing down. That was a little "feature" of EU1994, as I remember.

Edited April 27, 2013 by Max_Caine

[erutan]

@sathra isn't that the plasma cannon though?

[Max_Caine]

So, after carpet-bombing a sebillian to try and stun the bastard, can grenades:

1) Either be given a much longer range (say, 16 tiles?) or have all grenade types be disconnected from the damage dropoff. Accuracy dropoff, I don't mind. Its not like any of my troops are baseball stars, but the damage dropoff makes stun grenades pretty damn useless.

2) Could they ignore any non-window prop with a blocking chance of 50% or less? It's really wierd (and annoying) to see them get blocked by a chest-high wall a square away.

And can smoke damage be applied to every square that a unit moves through. When I thought I had trapped the Sebillian in a cloud of stun smoke, he walked through it all like it wasn't there. I mean, the damage animation doesn't need to be played except perhaps once, but it didn't feel like I had accomplished anything.

[StellarRat]

So, after carpet-bombing a sebillian to try and stun the bastard, can grenades:

1) Either be given a much longer range (say, 16 tiles?) or have all grenade types be disconnected from the damage dropoff. Accuracy dropoff, I don't mind. Its not like any of my troops are baseball stars, but the damage dropoff makes stun grenades pretty damn useless.

2) Could they ignore any non-window prop with a blocking chance of 50% or less? It's really wierd (and annoying) to see them get blocked by a chest-high wall a square away.

And can smoke damage be applied to every square that a unit moves through. When I thought I had trapped the Sebillian in a cloud of stun smoke, he walked through it all like it wasn't there. I mean, the damage animation doesn't need to be played except perhaps once, but it didn't feel like I had accomplished anything.

I think I reported #1, #2 as bugs. Perhaps you could re-post. Both are wrong enough that I think they fall into the "bug" category.

[Sathra]

@Erutan: Nah, the Heavy plasma is the big red rifle with no silver parts you see aliens carrying around about Corvette/Landing ship era.

@Max: You could set flares to unlimited yourself to try it out. They appear in the same category as medikits. Never tried equipping them yet though.

[erutan]

I meant in terms of how it functions - the plasma cannon is single shot high damage w/ lowish accuracy. Not sure what to do besides have it be a more powerful rifle or a more accurate but less powerful cannon. Have it be more like a LMG?

[Sathra]

At present the plasma cannon is a high accuracy, long ranged explosive weapon. I'd have the heavy plasma a short-ranged (kinda) high damage weapon with good accuracy. It'd help the player prepare for plasma cannons too.

Although, having it like a LMG would be pretty cool.

[Sathra]

Wow...Stun rockets are really weak. Its more effective to shoot them with frags. Which are far too good at stunning come to think of it.

[crusherven]

And can smoke damage be applied to every square that a unit moves through. When I thought I had trapped the Sebillian in a cloud of stun smoke, he walked through it all like it wasn't there. I mean, the damage animation doesn't need to be played except perhaps once, but it didn't feel like I had accomplished anything.

It does seem ridiculously easy for the aliens to avoid the smoke. Maybe it thins out too quickly.

[StellarRat]

It does seem ridiculously easy for the aliens to avoid the smoke. Maybe it thins out too quickly.

You have to pretty much saturate an area with stun gas to knock out the aliens. I think its OK. If it worked better I doubt anyone would use the other stun weapons.

[Max_Caine]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not compliaing that I have to fill an area with gas, my complaint is the gas isn't working. There's no indication that the gas works even when I've hit a Sebby straight on and filled the tiles around him with gas.

[erutan]

I still say drop stun grenades.

Have people use batons or rely on luck before they get electroshock grenades.

[Sathra]

I meant that the stun rockets are actually less effective than the grenades. I boosted their gas chance so they are a bit better. Still, frags stun so much better.

I have found the gas does work, but you sometimes have to shoot them a little. And throw a bunch of stun grenades to fill the area of gas. Then suppress them so they run through it.

[erutan]

I usually use a combo of flashbangs and stun gas grenades.

[StellarRat]

OK, my average stun grenade attack is no less than four grenades thrown by two assault troops all tossed in one turn. I've used as many as eight in one "barrage". That seems to be pretty darn effective.

IMO, one of the biggest problems right now, is not how effective the grenades are, but the fact that suppression is range dependent even for explosives AND that you can't toss grenades over anything without blowing yourself up half the time. That bug REALLY needs to be fixed. Grenades were meant to thrown over things! If those get fixed you'll able to pin down the alien with flash bangs and hold him there long enough for the gas to work.

Edited April 29, 2013 by StellarRat

[Bansheedragon]

I came across a situation today that really needs fixing.

Not sure what map it was, but I had what looed like a train yard on the "left" side of the map.

What happened was that I had an alien run out of the ufo and then over to a train wagon.

On this train wagon was a container.

Now due to the angle of the map, the alien was completely hidden to me.

There was absolutely no way whatsoever I could target the alien with my weapons.

The result was that the alien could stand there and shoot at my soldiers and I could do almost nothing abut it.

The only thing I could do was throw grenades at the approximate location and just pray that they would actually hit the alien.

Took me 3 turns to get the alien down, and I lost 2 soldiers in the process.

I'll try to remember to get a screenshot next time I'm on the map for clarification

[Chris]

Banshee - hmm. Doesn't the contextual cursor still pop up if you mouseover the alien without a weapon selected?

Everyone else - does setting all the grenades to have 99 range fix the range issues with them? I'm not sure it'll enable the soldiers to actually throw them further but should stop the suppression issues.

[Sathra]

I increased flashbangs to 20, and they work nicely. Only downside is you can throw them really damn far, very accurately (easy hit at rifle range).

The issue with targetting stuff behind props is that the cursor targets the prop since the alien can't actually be seen by the player, just the troopers.

Its not a problem with walls, since it goes transparent and you can target them easier.

Edited April 30, 2013 by Sathra

[Max_Caine]

Putting a max limit on how far grenades can be thrown would be useful. As StellarRat says, squaddies are currently human mortars.

[Sathra]

I like the range how it is. Its much shorter than the OG, where they really were human mortars (to the point some couldn't throw because it would go above the top of the map).

Having it cut off, but making the range really high would be a good fix though. They should still be able to try to throw very far, but miss badly at long range (about the max op range of a rifle).

[StellarRat]

I like the range how it is. Its much shorter than the OG, where they really were human mortars (to the point some couldn't throw because it would go above the top of the map).

Having it cut off, but making the range really high would be a good fix though. They should still be able to try to throw very far, but miss badly at long range (about the max op range of a rifle).

Grenades are supposed to be short range weapons. Currently, they have the range of an assault rifle. It makes absolutely no sense to me. Why bother to equip your troops with anything but grenades if you can toss one nearly across the map? Am I the only one that sees a problem with this? If it were up to me max. grenade range would be about 20 tiles. The whole idea behind having different weapons is that they have different capabilities, strengths and weaknesses to make choosing the correct ones for the situation important. If everything works the same, why not just give EVERYONE blasters and white plastic armor ala Star Wars and call it good? IMO, the correct way to fix the suppression is to fix the game code not extend the range of grenades even further. Edited April 30, 2013 by StellarRat