a_beorning Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) If there are no soldiers at base, it doesn't mean base is absolutely unmanned. There can be engineers and scientists. And there are for sure: - logistics manager - fuel engineer - radar operator - repairman - cook (starring Steven Seagal ) - janitor (Roger Wilco forewer!) and so on. Aliens attacking. Yes, all this personnel are untrained civils. But they really want to live! They get what they can found and try their chances in seems-to-hopeless battle. ---------- Now inside-game point of view. 1) If base is attacked and there are no soldiers, game "hired" several (2-4) "soldiers" with names "Civil worker №" and low characteristics (slightly less then average private). All this "soldiers" have (hidden) template "civil" - no crafted weapon, no armor, only what can be bought (in game terms) "for free and immediately". I think, pistol or shotgun and 1-2 grenades will be ok. 2) Normal battle in "base attacked" style 3) After battle, if base is still here, game automatically "fired" temporary soldiers AFAIR, possibility to arm engineers and scientists in emergency already was in one of XCom games - but not in first two. ---------- Of course, it's for Chris to decide how difficult is such feature to implement. Edited March 21, 2013 by a_beorning Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GizmoGomez Posted March 21, 2013 Share Posted March 21, 2013 I really like that idea, as you'd at least be able to take out some of their troops before they slaughter you. Who knows, perhaps they'd even win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 By the time anyone seriously assaults your base I imagine civilians with low stats and starting gear would stand roughly the same sort of chance of killing the enemies as the defenders of the police station in the first terminator film. That wouldn't be a particularly fun battle to take part in and the novelty would wear off very quickly. It would also leave me questioning why the devs put the feature in if it didn't actually accomplish anything. As soon as the mission launched you have the option of abandoning the mission or spending half an hour of your life running round getting your team shot to bits with the same result. It would also be frustrating if you had a stockpile of tier four weaponry and armour in the stores but had to defend naked using tier one weapons, which would naturally be a little weaker. I think people would question why those limits were in place. Ultimately I feel it detracts a little from your base planning. If you want a garrison in place you should hire one and equip it appropriately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_beorning Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 By the time anyone seriously assaults your base I imagine civilians with low stats and starting gear would stand roughly the same sort of chance of killing the enemies as the defenders of the police station in the first terminator film. Middle of 3rd month in my case. My soldiers just get their first plasma rifle. Chances for civilians are small but still are. I'll say: - The same sort of chances vietnamese peasants (untrained but with AK-47s) have versus US army in 1970s - The same sort of chances afghan talibs (mostly untrained but with M16s) have versus USSR army in 1980s - The same sort of chances any guerilla warrior of any epoch have versus well-armed foreign invader. Chances to survive or at least to make them pay a real price for your life and your land. If they succeed in suppressing a single alien with flashbag and then kill him (3 to 1 is possible even with pistols), they already have a good, brand new, shiny alien gun. And then - let's rock! That wouldn't be a particularly fun battle to take part in and the novelty would wear off very quickly. Simple. Dialog: "Base civilians versus armed to the teeth aliens. Nearly impossible battle. Will try / Surrender base " It would also be frustrating if you had a stockpile of tier four weaponry and armour in the stores but had to defend naked using tier one weapons, which would naturally be a little weaker. (User-side explanation) 'Cause attack catched them naturally with pants down. It's not base storage weapon - it's their personal, under-pillow, "never sleep without" Colts and TTs. (program-side explanation) Classical "XCom"s has a feature "pre-battle equipment screen". "Xenonauts" have no such feature. Ultimately I feel it detracts a little from your base planning. If you want a garrison in place you should hire one and equip it appropriately. It is NOT a garrison. It's an absolutely emergency measure for cases: - garrison is not yet arrived (first weeks of new base) - soldiers are on the mission etc. My idea is to give very realistic feature more-or-less cheap in sence of programming hours. It's up for user to use it or not. I don't like and never use mashineguns - is the labor of its designer in vain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Middle of 3rd month in my case. My soldiers just get their first plasma rifle.Chances for civilians are small but still are. I'll say: - The same sort of chances vietnamese peasants (untrained but with AK-47s) have versus US army in 1970s - The same sort of chances afghan talibs (mostly untrained but with M16s) have versus USSR army in 1980s - The same sort of chances any guerilla warrior of any epoch have versus well-armed foreign invader. Chances to survive or at least to make them pay a real price for your life and your land. And if you were hiding in the hills/forests only striking when the odds were in your favour then that analogy would be sound. However you are penned into a deathtrap being assaulted by superior troops with superior firepower, and (to use your suggested troop numbers) you are also outnumbered. (User-side explanation) 'Cause attack catched them naturally with pants down. It's not base storage weapon - it's their personal, under-pillow, "never sleep without" Colts and TTs. (program-side explanation) Classical "XCom"s has a feature "pre-battle equipment screen". "Xenonauts" have no such feature. As you point out the whole base is there including the commander and the quartermaster. I am pretty sure at least one of those would throw the doors open and hand out some decent weapons. They must be equipping the civilians anyway as I find it unrealistic that they would be allowing their civilian staff to carry personal firearms inside their top secret military facility. It is NOT a garrison. It's an absolutely emergency measure for cases: - garrison is not yet arrived (first weeks of new base) - soldiers are on the mission etc. It is a garrison, you are just choosing to call it something else. It is a body of armed people defending your base for you. The in game reason might be local militia, armed civilians or whatever but the effect is of a free, poorly equipped, garrison. I don't know how you have it planned but it reads that this garrison will be available as soon as you build a base no matter if you hire any personnel to work there which means it is also a completely free garrison. My idea is to give very realistic feature more-or-less cheap in sence of programming hours. It's up for user to use it or not. I don't like and never use mashineguns - is the labor of its designer in vain? I don't see it as a particularly realistic feature as it was suggested. Civilians who carry personal weapons in to military bases to keep under their pillows? Base staff who decide when under attack to break out their least effective weapons while leaving the good stuff in storage? The thing about machine guns is that they are useful and can be used effectively, you just don't like to use them. The thing about the feature under discussion is that (as it has been suggested) it will not be particularly effective. I feel the novelty of the rat trap mission would wear off quickly, especially when under attack by, for example, a force of Androns. You may indeed really enjoy a hopeless battle against overwhelming numbers armed with superior weapons, superior accuracy, tough armour you can barely penetrate and with a set destination that you must sit and defend. I am not convinced it would be fun or an experience I would want to go through more than once though. You could try running a few ground missions where you are only armed with pistols and have reduced their accuracy (to simulate the weaker civilian garrison) and see how much fun they are. I would suggest doing it against a larger craft though, preferably with at least a soldier crew instead of the non-coms to get a better feel for how it would play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crusherven Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Chances for civilians are small but still are. I'll say: - The same sort of chances vietnamese peasants (untrained but with AK-47s) have versus US army in 1970s - The same sort of chances afghan talibs (mostly untrained but with M16s) have versus USSR army in 1980s - The same sort of chances any guerilla warrior of any epoch have versus well-armed foreign invader. Chances to survive or at least to make them pay a real price for your life and your land. In those cases, the untrained fighters lost every stand-up fight. (At least, that's true in Vietnam. I don't know about the USSR in Afghanistan) They were successful precisely because they avoided fights like this and eroded the enemy's will to continue fighting for little gain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_beorning Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 Ok, you nearly perusaded me. I have only two light objections 1) It already was in XCom:Apocalypse and it was really nice. 2) Base civilian have one great advantage over aliens (and partisans over invaders): they know a ground. They know every rock, every bush and (in our case) every corner of base. In game terms, open map and cover bonuses. As you point out the whole base is there including the commander and the quartermaster.I am pretty sure at least one of those would throw the doors open and hand out some decent weapons. If they have time to. In game terms - pre-battle equipping screen. Civilians who carry personal weapons in to military bases to keep under their pillows? I would suggest chef cleaver for cook, wrench or hammer for engineer etc. (base is a beautiful place for close combat!) - but I fear game developers will lynch me In those cases, the untrained fighters lost every stand-up fight. (At least, that's true in Vietnam. I don't know about the USSR in Afghanistan) They lost nearly ever stand-up fight. But somehow make two strongest armies of the world to withdraw because of unbearable losses. Another example - Grenada, 1983. First two days of operation local villagers armed with shotguns and pitchforks succesfully repelled attack of USA SEALs (!), and only arrival of heavy weaponry turned the tide of battle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max_Caine Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 a_beorning, have you actually looked at the Level Design Principles discussion? Here, let me quote you from the base assaults section: Xenonaut Base Defence: Should feel familiar so you want to be careful not to blow things up (it's your base) and also tense about losing the base. Base should look lived in, and objects should look like they've been abandoned in a hurry. Rooms should be small but densely packed with props, so the mission should be a case of sweeping your base to find the wall breaches and then fierce short-range fighting in the rooms around the breaches. Cover should be designed to be easily flanked from adjacent rooms; it should provide protection only to one direction. Aliens should be relatively few in number but aggressive and well equipped, and should stick together (the number of wall breaches will increase as the UFOs get larger). That is diametrically opposed to what you want, which is a game of tag with plasma guns around the base. And aliens won't be in singles, they will be in a cohesive group. How are these civvies going to "rock" with alien guns when they can't get close enough to grab them? What good is knowing the terrain when it's easily flanked? I mean, take a look at Xenonaut base tilesets, especially the finished base design. You can see from the design that it's very easy for either side to flank the other, but zero-level civvies can't capitalise on that like aliens can. And finally, do you know what the win condition for the aliens is in the base assault? It isn't "kill all the defenders". It is "Destroy the command and control center". There's no time to play guerilla warfare - all the aliens have to do is steamroll towards the C&C, blow it up and they win. Exactly how are poorly armed and equipped civvies without any armour going to stop them from doing that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a_beorning Posted March 22, 2013 Author Share Posted March 22, 2013 And finally, do you know what the win condition for the aliens is in the base assault? It isn't "kill all the defenders". It is "Destroy the command and control center" Ok, it was a last straw. I was wrong, and a question is closed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Not necessarily wrong, just not quite on the same thought path as some others Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRiME Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 In a military base such as Xcom ALL staff must undergo basic milita training. Except maybe some exceptions but ultimately it would be expected. Also if anyone can't figure out howto fire a RPG/M16 etc then they probably shouldn't be in that base! I think it be a good idea but make sure the base personal don't have very good stats and can't be trained up. So maybe 40 Action Points etc.. and they can only use what has been made surplus in base and don't start automatically with weapons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Not necessarily wrong, just not quite on the same thought path as some others there goes my plan to use their corpses as additional sand bags outside the command center Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 there goes my plan to use their corpses as additional sand bags outside the command center You can still do that. Pancakes! Front and centre! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRiME Posted March 22, 2013 Share Posted March 22, 2013 Female bodies on top, for functional purposes.. Because you know...they provide more cover Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Pancakes Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 You can still do that.Pancakes! Front and centre! But I've already used them to jam the hanger doors! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gauddlike Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 Then make more commissar, there must be some volunteers around here somewhere eh thotkins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted March 23, 2013 Share Posted March 23, 2013 if there's a chinook, and if there's a hidden spot, there's thothkins! there's thothkins! if the squad is in a bind, then it won't give a jot, it's thothkins! it's thothkins! sorry, you caught me writing my play through theme song. What was the question? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Pancakes Posted March 24, 2013 Share Posted March 24, 2013 Take this stun stick and take down that damned kill-bot!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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