Larval infestation should offer dilema

[gG-Unknown]

Larva infestation can offer more  hard decisions.

Current  status : after mele attack soldier is infested in a  form of zombie. He is not under control of player. It gives no options  for player, no decision making.

Idea : Give player an opportunity to  control  a "dead man walking". Add a symbol, similar to bleeding, in the same spot in top screen area, which count down  from 3. After infestation  it takes 3 turns to turn into zombie. Player can use a soldier who is dead already for a suicide  reckon  mission,  or even  blow self in front of enemy with a  grenade. In zombie mod it lasts another 3 turns but it is enemy, then eventually turn into Reaper.

On top, cut  all base stats of infested soldier to half immediately, also  use zombie walk animation set, and let player control him. Just make sure  player feels suffering -  change base numbers also change Acc & TU. So the player has a soldier in control for 3 rounds  who is destined to die. It means, player  have to make decision, how he die to cause lowest damage to  the team. Hard dilema.

Based on Bravery stat,  soldier can panic in fear of inevitable  death. Soldier who is infested AND in panic mode is considered as friend by Alien AI.

It is also possible add research med-evac capsule for landing  chopper, which can hold one soldier. Capsule prevents  terminal stage of infestation and turns it into  wound needing 21 days of healing. (it need to be so long, becaouse of another dilema - perhaps it better let him die than block Hospital capacity) Med-evac capsule can be also used for rise up survival chance of a dead soldier. Player have to pick up dead soldier and put it in the capsule to make it work. Again, player have  to make hard decision who deserve to be saved. After research, Capsule is just one per chopper, at maximum.

----------------------------------------

Based on the contribution of others forumites, here is updated latest  proposal :

After infestation it takes 1-3 turns to develop alien inside, based on bravery attribute. It means brave soldiers could handle infestation longer, but player dont know how long it lasts. Status of infestation should be announced same way as bleeding - small icon on top screen info panel. Get noticed, player get the information about Status - infested, but not how much time left.

Soldier who is infested gets a zombie walk animation set, and his TU budget is lowered by 10%.

It means, player could use infested soldier for solid part of mission with lower performance, but uncertainty has a risk it could suddenly turns and attack former colleagues. If mission ends before infestation develop, soldier is considered dead anyway. e.i. once infested there is no way back.

 

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by gG-Unknown

[Komandos]

1 hour ago, gG-Unknown said:

Larva infestation can offer more  hard decisions

This proposal will lead to easier solutions to the problem that has arisen. If earlier the player had 0+1 =1 Turn to solve the problem, now the player will have 3+1=4 Turns to solve the problem.

[Conductiv]

I fail to see the dilemma,

currently the zombie occurs upon soldier death, the zombie is hostile and AI controlled, if 3 turns pass or the zombie is killed a new reaper appears. in most missions where reapers occur, you will have to kill your former comrade.

your suggestion would allow the player to use the dead soldier like a kamikazi, instead of the soldier being a hostile combatant, for a duration of 3 turns. with the addition of a tech suggestion that would allow you to save the trooper outright.

if he's dead anyway...being a suicide bomber is a better use then being an enemy. if he can be saved, the threat of the reaper is significantly reduced. I can't see any downsides that would make it a dilemma

[gG-Unknown]

16 hours ago, Conductiv said:

I fail to see the dilemma,

allow the player to use the dead soldier like a kamikazi, instead of the soldier being a hostile combatant, for a duration of 3 turns. with the addition of a tech suggestion that would allow you to save the trooper outright.

Well, on second thought, it is not a classic dilemma situation.

Rather grim selection of death. You described it properly. Player have to make a decision :

How to die in 3 turns, to give best benefit to my team.

Perhaps my recommended idea can be based on Bravery stat as option to current status.

When soldier get infested he makes bravery roll, if he fail he turn into zombie-enemy immediately (current status)

if soldier succeed bravery roll, then he turn into zombie-friendly ( he get the zombie walk and lowered stats, but player can still control him.) Brave soldier wants to help the team to the end. It should add an communication-explanation from "Operation commander" Lady. Soldiers who die this way, zombie-kamikadze-controled by player, get the highest rank medal in memoriam.

Zombie state duration is 3 turns in both cases.

Soldier will die anyway, but there are options, progress is not always the same. I think the situation when player deliberately kill the Brave soldier for greater good is precious moment of gameplay. Whole gameplay, The Player is in the situation of underdog who fight nails and tooth with stronger opponent.

Does it sound better ?

 

Edited November 25, 2023 by gG-Unknown

[Komandos]

15 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

Soldier will die anyway, but there are options, progress is not always the same. I think the situation when player deliberately kill the Brave soldier for greater good is precious moment of gameplay. Whole gameplay, The Player is in the situation of underdog who fight nails and tooth with stronger opponent.

Does it sound better ?

1. Your soldiers are 100% likely to die sooner or later if they participate in a sufficiently large number of battles. (The probability of dying in one battle is about 1-3 chances out of 9 possible).

2. The balance of forces in the game is such that the player's soldiers are more effective on the battlefield than the alien soldiers. (The player almost never loses a battle, even against superior alien forces). If the death rate among the player's soldiers in the game exceeded the death rate among the alien soldiers, then there would be no need for your proposal at all.

 

[ooey]

1. Not if you protect your elite troops properly (you should be able to husband them up to good stats)! I find it's best to give your troops shields and make their weapons secondary (i.e. put them in the back pack). Also make the best snipers who operate to the rear. Keep them near the dropship and you should be okay as the others fan out (keep a shielded "Batman" to guard them and never take too many "elite" troopers on a mission). But sure, you are always going to lose some of them.

2. The different kinds of foe (flying etc.) help to keep the aliens competitive, but yes, there's no substitute for good AI. I think at current the aliens have psionics, don't they, but your soldiers don't? Nor should they be given this ability. It was real difficult to attack a Carrier in Xen1 because of this (powerful Psionic aliens would stay in the control room and make it difficult for your men to get to them)!  It was a bit unfair though because if they were the last aliens, psionics should really work by line of sight, but I think Xen1 cheated in that respect.

Edited December 7, 2023 by ooey

[Komandos]

4 hours ago, ooey said:

1. Not if you protect your elite troops properly (you should be able to husband them up to good stats)! I find it's best to give your troops shields and make their weapons secondary (i.e. put them in the back pack). Also make the best snipers who operate to the rear. Keep them near the dropship and you should be okay as the others fan out (keep a shielded "Batman" to guard them and never take too many "elite" troopers on a mission). But sure, you are always going to lose some of them.

If you make the aliens weak enough and make the player's soldiers strong enough, then indeed: the player's soldiers will not be in danger. But also: then the player will not have serious and difficult tactical tasks. If you increase the difficulty level of the battle; make the aliens strong enough, and make the player's soldiers weak enough, then nothing will give you a guarantee that the aliens will not destroy all your soldiers and win the battle.

[ooey]

I found that xen1 (ironman) had just about the right balance. And it does really affect you if you lose just a few elite troopers. I lost my best trooper unexpededly to a reaper who appeared to be dead but "woke up" somehow! The different game levels negate the too easy/hard comments somewhat, but I think this generally only boils down to having a bit more/less money and less/more aliens to fight mechanic somewhat.

Of course the trick is to make you feel that things arent a doddle, neither are they impossible; sometimes thats hard to get right. 

Laval infestations can absolutely decimate a squad if you're not careful. That's why the suggestions of the OP are good ones I think.

Edited December 8, 2023 by ooey

[gG-Unknown]

On 12/7/2023 at 11:41 PM, ooey said:

I found that xen1 (ironman) had just about the right balance. And it does really affect you if you lose just a few elite troopers. I lost my best trooper unexpededly to a reaper ...

Of course the trick is to make you feel that things arent a doddle, ...

That's why the suggestions of the OP are good ones I think.

I edited your post, to highlight the important ideas. I hope we are on the same wave.

The proposed change "larval infestation delay"  is not meant as easier for player. It is not meant to save soldiers.

It is created  purposely for a situation, when a player is forced to decide by himself  how his soldier die.

Make player feel the desperation moment - "I am going to die, but I am going to do one last right thing."

Edited December 9, 2023 by gG-Unknown

[ooey]

Sure, as you control your soldiers, you would always want them to die heroically! I get what you are trying to say though.

As an aside, I don't happen to think that infested soldiers are easy to deal with. Your soldiers set up to guard against a  reaper attack may indeed have high reaction ratings, but what if they actually miss as 1 or 2 come in? If I had an infested soldier, I'd probably want him to grenade himself as I know what he turns into!

Like I said, a single infested soldier can quickly turn a mission around. Of course, they can be totally negated by flying soldiers (or can they, I haven't got that far yet in Xen2 to know?).

Edited December 9, 2023 by ooey

[Pathfinder]

I wish, I can join to the topic, however, I never allow reapers to reach my squad :D. But yes, heroic death is better than pointless, dull death. But 3 turns I think is too much. 3 turns, usually is 1/2 or 1/3 of whole mission. In such case I would prefer to have max 2 turns before death.

[Komandos]

On 12/9/2023 at 10:34 PM, ooey said:

Sure, as you control your soldiers, you would always want them to die heroically! I get what you are trying to say though.

If the player wants to see the heroic death of his soldiers, then the easiest way to achieve this is to create a combat mission with significantly superior enemy forces.

In Xenonauts: The player really loses too few soldiers, so there are too few dramatic moments in the game.

[ooey]

Doesnt that depend on how you play though? The timed missions certainly hurry you along, meaning you can't be cautious and are thus more likely to lose soldiers (especially if there are Reapers around).

Are there any "do or die" missions I don't know about (apart from the obvious one at the end)? That might spice things up a bit.

For me, killing alien Bombers in Xen 1 was a do or die mission as they could cause an awful lot of damage if you left them to their own devices.

Edited December 15, 2023 by ooey

[Komandos]

3 hours ago, ooey said:

Doesnt that depend on how you play though?

If we take, for comparison, the old UFO:2 game, in which the player loses 6-13 soldiers out of 14 in every battle from the very first day of the game (especially for battles in which units like Chryssalids participate from aliens), then the level of drama in the game in the old UFOs is much higher than in Xenonauts. where the player often wins the battle without any losses at all. In Xenonauts, players lack drama during combat.

Also, the game Xenonauts is inferior to UFO in epic battles. As a comparison, the final and general battles in UFO and Xenonauts are incomparable in terms of scale and number of losses on the part of the player and the aliens.

Edited December 15, 2023 by Komandos

[gG-Unknown]

On 12/9/2023 at 9:35 PM, Pathfinder said:

 yes, heroic death is better than pointless, dull death. But 3 turns I think is too much. 3 turns, usually is 1/2 or 1/3 of whole mission. In such case I would prefer to have max 2 turns before death.

Good argument. For adding a bit uncertainty, lets say:

After infestation it takes 1-3 turns to develop alien inside, based on bravery attribute. It means brave soldiers could handle infestation longer, but player dont know how long it lasts. Status of infestation should be announced same way as bleeding - small icon on top screen info panel. Get noticed, player get the information about Status - infested, but not how much time left.

Soldier who is infested gets a zombie walk animation set, and his TU budget is lowered by 10%.

It means, player could use infested soldier for solid part of mission with lower performance, but uncertainty has a risk it could suddenly turns and attack former colleagues.

 

How does it sounds ?

Edited December 15, 2023 by gG-Unknown

[ooey]

20 hours ago, Komandos said:

...

I don't know. I found Xen1 pretty taxing, but yes perhaps not as taxing as UFO. Did you think UFO: EU was taxing because of the Blaster bomb inclusion for the aliens? The player could also use it too though (along with Proximity Grenades).

What I would assume a decent end game mission to be would be to have all the different types of alien against you (including Reapers/Chrisilyds or thatever they are called here). If there's a timer involved there to then that would make it pretty hectic. The end mission in UFO was good - fight your way to the alien control computer and destroy it to win (like Rebelstar so many moons ago - 1986 in fact...). Actually, rather than a timer, since the end mission is on their planet, it would be better to fight your way in to the computer core and have to hold it until it's destroyed against endless reinforcements coming in from outside (at which point all the surviving xens become heroes of the earth). This may mean that you could not have brought enough equipment with you and will have to use dead alien weaponry against them as your ammo runs out (forces you to have proficiancy with their weapons beforehand, and also stops you from destroying them with HE weaponry since you need theirs undamaged. I would expect an Alien Armoury within the final stage too (capturing it will make the mission easier, but create another dilema - it would slow down the final objective of destroying the computer core.

Perhaps the final mission could start with a hoarde of Reapers running towards you. Not nice! 

[gG-Unknown]

5 hours ago, ooey said:

to fight your way in to the computer core and have to hold it until it's destroyed against endless reinforcements coming in from outside (at which point all the surviving xens become heroes of the earth). This may mean that you could not have brought enough equipment with you and will have to use dead alien weaponry against them as your ammo runs out (forces you to have proficiancy with their weapons beforehand, and also stops you from destroying them with HE weaponry since you need theirs undamaged. I would expect an Alien Armoury within the final stage too (capturing it will make the mission easier, but create another dilema - it would slow down the final objective of destroying the computer core.

Perhaps the final mission could start with a hoarde of Reapers running towards you. Not nice! 

I like this final scenario. I would add - last objective o the scenario is hold position for 4 turns to get time set explosives. At the end it is the end. All xenonauts are heroes of the planet in memoriam.

There are two possible ending of the mission

- Big explosion - Everyone dies - success.

- No explosion - Everyone dies - aliens continue their plans - it is open ending allowing DLC  story.

Anyway stop derailing this thread. Here we  talk about better infestation process.

Thanks

Edited December 16, 2023 by gG-Unknown

[Komandos]

9 hours ago, ooey said:

I don't know. I found Xen1 pretty taxing, but yes perhaps not as taxing as UFO.

Xenonauts 1 was a tedious game because the range of view and range of the weapon were very small. (In UFO, the range of the weapon was not limited). Besides, the team of soldiers was small. As a result, the soldiers had to move in a very dense crowd and with very small steps. (Any alien that appeared out of the darkness immediately approached the dense one and presented a serious problem. Especially considering the fact that the player's soldiers liked to make "friendly fire" and suppress their neighbors. But the range of the view, the range of the gun and its low lethality, did not allow the soldiers to disperse.). 

[ooey]

18 hours ago, gG-Unknown said:

stop derailing this thread. Here we  talk about better infestation process.

Thanks

Regardless, we were having a nice discussion here (which even you contributed to) which is loosely based on what you were talking about. This is the kind of rudeness I'd expect from the rest of the internet, not intelligent people who play tactical combat games. Perhaps your comment seems a little harsh because English is your second language? We arent robots!

Don't worry. I shall not grace this topic again; I don't have an answer for you.

Edited December 17, 2023 by ooey

[Alienkiller]

I haven´t read the discussion fully, but I know what you mean with the Larva-Attack and evtl. Healing for your Soldiers.

I don´t like that special Alien (I hate it in old and new XCOM and as other Variants in Phoenix Point). And I like the System in Xenonauts 2, that this Alien have an 20% to 30% Chance to infect your Soldiers with the first 3 Attacks. If they would have an bigger Chance (like the problematic in old XCOM and Xenonauts 1), you need an Atomic Bomb and have to destroy the whole City or whatever Map instead.

[gG-Unknown]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:48 AM, Alienkiller said:

I haven´t read the discussion fully, but I know what you mean with the Larva-Attack and evtl. Healing for your Soldiers.

I don´t like that special Alien (I hate it in old and new XCOM and as other Variants in Phoenix Point). And I like the System in Xenonauts 2, that this Alien have an 20% to 30% Chance to infect your Soldiers with the first 3 Attacks. If they would have an bigger Chance (like the problematic in old XCOM and Xenonauts 1), you need an Atomic Bomb and have to destroy the whole City or whatever Map instead.

Topic is a bit chaotic. Here is the latest proposal.

I have updated the first post to keep the latest proposal easy to find.

 

After infestation it takes 1-3 turns to develop alien inside, based on bravery attribute. It means brave soldiers could handle infestation longer, but player dont know how long it lasts. Status of infestation should be announced same way as bleeding - small icon on top screen info panel. Get noticed, player get the information about Status - infested, but not how much time left.

Soldier who is infested gets a zombie walk animation set, and his TU budget is lowered by 10%.

It means, player could use infested soldier for solid part of mission with lower performance, but uncertainty has a risk it could suddenly turns and attack former colleagues. If mission ends before infestation develop, then soldier is considered dead anyway. e.i. once infested there is no way back.

 

How does it sounds ?

Edited December 19, 2023 by gG-Unknown

[Alienkiller]

Thanks gG-Unknown, now I understand better what you all means.

Sounds interresting. I would make it more interesting too with the later knowleadge of the Reapers (Autopsys), the 2 Weakness-R & D-Projects as well as the advanced / automated Medikit.

1. With an normal advanced Medkit / automated Medkit you have a Chance get the Comrade, Civilian, befriend Helper to stop the Zombification in the first 2 Rounds (like it get done in StarCraft 2 with Sarah Carrigan after they get catched from her Boyfriend Marshal Raynor). They have then brought in an Contimination Chamber until an real medicine get found. Means that saved Civilian, Police- or Army-Helper or in Worst Case an Pilot or Soldier of yours are not useable.

2. With the Autopsy-Report you get more Informations about that Infection, but have to do more R & D to get an antidot (like Trellium-D-Poison and the Antidot in Star Trek for the Vulcans). There helps too the atm 2 Weakness-Researches from the Workshop-Resarch.

3. With more R & D in Interrogations, Autopsys and Experiments you find an Antidot against the Larvas from the Reaper-Alien-Race, which have the Baby-Reapers and the Grown Up-Reapers. 

[Ruggerman]

May be that could be a research project, in that a drug or a device could be made to off set the lava infestation, by causing it to die, or getting it to evacuate from the host's body, and then you could kill it, but that would add another layer to the research table. Just a thought!!

[Alienkiller]

Very good Summerized Ruggermann. Excactly that I have in mind with the 3 Points more or less.

[gG-Unknown]

On 12/19/2023 at 10:57 AM, Alienkiller said:

Sounds interresting. I would make it more interesting too with the later knowleadge of the Reapers (Autopsys), the 2 Weakness-R & D-Projects as well as the advanced / automated Medikit.

Whole improved idea of larval infestation have to be :

1. easy to understand. e.i. Do not develop a game inside a game.

2. larval infestation is terminal decease. If some countermeasure exists, then it would be towards end game, AND as costly optional research. Which means, most players will not research it. I think game should have such things for repeated playthru. There should be more research projects than you could handle in one game.

3. Simple proposal of Larval infestation counter measure. After advanced medkit research done AND Reaper autopsy done. Reserach of Larval infestation Healing appears. It costs 6 days of research. Result is - Apply advanced medkit on Infested soldier, it makes him drug over-dose. Purpose is slow down body processes and put harmful substances into blood circulation. Soldier fell unconscious immediately after application.

Now player have to deliver soldier to hospital to actually heal him. It can be done by win the mission and controll battlefield (grounded UFO missions )or In case of raid missions like data sticks (land-assault-fly away) then unconscious infested body have to be carried back to chopper to get him into hospital.  Soldier have to spend 2 weeks in Hospital. As result of harmful substances used by healing procedures (to kill the larvas) and some consumed body parts, soldier suffer 15% reduction of : hit points,strength and reflex for rest of his life.

Edited January 3 by gG-Unknown