What the H*ll was that!!

[Chefsbrian]

Its not the strength of the blades, as it is the way reapers employ them. Even the Predator armor has to have soft joints to allow the soldier to move properly, and all it takes is one good poke to fill you full of reaper eggs, and then its game over for you.

[Mathalor]

Who wants Bacon and Eggs?

MMMMMmmmmm

[legit1337]

And that is stupid and I hate it.

Since when can bones/claws match super-steel coated in matter-distrupting force fields?

Humanity didn't become #1 on the planet by our technology being inferior to natural weapons.

As a fan of warhammer 40k, I have to disagree.

I remember reading somewhere that genestealer claws are diamond tipped. Besides that, I think you are underestimating the power of bones/claws and "natural weapons". One of my buddies is a park ranger, and he said he saw the aftermath of a grizzly bear attack on a truck. The thing ripped the entire engine block right out of the chassis.

Now imagine a 10 foot tall, four armed, organic killing machine equipped with diamond tipped claws, that is probably 3-5 times as strong as even a genetically enhanced space marine, and has thousands of years of directed evolution behind it to breed it for killing humans. Does it sound so far fetched that they can claw their way through a few inches of adamantium?

I'm not saying they will rip through terminator armor like tissue paper, but come on...

No tyranid bias either, I'm a guard player.

The only thing a guardsman needs to hunt genestealers is his regulation flashlight, his cardboard box *cough* flak armor, his uplifting primer, and his standard-issue wheelbarrow to cart around his enormous brass balls.

The scientific and engineering knowledge and prowess of Humanity have certainly fallen a long way since the Dark Age of Technology.

HERESY! *BLAM*

Err, wait... am I allowed to *BLAM* a commissar?

Edited July 7, 2014 by legit1337

[DamianAyre]

As a fan of warhammer 40k, I have to disagree.

I remember reading somewhere that genestealer claws are diamond tipped. Besides that, I think you are underestimating the power of bones/claws and "natural weapons". One of my buddies is a park ranger, and he said he saw the aftermath of a grizzly bear attack on a truck. The thing ripped the entire engine block right out of the chassis.

Now imagine a 10 foot tall, four armed, organic killing machine equipped with diamond tipped claws, that is probably 3-5 times as strong as even a genetically enhanced space marine, and has thousands of years of directed evolution behind it to breed it for killing humans. Does it sound so far fetched that they can claw their way through a few inches of adamantium?

I'm not saying they will rip through terminator armor like tissue paper, but come on...

No tyranid bias either, I'm a guard player.

The only thing a guardsman needs to hunt genestealers is his regulation flashlight, his cardboard box *cough* flak armor, his uplifting primer, and his standard-issue wheelbarrow to cart around his enormous brass balls.

HERESY! *BLAM*

Err, wait... am I allowed to *BLAM* a commissar?

Diamond is good for drilling, not smashing into something, it is very hard, not strong, if you had a blade with a diamond tip the first time you tried to stab something as hard as carbon steel the diamond would break...

[TacticalDragon]

I was about to point the same thing.

I agree with trashman metallic and kinetic armors provide wondefull protection against biological attacks. If we were talking about a collosal monster it will be different but no, they are a bit taller than humans. The predator armor would prpvide protection against reaper attacks.

[SyDaemon]

You know, they could use the material that they've used to contain the Reaper for analysis to make armours. From the picture, it looks like it's holding its the Reaper in pretty well.

Unless, of course, we want to argue that the Reaper contained in base have been severely weakened.

[TrashMan]

As a fan of warhammer 40k, I have to disagree.

I remember reading somewhere that genestealer claws are diamond tipped. Besides that, I think you are underestimating the power of bones/claws and "natural weapons". One of my buddies is a park ranger, and he said he saw the aftermath of a grizzly bear attack on a truck. The thing ripped the entire engine block right out of the chassis.

Should I remind you that cars AREN'T armored? The chasis might as well be tinfoil.

Have you seen those anti-shark suits? they are basically chaimail.

If you had full plate, you could walk into the lions den and bit**slap those suckers.

Natural claws and teeth are (materials-wise) rahter shody compared to designed materials. Also, diamons aren't natural part of bilogicla growth, so no. You can't be born or develop diamond-tipped claws. Those diamons have to come from outside. Also, just puting a diamond tip is not some magical solution.

b.t.w. - the material of future isn't steel. It's carbon structures. There is one where the carbon atoms are aranged in a hexagon pattern. I forget it's name but it's 100 times stronger than steel and far, far lighter.

Now imagine a 10 foot tall, four armed, organic killing machine equipped with diamond tipped claws, that is probably 3-5 times as strong as even a genetically enhanced space marine, and has thousands of years of directed evolution behind it to breed it for killing humans. Does it sound so far fetched that they can claw their way through a few inches of adamantium?

Yes.

I also find it hard to belive genestealers are so strong, vien their thin, spindly arms. SM have generically enganced muscles (designed the God-Emprah! It is heresy to imply that those xeno muscles are more efficient) PLUS power armor.

I'm not saying they will rip through terminator armor like tissue paper, but come on...

Only if it goes for joints. But your hypothetical guy fighting in armor KNOWS where his weakspots are, and thus his fighting stlye would be one to make them hard to hit.

[GlyphGryph]

Probably worth remembering that the Reapers are short lived and have muscles literally powered by alienium, meaning they probably don't care if they damage themselves in the process of infecting a unit. They can probably generate a crapload of force.

[Mathalor]

The reaper, aka space honey badger.

[Orphan]

Probably worth remembering that the Reapers are short lived and have muscles literally powered by alienium, meaning they probably don't care if they damage themselves in the process of infecting a unit. They can probably generate a crapload of force.

Maybe, but their bodies do not seem optimized for applying that sort of leverage. The claws start too low on the back, and have to cross over the entire body. Now, if they were designed for a stabbing/boxing motion (like a rainbow shrimp) or a crushing/grappling motion (like a praying mantis) I could see that. But they look like their torso would prevent them from getting the momentum or leverage needed to punch through anything thicker than skin; and maybe even force-feeding the eggs to the victim.

[legit1337]

Diamond is good for drilling, not smashing into something, it is very hard, not strong, if you had a blade with a diamond tip the first time you tried to stab something as hard as carbon steel the diamond would break...

Diamond tipped, as in serrated diamond edging of the claw specifically evolved to cut through armors. Also, you can't "break" a diamond like how you are implying. It is the hardest substance that we know of. The only thing you can do is shatter it along a cleavage plane, (a plane of imperfection in the material), cut it with another diamond, use specialized lasers, or erode it with chemicals. Stop posting false information. Pure diamonds (those without micro imperfections) can only be broken with other diamonds, or specialized machines.

Should I remind you that cars AREN'T armored? The chasis might as well be tinfoil.

The chassis was fiberglass, that is not the impressive part. It took the engine block, (a half a ton of solid steel) ripped it straight out of the truck (connected to the truck by steel parts) and tossed it away like it was a toy. That is just a regular grizzly bear, not a genetically engineered killing machine.

Natural claws and teeth are (materials-wise) rahter shody compared to designed materials.

In general, yes. But not always, spider silk is an excellent example.

Also, diamons aren't natural part of bilogicla growth, so no. You can't be born or develop diamond-tipped claws. Those diamons have to come from outside. Also, just puting a diamond tip is not some magical solution.

This is the 41st milennium, anything is possible. In this universe, there are quasi-deity entities that exist in a realm of pure thought where time and space have no meaning, some humans have psychic powers, and there is a race of warlike sentient fungi that make their technology work through the power of positive thinking. But you really want to say that something evolving diamond tipped claws is "unrealistic"?

I also find it hard to belive genestealers are so strong, vien their thin, spindly arms. SM have generically enganced muscles (designed the God-Emprah! It is heresy to imply that those xeno muscles are more efficient) PLUS power armor.[/Quote]

Superdense musculature. The generstealer literally has 5 times the muscle of a space marine, it is all just compacted into those spindly arms, for increased agility and stealth.

Only if it goes for joints. But your hypothetical guy fighting in armor KNOWS where his weakspots are, and thus his fighting stlye would be one to make them hard to hit.

Genestealers are quite capable of ripping straight through the armor itself, they don't have to go for the joints. This is backed up by the lore in numerous places, and I've tried to give an accurate description of the pseudoscience that justifies it. It really isn't a stretch considering some of the other stuff in warhammer 40k.

Terminator armor doesn't make you invincible. In one of the horus heresy books, a traitor terminator remarked that even something as weak as a lasgun could punch through a joint or a weak spot. For reference, lasguns have comparable damage output to a modern day assault rifle (see Dan Abnett's and Sandy Mitchell's works).

Hell in one of the Ciaphas Cain novels, a few gaunts messed up a suit of tactical armor to the point where it needed repairs before it could be used again.

Edited July 8, 2014 by legit1337

[TrashMan]

In general, yes. But not always, spider silk is an excellent example.

Go stab someone with spider silk then.

This is the 41st milennium, anything is possible.

No, it's not.

I you're reffering to Chaos, it's an alternate plane of existence. They frak up reality.

But not Tyranid. They are 100% biological, which means 100% restricted.

In this universe, there are quasi-deity entities that exist in a realm of pure thought where time and space have no meaning, some humans have psychic powers, and there is a race of warlike sentient fungi that make their technology work through the power of positive thinking. But you really want to say that something evolving diamond tipped claws is "unrealistic"?

Common misconception. The Ork gestalt does not make things that don't work work. It just makes them work better.

In other work, an ork can't just take a branch and if he and his buddies believe strong enough it's a gun, it will fire bullets. No, it has to be a gun. A (relatively) wroking one.

Superdense musculature. The generstealer literally has 5 times the muscle of a space marine, it is all just compacted into those spindly arms, for increased agility and stealth.

Heresy. Space Mariens have super-dense muscles. And there is limit to how dense you can make something b.t.w.

[Kiel]

Oh boy, yesterday I finally saw a zombie made of a poor civilian guy.

And lol, since when local forces use laser weapons? If I switch to MAG (in progress) - they switch to plasma?

[Kiel]

One thing I regret the most about this game: you cannot roll over the reaper with Scimitar tank

[Chthon]

Go stab someone with spider silk then.

Different kind of strength here. Here we're talking about flexibility and tensile strength. I.e. very hard to tear. For something as light weight as it is, if we could figure out how to manufacture it in mass, we could make body armor that could surpass steel plates, light enough that anyone could wear it. It would out perform even Kevlar in stopping bullets.

The problem here is that we know the chemical formula, but not how to actually manufacture it. That still remains a mystery. Milking spiders also takes far too long to be productive. All we know is there is something in a spider's spinning sack that allows the molecule to form in just the right configuration for it to work and we can't replicate it.

[DamianAyre]

Stop posting false information ?...you seriously need to check your ego at the door...

[legit1337]

Stop posting false information ?...you seriously need to check your ego at the door...

EDIT: Rewriting my response into something less rude.

While it is true that diamonds can be shattered along cleavage planes by enough torque, that would not be true in the case we are describing. Only the sharpened tips of the claws are diamond, not the entire claw which would be made of a more durable material. The diamond tips/edges are only to facilitate cutting through hardened alloys, much in the same way a entire drill would not shatter if it had a diamond tip on it.

Saying that a diamond tipped claw would be useless for cutting as the "diamond would just shatter under the force" is blatantly false. We have power saws today that are diamond tipped, precisely for cutting through hard metals.

Go stab someone with spider silk then.

See Chthon's post.

No, it's not.

I you're reffering to Chaos, it's an alternate plane of existence. They frak up reality.

But not Tyranid. They are 100% biological, which means 100% restricted.

Again, you are taking realistic restrictions and applying them unevenly across the factions of warhammer 40k. Chaos daemons get a free reign to ignore the laws of reality. Space marines, imperial guard, eldar, and tau get weapons based on frankly dubious science. But when tyranids evolve diamond tipped claws, "woah woah that is way too far that would never happen, so unrealistic."

I've got news for you, every single animal here on earth uses minerals in basic biological functions, it is more "realistic" that tyranids have diamond tipped claws then any other faction having plasma weaponry, not to mention anything else in the warhammer 40k universe.

Common misconception. The Ork gestalt does not make things that don't work work. It just makes them work better.

Debatable. I can site numerous examples in novels where techpriests have examined ork technology and proclaimed that it shouldn't even be working at all.

You are right in saying that an ork couldn't pick up a tree branch and use it as a gun, but that is because even an ork is smart enough to see that a tree branch is not a gun and thus not enough of them would believe it to be true to make the branch a gun.

Heresy. Space Mariens have super-dense muscles. And there is limit to how dense you can make something b.t.w.

Theoretically yes. But perhaps the human body isn't capable of handing that kind of musculature. Tyranids have evolved through millions of years of directed evolution by the super-intelligent hivemind to overcome these boundaries though. What is undeniable is that a genestealer is stronger than a space marine, even in terminator armor. Again, I can site numerous examples across multiple black library novels.

Edited July 9, 2014 by legit1337

[Max_Caine]

Guys, I appreciate a good debate as much as anyone (and this is a good debate), but please keep to the debate. Cheers!

[TrashMan]

Again, you are taking realistic restrictions and applying them unevenly across the factions of warhammer 40k. Chaos daemons get a free reign to ignore the laws of reality. Space marines, imperial guard, eldar, and tau get weapons based on frankly dubious science. But when tyranids evolve diamond tipped claws, "woah woah that is way too far that would never happen, so unrealistic."

Of course I am. It only makes sense to treat different things differently.

Yes. Tyranids suck.

I've got news for you, every single animal here on earth uses minerals in basic biological functions, it is more "realistic" that tyranids have diamond tipped claws then any other faction having plasma weaponry, not to mention anything else in the warhammer 40k universe.

Natural minerals. Minerals they get from eating plants and stuff.

Not diamonds. Diamonds are not a natural part of anyones diet and are found deep in the earth, created by massive pressure.

So no.

Debatable. I can site numerous examples in novels where techpriests have examined ork technology and proclaimed that it shouldn't even be working at all.

You are right in saying that an ork couldn't pick up a tree branch and use it as a gun, but that is because even an ork is smart enough to see that a tree branch is not a gun and thus not enough of them would believe it to be true to make the branch a gun.

False. The orc gestalt is not as powerful as you think

Theoretically yes. But perhaps the human body isn't capable of handing that kind of musculature. Tyranids have evolved through millions of years of directed evolution by the super-intelligent hivemind to overcome these boundaries though. What is undeniable is that a genestealer is stronger than a space marine, even in terminator armor. Again, I can site numerous examples across multiple black library novels.

I don't care. Half of 40K books are utter garbage anyway and I can find 40K books that say otherwise. Unfortunately when you have so many authors all with their own ideas, you end up with inconcistencies.

You must have missed the point about me not caring if that is canonical or not. I still consider it stupid.

[legit1337]

You must have missed the point about me not caring if that is canonical or not. I still consider it stupid.

It is hard to convince someone if they don't care if they are wrong.

Fine, that is your prerogative. Just don't say that there is no explanation as to why it is canonical. Genestealers aren't able to rip through terminator armor "just because", it is explained by the lore and the pseudoscience of the setting as to why it is possible.