Milestone 4 - Experimental Balance Thread

[Chris]

This is a dedicated thread for discussing the game balance in the experimental versions of Milestone 4. Please let us know what parts of the game feel well-balanced, and which do not, so we can polish up the build before the public stable release of this Milestone.

The full patch notes for Milestone 4 Prototype (4.0.0) can be seen here:  

 

[ADederer]

Early impressions, things are LEATHAL.  Whatever you did to dial back human weapons seems to have done too much (haven't hit with a range 1-3 burst yet).  Meantime, the cleaners are hitting 3 round bursts across half the map, and the Aliens are worse.  Medical center doesn't seem to "Save" very many either. 

My initial squad had assaults with sub-40 accuracy, this seems to break the model, they are literally missing at range 1-2 with all 3.

Air changes look to be good, less to worry about.

Money hasn't been TOO much an issue, will know more once base gets built out.

[Chris]

On 5/25/2024 at 6:36 PM, ADederer said:

Early impressions, things are LEATHAL.  Whatever you did to dial back human weapons seems to have done too much (haven't hit with a range 1-3 burst yet).  Meantime, the cleaners are hitting 3 round bursts across half the map, and the Aliens are worse.  Medical center doesn't seem to "Save" very many either. 

My initial squad had assaults with sub-40 accuracy, this seems to break the model, they are literally missing at range 1-2 with all 3.

Air changes look to be good, less to worry about.

Money hasn't been TOO much an issue, will know more once base gets built out.

Thanks. What range are you generally attacking from? Shotguns (and burst fire) is strong at really close range, something like 5 tiles or less. Beyond that burst fire is less damage efficient than normal shots, although more effective for suppression.

Shotguns should still be fairly effective at short range even with sub 40 accuracy, as they don’t rely on accuracy that much compared to other weapons. What sort of hit chances were you seeing? You can always add the targeting module to get another +5 acc too if you think you need it.

EDIT - I've tested the numbers and a soldier with 36 Accuracy has 75%x3 hit chance in an adjacent tile even with the cheapest shotgun fire mode, and 87% hit chance on the more expensive fire mode. If you've missed all three shots at that hit chance then you're very unlucky! However, the hit chance drops by 7% for each extra tile of range, so you have to make sure you get really close.

[Rakiii]

First of all ty for update.

Early impressions (first two months, Commander difficulty):

I haven´t noticed any crashes or instability so far.

I have also noticed enemies hit harder and my MARS unit being wrecked like having no armor but I haven´t seen it in the patchnotes (is it intended?)

It seems they are also more accurate (maybe just my feelings but they hit "everything" even through cover )

Stunning enemies with baton is much harder now (you can miss some shots here and there). I am ok with this change (hit chance being based on reflexes) but I would reduce TU spent for melee actions (for both knife and baton from 25% > 20% TU)

I am not sure about changes to funding system (need more time for testing) but I have noticed that base structures cost a lot more money than before but you haven´t mentioned it in the patch notes (just aircraft changes)?

 

• The invasion has been tweaked so that the player needs to run fewer missions in the first couple of months of the campaign. The appearance of Scout UFOs and Destroyer UFOs has been moved forward slightly, and the Cleaner storyline now takes a bit longer to resolve (over the same number of missions). This means the time spent using each equipment tech tier is more even, rather than having lots of missions fighting with the Warden and Accelerated weapons and then being rushed through the later equipment tiers.

I am not fun of this change. There are weeks without any activity now. I had just one crash site with Scout UFO (btw full of Servitors) before medium UFO (destroyer) shown.

Give us more time/missions with basic UFO and cleaners pls. Maybe add some "Scout" UFO variety (light scout, medium scout with different UFO weapons, crew etc ,,,,... )

I have no problem figting with basic gear or magnetic weapons. Maybe add some possibility to get more advanced versions of them (if you capture specific alien or smth).

We should have enough time to enjoy our new toys in every phase.

Good amount of different missions is the way to go:)

Edited May 27 by Rakiii

[Chris]

On 5/27/2024 at 12:05 AM, Rakiii said:

First of all ty for update.

Early impressions (first two months, Commander difficulty):

I haven´t noticed any crashes or instability so far.

I have also noticed enemies hit harder and my MARS unit being wrecked like having no armor but I haven´t seen it in the patchnotes (is it intended?)

It seems they are also more accurate (maybe just my feelings but they hit "everything" even through cover )

Stunning enemies with baton is much harder now (you can miss some shots here and there). I am ok with this change (hit chance being based on reflexes) but I would reduce TU spent for melee actions (for both knife and baton from 25% > 20% TU)

I am not sure about changes to funding system (need more time for testing) but I have noticed that base structures cost a lot more money than before but you haven´t mentioned it in the patch notes (just aircraft changes)?

 

• The invasion has been tweaked so that the player needs to run fewer missions in the first couple of months of the campaign. The appearance of Scout UFOs and Destroyer UFOs has been moved forward slightly, and the Cleaner storyline now takes a bit longer to resolve (over the same number of missions). This means the time spent using each equipment tech tier is more even, rather than having lots of missions fighting with the Warden and Accelerated weapons and then being rushed through the later equipment tiers.

I am not fun of this change. There are weeks without any activity now. I had just one crash site with Scout UFO (btw full of Servitors) before medium UFO (destroyer) shown.

Give us more time/missions with basic UFO and cleaners pls. Maybe add some "Scout" UFO variety (light scout, medium scout with different UFO weapons, crew etc ,,,,... )

I have no problem figting with basic gear or magnetic weapons. Maybe add some possibility to get more advanced versions of them (if you capture specific alien or smth).

We should have enough time to enjoy our new toys in every phase.

Good amount of different missions is the way to go:)

I don't think I've done anything specific that would make the enemies more deadly - not in terms of improving their stats, at least. It's possible the AI improvements have made them more dangerous, or the way I've made the aliens spawn a couple of weeks earlier and reworked the alien crews (in some cases to have more aliens) has caused this. Does it feel too hard now? On Commander the enemies do get a significant Accuracy buff, but I think it has been that way since Milestone 2.

Yes, I've increased the cost of many base structures, particularly the Medical Center and Training Room. I forgot to include that in the changelogs; I'll update that to make sure it gets captured for the final Milestone 4 patch notes.

Yeah, the Scout is meant to be a "practice" UFO before the Destroyer starts appearing, and I've moved the Destroyer forwards. I think you're right that there's not enough UFO activity in Month 2 though, looking at the timeline. I might change that slightly, and add another wave in.

[Rakiii]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

I don't think I've done anything specific that would make the enemies more deadly - not in terms of improving their stats, at least. It's possible the AI improvements have made them more dangerous, or the way I've made the aliens spawn a couple of weeks earlier and reworked the alien crews (in some cases to have more aliens) has caused this. Does it feel too hard now? On Commander the enemies do get a significant Accuracy buff, but I think it has been that way since Milestone 2.

Yes, I've increased the cost of many base structures, particularly the Medical Center and Training Room. I forgot to include that in the changelogs; I'll update that to make sure it gets captured for the final Milestone 4 patch notes.

Yeah, the Scout is meant to be a "practice" UFO before the Destroyer starts appearing, and I've moved the Destroyer forwards. I think you're right that there's not enough UFO activity in Month 2 though, looking at the timeline. I might change that slightly, and add another wave in.

Enemies felt stronger but maybe just bad luck. It feels right now.

Yeah I couldn´t afford to build my typical starting buildings bcos of this change. It might feel ok later but it´s rather annoying at the beginning. Maybe increased starting funds by 500k could help.

Less UFO activity also means lower income.

Edited May 28 by Rakiii

[Rakiii]

some more hints: 

- There have been no Sebillians (just Servitors in missions)

- Melee weapons (baton, knife) are harder to use now (changed functionality, you can miss now)

   I am fine with the change but I would reduce TU spent to compensate (from 25% TU > 20%); I would also reduce weight of knife to 8

  - Upgraded version of knife disappeared after researching (no knife to pick)

Edited May 29 by Rakiii

[ADederer]

Having played through to the end, the initial deadliness faded, but slowly, I saw multiple submachine gun bursts hit 3 for 3 out at 10 odd squares (generally writing off a "naught").  Once the tech started catching up, things got easier (accelerated weapons actually have an age now!).  Progression seems smoother (but getting the proper load for the cleaner base is trapped behind a logjam of tech).

1.  Air to air was smoother and easier.  Micromanagement isn't needed, just keeping up.  I think the heavy laser and particle beam may be blind alleys now.  Double slugthrowers and armor seem to be where it's at.

2.  Money is only tight in a few spots.  Expansion early is quite doable (getting the needed aircraft, that's a different issue.

3.  First time I gave a secondary base engineering (for upgrades etc..) also noted that security bots need living quarters now..

4.  Radar and new base elevators are pricy, this both impacts when 2-3 radar coverage happens, and the upkeep keeps on biting.

5.  Lasers have their age (the end of the cleaners to the first alien base assault).  Problems, they are STILL the only weapon with real ammo issues, and by the time they get an upgrade, they are obsolete.

6.  Guardian armor is VERY awkward to work in.  Power armor overtakes it VERY quickly (if you can afford it).

7.  Gauss seems good enough for the endgame, supplemented with Particle guns.

8.  Once you get 2-3 bases going, resources and to a lesser extent money are rarely much of an issue.  After Cruisers, time is really the only one (the tech tree fades out).

9.  Observer/Abductor is the "crazy" time for tech, keeping up is pretty much impossible, you have to set priorities.

10.  The late ships are HUGE, but open and not THAT populated.  I took both fairly easily.  

11.  Will have to see how the late mission goes, but Colossi look like a solution in search of a problem (the late ships have the space to flank in).  They'd be much more useful earlier.  Haven't tried them at the Alien base yet.  Are they supposed to get a Grenade launcher?  Look neat, but graphic bug only the first suit has leg animations the others shrink and "scoot".  Also, I keep wanted to tell them "Grandma what BIG eyes you have!"

12.  Keeping wounds on unconscious aliens, allowing melee to miss and keeping the good non-lethal stuff for midgame threatens to make getting needed captures done in a timely manner MUCH more difficult.  Having your "prisoner" die after you move on (and no, you can't heal them) could delay getting medical upgrades (and that could be fatal).

13,  Biggest rookie PITA.  Low-strength crew who have to skimp and can't carry ANY grenades.  Granted, part of this is that riflemen are my designated medics (module AND pack), but 40 strength is a real barrier.

 

[Chris]

On 5/29/2024 at 10:02 AM, Rakiii said:

some more hints: 

- There have been no Sebillians (just Servitors in missions)

- Melee weapons (baton, knife) are harder to use now (changed functionality, you can miss now)

   I am fine with the change but I would reduce TU spent to compensate (from 25% TU > 20%); I would also reduce weight of knife to 8

  - Upgraded version of knife disappeared after researching (no knife to pick)

Thanks. Yeah, UFOs generally have three crews now - Sectons, Sebillians or Wraiths (who have Sevitors backing them up). You might just be unlucky and not encountering Sebillians? I'll see if there's a way we can guarantee some kind of introduction to them on a ground mission.

The upgraded knife disappearing issue is fixed now. I'll have a think about changing the TU cost on melee weapons.

[Chris]

16 hours ago, ADederer said:

Having played through to the end, the initial deadliness faded, but slowly, I saw multiple submachine gun bursts hit 3 for 3 out at 10 odd squares (generally writing off a "naught").  Once the tech started catching up, things got easier (accelerated weapons actually have an age now!).  Progression seems smoother (but getting the proper load for the cleaner base is trapped behind a logjam of tech).

1.  Air to air was smoother and easier.  Micromanagement isn't needed, just keeping up.  I think the heavy laser and particle beam may be blind alleys now.  Double slugthrowers and armor seem to be where it's at.

2.  Money is only tight in a few spots.  Expansion early is quite doable (getting the needed aircraft, that's a different issue.

3.  First time I gave a secondary base engineering (for upgrades etc..) also noted that security bots need living quarters now..

4.  Radar and new base elevators are pricy, this both impacts when 2-3 radar coverage happens, and the upkeep keeps on biting.

5.  Lasers have their age (the end of the cleaners to the first alien base assault).  Problems, they are STILL the only weapon with real ammo issues, and by the time they get an upgrade, they are obsolete.

6.  Guardian armor is VERY awkward to work in.  Power armor overtakes it VERY quickly (if you can afford it).

7.  Gauss seems good enough for the endgame, supplemented with Particle guns.

8.  Once you get 2-3 bases going, resources and to a lesser extent money are rarely much of an issue.  After Cruisers, time is really the only one (the tech tree fades out).

9.  Observer/Abductor is the "crazy" time for tech, keeping up is pretty much impossible, you have to set priorities.

10.  The late ships are HUGE, but open and not THAT populated.  I took both fairly easily.  

11.  Will have to see how the late mission goes, but Colossi look like a solution in search of a problem (the late ships have the space to flank in).  They'd be much more useful earlier.  Haven't tried them at the Alien base yet.  Are they supposed to get a Grenade launcher?  Look neat, but graphic bug only the first suit has leg animations the others shrink and "scoot".  Also, I keep wanted to tell them "Grandma what BIG eyes you have!"

12.  Keeping wounds on unconscious aliens, allowing melee to miss and keeping the good non-lethal stuff for midgame threatens to make getting needed captures done in a timely manner MUCH more difficult.  Having your "prisoner" die after you move on (and no, you can't heal them) could delay getting medical upgrades (and that could be fatal).

13,  Biggest rookie PITA.  Low-strength crew who have to skimp and can't carry ANY grenades.  Granted, part of this is that riflemen are my designated medics (module AND pack), but 40 strength is a real barrier.

Thanks, this is good stuff. A few thoughts:

I suppose Cleaners having 3-round burst SMGs can cause damage spikes when they highroll with their hit rolls and hit all three shots. You'll probably remember whenever it happens because it'll inflict a lot of damage until you get Warden armour. Not sure if I'll change that though; I do want the player to lose plenty of soldiers in the early game, as it's very X-Com in feel and it also makes getting proper armour feel more worthwhile.

What you're saying about the Cleaner Base is interesting - what do you think the required loadout is for the mission? I'd have thought that Warden armour and Accelerated weapons should be enough; are you waiting for Lasers and / or Guardian armour?

Sentry guns shouldn't need living space, just storeroom space. If that's not how it works then please make a bug report for it (ideally with saves) and we'll get it fixed.

Yeah, the late game has a lot less balancing than the early game - it's very time consuming to play that deep into the game. It might well be that there's not enough aliens in the late UFOs, and that they're not strong enough to make Gauss weapons a bit obselete. I'll keep an eye on that.

Interesting point about keeping stunned aliens alive when you try to capture them, now we've disallowed healing aliens. That's probably very frustrating. We'll have a think about how to address that.

For the Colossus (or the Exosuit), if you're having animation issues with it then please make a bug report so we can fix it.

I think you make a good point that the Colossus might actually be better if introduced earlier - I'm wondering if it makes sense to swap the Colossus and Exosuit around, and then maybe have an upgrade for the Colossus unlocked off the Harvester that improves its armour. The Exosuit is a very strong suit of general-purpose armour that has very few disadvantages, so it would kinda makes sense if it was the "ultimate" armour. Whereas the Colossus could be the first crude exosuit design; very tough but with some serious disadvantages, which means you'd want to build a few of them but it doesn't totally replace the Guardian / Stealthsuit.

[ADederer]

40 minutes ago, Chris said:

Thanks, this is good stuff. A few thoughts:

I suppose Cleaners having 3-round burst SMGs can cause damage spikes when they highroll with their hit rolls and hit all three shots. You'll probably remember whenever it happens because it'll inflict a lot of damage until you get Warden armour. Not sure if I'll change that though; I do want the player to lose plenty of soldiers in the early game, as it's very X-Com in feel and it also makes getting proper armour feel more worthwhile.

What you're saying about the Cleaner Base is interesting - what do you think the required loadout is for the mission? I'd have thought that Warden armour and Accelerated weapons should be enough; are you waiting for Lasers and / or Guardian armour?

Sentry guns shouldn't need living space, just storeroom space. If that's not how it works then please make a bug report for it (ideally with saves) and we'll get it fixed.

Yeah, the late game has a lot less balancing than the early game - it's very time consuming to play that deep into the game. It might well be that there's not enough aliens in the late UFOs, and that they're not strong enough to make Gauss weapons a bit obselete. I'll keep an eye on that.

Interesting point about keeping stunned aliens alive when you try to capture them, now we've disallowed healing aliens. That's probably very frustrating. We'll have a think about how to address that.

For the Colossus (or the Exosuit), if you're having animation issues with it then please make a bug report so we can fix it.

I think you make a good point that the Colossus might actually be better if introduced earlier - I'm wondering if it makes sense to swap the Colossus and Exosuit around, and then maybe have an upgrade for the Colossus unlocked off the Harvester that improves its armour. The Exosuit is a very strong suit of general-purpose armour that has very few disadvantages, so it would kinda makes sense if it was the "ultimate" armour. Whereas the Colossus could be the first crude exosuit design; very tough but with some serious disadvantages, which means you'd want to build a few of them but it doesn't totally replace the Guardian / Stealthsuit.

Will get the bug reports in.  The sentry guns wouldn't transfer without living space.

 

I want to have 12 spaces of troops and lasers (and preferably level 2 explosives) to take the cleaner base.  Which is probably overkill, but luck swings around the sentry guns can cripple a "shoestring" attempt very easily.  All that armor..  And the big brains in the HQ waiting to rack up the fatalities..

The early fights are often bianary, either the aliens/cleaners miss or someone dies.  A bad run can cost me 3 guys easily.  Warden armor smooths this out..  Doesn't come back til plasma..

Part of the reason Gaus tends to stick around is that you get the Pegasus around the time you get particle guns.  You want to have viable weapons and leftover lasers won't cut it.  So particles supplement, not replace, gauss.  Gauss starts to feel weedy when the giant aliens become common., but it'll do.

Colossus should be immune to suppression (alien automatic fire stacking suppress can just wreck your team in narrow confines).  

[Nils]

A few things I have noticed.

First of all I would really appreciate, that if a soldier is standing right next to an alien, the soldier should not be able to miss the shot. In my opinion it does not make sense, even with a snapshot of a rifle to have like a 60% miss chance if the alien stands next to you.

Second, the ARES Plattform (successor of MARS) has much lower health, even though it says, that because it does not have moving parts, the armor plating can be much thicker. At this point of the game, the aliens do a lot of damage, which is fine. But the ARES should not be weaker than MARS, in fact it should be stronger.

Third, in the tactical battle, I would really like to see the most 4 important stats of a soldier without going to his inventory. Accuracy, reflexes, health (already done) and time units (already done).

 

[Skitso]

2 hours ago, Nils said:

...the soldier should not be able to miss the shot. In my opinion it does not make sense, even with a snapshot of a rifle to have like a 60% miss chance if the alien stands next to you.

These situations start to make a lot more sense as soon as you realise a single turn is only a few seconds slice of a fast paced dynamic combat. Even if the units seem to be standing still in a turn based game like Xenonauts 2, the situation the game simulates is chaotic and full of variables that can make even a seasoned soldier to miss a shot.

Edited May 31 by Skitso

[Chris]

2 hours ago, Nils said:

A few things I have noticed.

First of all I would really appreciate, that if a soldier is standing right next to an alien, the soldier should not be able to miss the shot. In my opinion it does not make sense, even with a snapshot of a rifle to have like a 60% miss chance if the alien stands next to you.

Second, the ARES Plattform (successor of MARS) has much lower health, even though it says, that because it does not have moving parts, the armor plating can be much thicker. At this point of the game, the aliens do a lot of damage, which is fine. But the ARES should not be weaker than MARS, in fact it should be stronger.

Third, in the tactical battle, I would really like to see the most 4 important stats of a soldier without going to his inventory. Accuracy, reflexes, health (already done) and time units (already done).

 

Ah, good point about the ARES having less health than the MARS - I'll fix it so they're the same for the next patch. The ARES always has +5 Armour compared to the same armour on the MARS so it will be tougher once I fix the ARES to also have 100HP.

I don't think I want to set the game up so that you have a 100% hit chance with any weapon at point-blank range; I don't think it'll make the game balance better. There's less room for soldier improvement and less room for making the weapons distinct from one another if we do that (e.g. why would you need shotguns if rifles can hit with all the shots from a 3-round burst?)

You can quickly see the soldier accuracy in the bottom right hit info panel as soon as you hover over an enemy (or hold Ctrl to force fire).

[Skitso]

On 5/30/2024 at 6:24 PM, Chris said:

Yeah, UFOs generally have three crews now - Sectons, Sebillians or Wraiths (who have Sevitors backing them up).

What about the mantis then? I've had them in a couple of UFO's with no backup units whatsoever..

 

EDIT: What I mean is that should wraiths be accompanied with sebillian? If so, it's not happening at the moment.

Edited June 1 by Skitso

[Chris]

2 hours ago, Skitso said:

What about the mantis then? I've had them in a couple of UFO's with no backup units whatsoever..

 

EDIT: What I mean is that should wraiths be accompanied with sebillian? If so, it's not happening at the moment.

Scouts can contain just Mantids, or I think just Sectons. From destroyers onwards it’s either Psyons / Sectons, Sebillians / Mantids, or Wraith / Servitors. Plus the appropriate terror unit as the campaign goes on.

[Warie_W00kie]

In order to see the whole team without scrolling, would it be possible to make this window longer?   

 

[Warie_W00kie]

Thanks for this update guys!  I had a lot of fun completing it.  My thoughts on the playthrough (commander):

Visual / Audio Updates:

• Loved the new artwork and the retextures.  I haven't noticed any major graphic issues.
• The sound update is welcomed and made the game feel mor polished.  Not all the samples are created equal though.  I really liked the weapon switch, melee misses, and the inventory management.  The negative: Enemy shots hitting the shield only play sometimes and the volume is very low.  Some of the menu sounds are a little too loud.  Healing sounds like ducktape and sunscreen spray.

 

Balance Changes - Strategy:

1. Invasion tweaks

The invasion tweaks during early game felt tight and the pace is good.  I think running the Cleaner missions and the UFO invasion together, instead of one phase into another is a good idea.  It kept me on my toes and offered a good variety of missions.

I always felt the Cleaner storyline added to the gameplay, seeing it end so early on previous builds felt like the multifaceted missions and story ended abruptly and I'm left playing mid to late game with just shooting down UFO's.  Even with the new addition of capturing alien officer and alien leader, the skeleton for mid to end game still look like it's missing something.

2. Funding

Regarding funding change, the rebalancing is going in the right direction.  The added funds allow for smoother progression, instead of being broke all the time and then F4 until a new mission or UFO spawn.  This last until around day 180.

I'm also glad to see funding linked to Panic again.  Seeing panic go up and down more often throughout the month will add an element of tension that I think make things more interesting.  That being said, the balance needs more tweaking as the difficulty was very easy even on commander.  Every UFO spawn and cleaner mission can be completed while keeping up with upgrades and rotation of healthy soldiers. It was fairly easy to get panic to 0 and have it stay that way throughout the entire playthrough.  

The exception is one real sweaty month (and surprisingly the same as previous builds) when the Abductors first show up.  It was a mad tech climb that required all the funding as either the planes are too slow/weak to fight the UFO's or ground team need more recovery/replacement time due to weak gear.  Deciding which country can take the panic hit so I can get the proper upgrades was the high point of the playthrough.  Need more moments like these.  

3. Air Combat

Significant changes were made this build.  The return of unlimited guns and missiles sacrifice realism for gameplay, and I think it's a good move.  In the last build, missiles cost way too much for the damage they do so the only way to win air encounters is to go twin guns for every UFO type.

With the updated payload and hardpoint system, having the right guns/missiles/torpedoes setup to combat different UFO matchups are starting to take form.  Having different evasive roll cooldowns between planes/UFO is a great idea, maybe have it linked to the payload of the plane can take this idea further.  

Having weapons that can shoot down missiles is also a good idea, but I didn't see it happen during this playthrough, am I missing something?

There is an exploit in air combat right now for torpedoes.  Since they cost only 1 hardpoint, you can equip a pair of angels with total of 6 torpedoes and nuke the UFOs.  The Fighter escorts are no threat since the torpedoes will destroy the main alien craft and escape before they get into shooting range.  3 Fighter air superiority can be dealt with by nullifying their rolls; start from their flank and firing torpedoes point blank (old Foxtrot trick in Xenonauts 1).  This strategy will work until Gemini's are required.

 

Balance Changes - Tactical Combat:

1. Melee

Melee attacks can now miss!  Stun rods from previous builds were pretty over-powered as they do the most stun and always hit.  In early game, I must now decide if more of my soldiers will sacrifice the weight of 2 grenades (which can make or break an encounter) for stun rods.   It now takes a conscious decision to get the damage bonuses/extra funding early game instead of it being a go-to strategy.

The energy blade is an interesting idea.  Right now, the damage is too low for it be useful but maybe give it limited charges to cause suppression on mechanical units for high reflex (and bravery lol) soldiers to carry instead of sidearm or med kit.

2. Cleaner mission awards

There is now a $200k reason for me to risk my soldiers for VIP extraction.

$200k for VIP elimination was too much as it was a huge money maker already.  The data sticks/Cleaner SMG are a given, but you also have more than enough turns to setup a stun on the VIP and spawn camp stun Cleaner Soldiers.  Every soldier on the team can complete the mission with a stunned Cleaner in their backpack.

I have always had a dilemma with Cleaner missions and funding.  I imagine one of the original intent for the Cleaner missions were to provide another way to make cash during early game.   However, not only is the income great, provide mission variety in addition to UFOs and they also reduce Panic so there is really no reason to destroy their base until the Cleaner activities stop at day 180.

 

Final Thoughts:

The early game feels pretty solid.  I think problems start to happen after the Cleaner arc ends, as the UFOs spawning rates are really low and abnormal missions (Terror/Abduction/Alien Base/Retaliation) didn't really have the impact it did in Xenonauts 1.  The threat of losing a funding nation wasn't really there.  

You guys make awesome games, keep it up!

 

Edited June 2 by Warie_W00kie

[Chris]

23 hours ago, Warie_W00kie said:

Thanks for this update guys!  I had a lot of fun completing it.  My thoughts on the playthrough (commander):

Visual / Audio Updates:

• Loved the new artwork and the retextures.  I haven't noticed any major graphic issues.
• The sound update is welcomed and made the game feel mor polished.  Not all the samples are created equal though.  I really liked the weapon switch, melee misses, and the inventory management.  The negative: Enemy shots hitting the shield only play sometimes and the volume is very low.  Some of the menu sounds are a little too loud.  Healing sounds like ducktape and sunscreen spray.

 

Balance Changes - Strategy:

1. Invasion tweaks

The invasion tweaks during early game felt tight and the pace is good.  I think running the Cleaner missions and the UFO invasion together, instead of one phase into another is a good idea.  It kept me on my toes and offered a good variety of missions.

I always felt the Cleaner storyline added to the gameplay, seeing it end so early on previous builds felt like the multifaceted missions and story ended abruptly and I'm left playing mid to late game with just shooting down UFO's.  Even with the new addition of capturing alien officer and alien leader, the skeleton for mid to end game still look like it's missing something.

2. Funding

Regarding funding change, the rebalancing is going in the right direction.  The added funds allow for smoother progression, instead of being broke all the time and then F4 until a new mission or UFO spawn.  This last until around day 180.

I'm also glad to see funding linked to Panic again.  Seeing panic go up and down more often throughout the month will add an element of tension that I think make things more interesting.  That being said, the balance needs more tweaking as the difficulty was very easy even on commander.  Every UFO spawn and cleaner mission can be completed while keeping up with upgrades and rotation of healthy soldiers. It was fairly easy to get panic to 0 and have it stay that way throughout the entire playthrough.  

The exception is one real sweaty month (and surprisingly the same as previous builds) when the Abductors first show up.  It was a mad tech climb that required all the funding as either the planes are too slow/weak to fight the UFO's or ground team need more recovery/replacement time due to weak gear.  Deciding which country can take the panic hit so I can get the proper upgrades was the high point of the playthrough.  Need more moments like these.  

3. Air Combat

Significant changes were made this build.  The return of unlimited guns and missiles sacrifice realism for gameplay, and I think it's a good move.  In the last build, missiles cost way too much for the damage they do so the only way to win air encounters is to go twin guns for every UFO type.

With the updated payload and hardpoint system, having the right guns/missiles/torpedoes setup to combat different UFO matchups are starting to take form.  Having different evasive roll cooldowns between planes/UFO is a great idea, maybe have it linked to the payload of the plane can take this idea further.  

Having weapons that can shoot down missiles is also a good idea, but I didn't see it happen during this playthrough, am I missing something?

There is an exploit in air combat right now for torpedoes.  Since they cost only 1 hardpoint, you can equip a pair of angels with total of 6 torpedoes and nuke the UFOs.  The Fighter escorts are no threat since the torpedoes will destroy the main alien craft and escape before they get into shooting range.  3 Fighter air superiority can be dealt with by nullifying their rolls; start from their flank and firing torpedoes point blank (old Foxtrot trick in Xenonauts 1).  This strategy will work until Gemini's are required.

 

Balance Changes - Tactical Combat:

1. Melee

Melee attacks can now miss!  Stun rods from previous builds were pretty over-powered as they do the most stun and always hit.  In early game, I must now decide if more of my soldiers will sacrifice the weight of 2 grenades (which can make or break an encounter) for stun rods.   It now takes a conscious decision to get the damage bonuses/extra funding early game instead of it being a go-to strategy.

The energy blade is an interesting idea.  Right now, the damage is too low for it be useful but maybe give it limited charges to cause suppression on mechanical units for high reflex (and bravery lol) soldiers to carry instead of sidearm or med kit.

2. Cleaner mission awards

There is now a $200k reason for me to risk my soldiers for VIP extraction.

$200k for VIP elimination was too much as it was a huge money maker already.  The data sticks/Cleaner SMG are a given, but you also have more than enough turns to setup a stun on the VIP and spawn camp stun Cleaner Soldiers.  Every soldier on the team can complete the mission with a stunned Cleaner in their backpack.

I have always had a dilemma with Cleaner missions and funding.  I imagine one of the original intent for the Cleaner missions were to provide another way to make cash during early game.   However, not only is the income great, provide mission variety in addition to UFOs and they also reduce Panic so there is really no reason to destroy their base until the Cleaner activities stop at day 180.

 

Final Thoughts:

The early game feels pretty solid.  I think problems start to happen after the Cleaner arc ends, as the UFOs spawning rates are really low and abnormal missions (Terror/Abduction/Alien Base/Retaliation) didn't really have the impact it did in Xenonauts 1.  The threat of losing a funding nation wasn't really there.  

You guys make awesome games, keep it up!

 

Thanks. This is a very useful post.

I think I'm probably going to stop the Cleaner missions spawning as soon as the Cleaner Base is exposed, and then the player can just take out the base whenever they feel like it - but since destroying it awards both cash and a monthly funding increase, they'll be incentivised to do that immediately. I think that aligns incentives better than the current setup.

You're right that the mid-to-late game is still a bit lacking in variety. The plan is to add in some story elements to the end of the game in Milestone 5 that should hopefully tie everything together and give more of a purpose to the late game in the same way as the Cleaner arc gives the early game some purpose.

[Emily_F]

@Chris I have 4 so far:

1. I swear the chance-to-hit with any of the stun weapons is WAY lower than it claims in-game. 
2. I'm convinced the training facility isn't working
3. The rescue mission reward of three crap soldiers isn't worth it. 
4. The ambush mission is a turkey-shoot. 

[Chris]

12 hours ago, Emily_F said:

@Chris I have 4 so far:

1. I swear the chance-to-hit with any of the stun weapons is WAY lower than it claims in-game. 
2. I'm convinced the training facility isn't working
3. The rescue mission reward of three crap soldiers isn't worth it. 
4. The ambush mission is a turkey-shoot. 

Thanks. I've checked 1) in the game and it seems to work fine, but if you have a situation where it's wrong then do a bug report and I'll check the saves to see what the random rolls are and what the target number is. Similarly, with the training facility, send me a save and I'll take a look. It might just give very slow stat increases because we slowed it all down in Milestone 3.

The rescue missions now also give $50k per rescued soldier, as they're each carrying a Briefcase of Money.

We'll be taking another look at the Ambush missions some time this week.

[gG-Unknown]

On 6/1/2024 at 11:22 PM, Warie_W00kie said:

In order to see the whole team without scrolling, would it be possible to make this window longer?   

 

Same issue has more screens. Namely recruit new soldiers, warehouse, ...  .

For  some reason, there is a wierd UI style which think like this : when, ever there is a scrollbar, it means we the game offer so much content it cant  even fit the screen, so my goal as UI designer is to add as much scrollbars as possible.

 

Well, true is opposite. More scrollbars means less game. Great example is Darkest Dungeon where designers made main game screen such way that it offers all controls and iinformation withou camera movement, scrolling or other similar NON-gameplay input.

I support Warie_Wookie, asking for a revision of UI to remove as much scrolbars as possible. For example in warehouse, make items in two columns, so needing for scrolling is less. Recritment screen - limit number of soldiers available  to the size of window, so no scrollbar ever appears. and so on ...

[gG-Unknown]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

The rescue missions now also give $50k per rescued soldier, as they're each carrying a Briefcase of Money.

This information is written down in the pre-mission briefing. Perhaps make the briefcase an item in the inventory and add symbol similar to data=stick under the screen-top icon (for the carrier) - so player see the target(s) whole mission.

Best would be make 2 optional targets:

Get 3 soldiers on board (optional)

Get 3 briefcases on board (optional)

So, even if some VIP soldier die, it is still an option to get extra funds.

 

===================

It would also be nice if two soldiers of 3 were wounded and with endless-bleeding at the start of mission. (deep cut bleed which do not stop itself as usual bleed) So it creates :

1. a time preasure feel to bring medkit to them asap.

2. do not make  a risky attack move with fragile soldiers when one hit means death.

Edited June 3 by gG-Unknown

[Decius]

I feel like stun batons miss too much for how many TUs they use. If nerfing them was intended maybe reduce the damage or increase the TU cost or add an aimed strike that always hits.