Snipers & heavy weapons

[Emily_F]

Large weapons like sniper rifles and heavy guns are not meant to be fired from a standing position.  I know I lost the argument back around V17 about introducing the prone position to increase accuracy and make troops harder to hit (I still think that combat missions would be much better if it was so, but hey ho!), but I really think that these weapons should have an accuracy penalty if not fired from a crouch.  I think the sniper rifle should also have a reaction penalty (with pistols having a reaction effect bonus) especially at short range.  One does not simply take pot-shots with, for example, an L115A3 because it has a long barrel and weighs a ton (making it hard to bring it to bear on a target in a hurry), and has a girt big scope on top that is useless at short range.  Similarly, a Gimpy is not amenable to quickfire use.  So ain't no alien getting a quick cap in his scaly green ass!  

I think these kind of changes that will put some clear water between different weapon systems and will make more of a difference to how you use/equip troops for a mission.  And give some variation to combat missions -  you will have to do a bit more thinking. 

That's my tuppence-worth anyway.  What do other people think, especially those who have recently joined the tester community?

 

[Alienkiller]

From what I have seen in my Tests is that the Heavy Weapons and Sniper-Rifles already have an Accuracy-Reduction after Moving, in Standing-Position and Reaction Fire. As well as for the LMG at Long Range and for the Sniper-Rifle at short Range.

Where I give you absolutly right is, that the Crounch-Bonus for Accuracy isn´t there. And not only for Heavy Weapons and Sniper-Rifles. That Crounch-Bonus is missing for all Shooting-Weapons (Rifle, Pistol, Shotgun etc.).

[Chthon]

Not sure how much crouching would assist with pistol, though having a supported position, i.e. cover and standing still, available would assist with aiming.

That being said, it would be nice if having cover did add some level of accuracy bonus for having a supported position as well. Being able to brace/rest the weapon on another object while aiming assists a lot when aiming. This is coming from someone who was in the military. In general you don't get as much benefit from it outside of a prone position, but you can still benefit in other firing positions. The main drawback is that it takes time to find the support, so maybe you wouldn't get it the turn you move into cover.

[Chris]

1 hour ago, Emily_F said:

Large weapons like sniper rifles and heavy guns are not meant to be fired from a standing position.  I know I lost the argument back around V17 about introducing the prone position to increase accuracy and make troops harder to hit (I still think that combat missions would be much better if it was so, but hey ho!), but I really think that these weapons should have an accuracy penalty if not fired from a crouch.  I think the sniper rifle should also have a reaction penalty (with pistols having a reaction effect bonus) especially at short range.  One does not simply take pot-shots with, for example, an L115A3 because it has a long barrel and weighs a ton (making it hard to bring it to bear on a target in a hurry), and has a girt big scope on top that is useless at short range.  Similarly, a Gimpy is not amenable to quickfire use.  So ain't no alien getting a quick cap in his scaly green ass!  

I think these kind of changes that will put some clear water between different weapon systems and will make more of a difference to how you use/equip troops for a mission.  And give some variation to combat missions -  you will have to do a bit more thinking. 

That's my tuppence-worth anyway.  What do other people think, especially those who have recently joined the tester community?

 

I'll let the community discuss this, but I'll just point out that the LMG in the first Xenonauts was indeed a GPMG ("gimpy") or perhaps whatever the US equivalent was, I forget. You're absolutely right that's a big 7.62 weapon not designed to be fired from a standing position or quickfired with.

But the equivalent gun in X2, which does less damage but costs less TU to fire, is a M249 Para. That's a 5.56 weapon that is designed to support hipfiring or potential close-quarters work, even if it is most effective when fired from prone. So I don't think there's to much that's inconsistent with the current use given the weapon choice (and it's also perfectly consistent with the use in popular games like Counterstrike and PUBG etc, or was when I played them).

[Ruggerman]

It would be very nice if the Troops in the game were able to go prone, as it is part a basic training to make yourself as small a target as possible. But that would introduce a lot a new variables to the games program, so although it would be nice, in practice it would be a long time in coming.

[alienman]

A bonus aim for crouching should be a thing - to add more tactical options to the battles.

[happystrawberry1]

I absolutely love to have the ability to have my troops prone. Not enough games do it now a days.

[Chthon]

On 7/12/2023 at 1:05 AM, alienman said:

A bonus aim for crouching should be a thing - to add more tactical options to the battles.

Come to think of it, I don't think I was trained to fire the M249 in a kneeling position at all, let alone a standing position unless it was mounted. I was trained to either fire it prone, or with it mounted and me in a seated or standing position. Of course if it's mounted, it could not be moved freely.

I'm not sure where Chris is coming from with it being used to clear buildings as that is not a common use for a squad automatic weapon.

Edit: Upon searching, I've seen images of rail mountings for a forward hand mount, but at a 17 pound weight for the weapon unloaded, compared to the M4 which is 7.267 pounds loaded with sling, it is not very reasonable to expect someone to hold it unsupported in a standing position. Every picture using the forward grip show them in a supported position, e.g. in a trench, or fox hole, not in a building.

Add to the fact that it's length is 30.75 - 36.25 in. with a collapsing stock, something that was not available when the weapon was first created, or 40.75 in. otherwise, and an M4 is 29.75 inches, it is also more unwieldly in a tight space.

I still remain skeptical that it was ever used to clear buildings, but rather used to lay supporting fire for squads.

Edited July 13, 2023 by Chthon

[Emily_F]

8 hours ago, Chthon said:

Come to think of it, I don't think I was trained to fire the M249 in a kneeling position at all, let alone a standing position unless it was mounted. I was trained to either fire it prone, or with it mounted and me in a seated or standing position. Of course if it's mounted, it could not be moved freely.

I'm not sure where Chris is coming from with it being used to clear buildings as that is not a common use for a squad automatic weapon.

Edit: Upon searching, I've seen images of rail mountings for a forward hand mount, but at a 17 pound weight for the weapon unloaded, compared to the M4 which is 7.267 pounds loaded with sling, it is not very reasonable to expect someone to hold it unsupported in a standing position. Every picture using the forward grip show them in a supported position, e.g. in a trench, or fox hole, not in a building.

Add to the fact that it's length is 30.75 - 36.25 in. with a collapsing stock, something that was not available when the weapon was first created, or 40.75 in. otherwise, and an M4 is 29.75 inches, it is also more unwieldly in a tight space.

I still remain skeptical that it was ever used to clear buildings, but rather used to lay supporting fire for squads.

Exactly. It's a fire support weapon to keep the enemy's head down while the assault fire team crawl up on their belt buckles to deliver some L109-shaped good news. 

As an aside I learned recently that they've binned the crow cannon off. But that the SA80 A3 is Gucci kit and even doesn't get cases stuck in the ejection chamber every third round  the minute it's over 25°C, there is a speck of dust kicking around or right at the moment you're trying to breach a building. And that's assuming the magazine didn't fall out.