Making the MIG researchable?

[Chris]

Gauddlike basically explained what I was trying to say more coherently. That's what I was driving at. It's "researched" as a result of a change in situation rather than anything else.

KOKON, I don't really know what you're talking about. It takes a lot more than 2 days to get an aircraft designed, painted and put in game, trust me. This entire change doesn't affect the number of interceptors you have at all, there's still a total of 6 interceptors in the game, you just get one a little later than before. But I'm not going to talk about what the later interceptors do. But yes, you can mod in more aircraft relatively easily.

There's no point having more aircraft than there are combat roles for, though. Adding extra stuff is only worthwhile if it actually adds to the gameplay experience.

[anotherdevil]

yeah I'm of the opinion 'less is more,' the original rocked with only 2 dedicated interceptors, so I don't think we need more than Chris' 6...

[Xentax]

I think you're right on track Chris. If construction or research times are a factor, having them "in progress" when the game starts as someone suggested would work. E.g. you could have the 4th Hangar under construction but not set to finish if you want their total construction time to stay meaningful.

As in, Xenonauts know they need a heavy hitter. There's a research project ready to start to find one; in the meantime, base techs are building a place to house the prototype once it's found and obtained.

On a related note, I think you should find something for techs to make off the bat too. Otherwise, since Xenonauts scientists are instant hire/fire, there's no reason NOT to just fire all the techs and hire more scientists until there's something to make. Perhaps make med kits manufactured instead of infinite - after all, some of their kit is unique to treating laser and plasma burns, right?

[Gauddlike]

Or go the other way and not have any engineers until you have something to build, rather than adding something to build just because you have engineers.

It is a little odd that an organisation that doesn't conduct research or manufacturing should have personnel on the books to do those things.

The base structures are easily explained as mothballed facilities but 20 staff with no jobs?

If you really wanted something to build the stun rod is still a good bet.

Don't see many of those around so it would make sense that they build their own.

[Chris]

Hmm, fair point with the manufacturing stuff. It's possible we can make stun rods manufacturable too, but again it might be better to do that after researching an alien corpse? But then I don't think it'd be adding much to the game...

Again, though, the necessity of capturing aliens might be best impressed on people by having the Stun Rod researchable as it's quite a specialist item of kit.

[Gauddlike]

That also makes sense.

Take home a dead alien and the scientists want a live one to play with.

[pack.wolf]

The idea in general is very reasonable, but making the MIG a research item is not the way to go imo. It creates too many problems. Unexperienced players may not research it in time and/or build the planes and/or hangars for them, which would lead to them getting creamed as soon as more powerful UFOs appear.

Instead you could have a 'Russian supply package' incoming that the player gets told about on day one. He'll also be told a hangar has been reserved for the interceptor that will be part of the package. When it arrives after a few days time the research info screen pops up just as if you would have researched it. From this point in time on the player can order MIGs and Avalanches. This way the player learns about the plane without creating any of the mentioned problems.

[Gorlom]

Wouldnt research be able to do the same thing without makeing it blantantly obvious someone thinks everyone playing the game are idiots? Good games disguise the learning curve to look like progression rather then "do this stupid!" It's much more satisfying to do whats intended/correct if it is acctually possible to do wrong rather then have it served on a plate like that.

If everything you could do at the start to not make the crafts in time is identified it can be countered. Make the MiGs intended hanger be in progress when you start is a fairly simple countermeasure.

Makeing the research complete after your first UFO encounters if you start it right away but still before the corvettes start appearing if you begin with another item could work too.

Haveing a tip of the day type of message in addition to everything else. Drop hints in the new baseview screens.

Besides getting it for free like that most players probably wont bother reading the information or understanding the difference between the planes anyway...

Edited March 3, 2012 by Gorlom

[Gauddlike]

Why would you need to have an empty hangar at all?

Give the player 3 f-17s at the start of the game.

They are after all the best craft available so having a full squadron of them makes sense.

They could simply sell one when they want a heavier interceptor or they can build a new hangar.

If they are taking losses due to lacking a heavier interceptor then a hangar will be empty at some point anyway.

The research will be there to give them an idea on what to put in it.

That gives the new player information and options.

It would be easier for them to realise the research was there if a 'New research topic available' type notification is going to be used.

[NoIdidnt]

Why would you need to have an empty hangar at all?

Give the player 3 f-17s at the start of the game.

They are after all the best craft available so having a full squadron of them makes sense.

They could simply sell one when they want a heavier interceptor or they can build a new hangar.

If they are taking losses due to lacking a heavier interceptor then a hangar will be empty at some point anyway.

The research will be there to give them an idea on what to put in it.

That gives the new player information and options.

It would be easier for them to realise the research was there if a 'New research topic available' type notification is going to be used.

+1 to that.

Also to the people that think the base should already have the Mig at the start becouse they should have the best tech. already.

they wouldnt have needed it so far,it is completely useless at the beginning so why would they even have it?

Truth be said it shouldnt even be an option untill radar has spotted its first corvett.

[Belmakor]

You could justify the MiG research as "Review of current aircraft" or such like. Basically we have access to the F17 but we need something better, this research clarifies that the MiG is that aircraft and it is not some other European or US aircraft.

Then what happens is you get a one-time only option to replace one of your two starting F17s with a MiG free of charge. A tit-for-tat exchange with the Russians of technology. After that you are in agreement that you can purchase future MiGs from the Russians. This would remove the need for a 4th hangar which I think will limit needlessly limit player base building options and give potential for 3 aircraft too early. It also makes the transfer smooth as opposed to relying on the player to take the initiative to sell one F-17 and replace it which they might not know how to do.

[NoIdidnt]

by mid august i needed 6 hangers not just 4. lol

and that wasnt really enough but i managed with 6.

im sure when the air combat is more ballanced it will change tho.

when you have to start sending your dropship out with escorts you have to have at leaste 5 hangers or you have to wait for your intercepters to refuel after a battle.

Edited March 4, 2012 by NoIdidnt

[Gauddlike]

This would remove the need for a 4th hangar which I think will limit needlessly limit player base building options and give potential for 3 aircraft too early.

Hangars are much smaller in Xenonauts than in x-com, you will also probably need more of them.

The alien ships also come in waves rather than singly.

An extra interceptor at the beginning could be extremely useful, either to send out singly after small enemies or to fill out the squadron when attacking bigger ones.

Remember that the waves are not yet in game, they are certainly not balanced for the number of starting aircraft you may have.

It also makes the transfer smooth as opposed to relying on the player to take the initiative to sell one F-17 and replace it which they might not know how to do.

Or you could trust the player to work it out, especially if the guidance they need is on the research outcome information screen.

'Relying' on the player to make a decision about their own forces is kind of what the game is about.

They may choose to replace an f-17.

They may choose to build an extra hangar or 3 to hold migs.

They may decide that they don't require a mig just yet and are happy with the f-17s.

That leaves the choice up to them without pointing them towards one that YOU feel is best by offering the exchange.

[NoIdidnt]

My opinion-

in the original x-com i remember several times in the game where things seemed to be going great, ground battles were fairly easy to overcome, air superiority was going well. it would start to get a bit booring.

then the aliens would show up with something totally unexpected, new ground troops/larger faster ships, and it would put me in a bit of a pickle.

Wasnt booring anymore!

then i had to scramble with everything i had to change my equipment and tactics to get a handle on things again.

thats what makes these games great i think.

just becouse the corvett shows up and you dont already have the aircraft to easily beat it in air combat doesnt meen you lose the game!

it meens you better figure out how to beat it, and in a hurry.

having to skip a couple corvett battles while you gain the tech. or buy the mig or whatever is needed in that circumstance will actually bring you deeper into the game. it will also effect your nation rating.

i wouldnt be very happy if this game was totally layed out on a platter for us. it should take some tactical planning, deff. shouldnt be a cake walk. thats what keeps it interesting. make it so we never know whats going to come the next time the sun comes up.

just my 2 cents worth.

[NoIdidnt]

More of my opinion.

start the game with 3 f17s, play until the first corvett is seen by radar."sir! this one is big, never seen anything like this. i dont think our current fighters have the firepower to bring one of these down with any reliability"

pop up a research screen to research not the new tech. of a fighter but to research what fighters available on earth could be best fitted with the biggest weapons to fight them.

could be a 1 day research for 10 scientists, then, after the research is done make the mig available to buy/build. buy would be best.

when the mig gets to the base it has the normal rearming and fueling time in base before it can be used.

first research at the beginning of the game could be extended radar range, wouldnt need to be much. or.

it could be better,more reliable radar penetration.*same range but better chance of detection* and again it wouldnt have to be much of a gain. "sir! we are getting eye witness reports of ufos planetwide but we seem to only get radar pings on aproximately 20% of them"

and i guess this makes my 4 cents worth.

[Acidblood]

Sounds like a great idea, especially if you can work it so that there is something for scientists / technicians to do right from the start as well.

At the moment I just sell the starting F-16 (useless till fighters show up) get a 2nd MIG (as bait) and fire the starting scientists / technicians to save money until I actually need them... so yeah, would be nice to have starting 'resources' that are useful.

[Gorlom]

wait what? you sell the F-17? the aircrafts that can reliably crash scouts to buy aircrafts that destroy them instead?

Are you skipping ground missions?

[NoIdidnt]

Unless im way off sci/tecs dont cost anything until the end of the month or when you hire them. so firing them then rehiring them would cost you more than just keeping them.

the mig isnt good for scouts at all compaired to f17s.

Acidblood, could you be mixing the mig and f17 up? the mig has way to heavy of weapons to use against scouts and to use one mig as a decoy is unthinkable since it has no option to dodge*roll*

out of the way of incoming fire.

or mabye you didnt realise that the scout (if crash landed, not destroyed) leaves a crash site on the geoscape which after the ground battle is finished starts your tech tree.*makes a use for your scientists*

Edited March 8, 2012 by NoIdidnt

[P-DEX]

Here's my opinion/suggestion on the MiG.

Don't have it research-able, but tie it's appearance to the "happiness" level of the Soviet Union.

Consider this: You start the game with three F-17's. Your Xenonauts do their thing for a bit (say, a month or two), and if they are doing well enough the Soviets will finally show willingness to allow use of their MiG-32. The concept is to kinda-sorta go along with the historical bent of the Soviets in that they were very touchy and secretive (paranoid, if you will) when it came to their sharing of their technology. This is the Cold War after all.

Now, how would you properly execute this idea? The obvious would to build your first base somewhere in Russia and start intercepting UFO's, which would be the quickest way of getting the MiG.

However, some people may not want to always put their first base in Russia...so, you could just optionally tie the Soviet "willingness to share the MiG" with simple numbers (take x-number of alien craft, or research progress, or general Xenonaut success wherever your first base may be...or a combination of all three). You could use this method as the Soviet's way of saying "Hey, we're a closed and slightly paranoid nation, but we want in on this alien technology stuff! So, here's a MiG..."

This way, you would have the hangar space ready to go at the outset and wouldn't need to spend time building a new one to house the MiG. Plus, it would be a kind of "reward" for the player if he is doing well at the beginning.

Edited March 10, 2012 by P-DEX

[Gauddlike]

Wouldn't that mean you would have to tie in the Chinook and F-17 as well?

Most of the weapons, and the F-17, have a NATO or North American feel so logically they would also need allocating to a funding block or two.

Not to mention the soldiers with certain nationalities that would possibly have to become unavailable for hiring etc.

[P-DEX]

Wouldn't that mean you would have to tie in the Chinook and F-17 as well?

Most of the weapons, and the F-17, have a NATO or North American feel so logically they would also need allocating to a funding block or two.

Not to mention the soldiers with certain nationalities that would possibly have to become unavailable for hiring etc.

I can see your point. I'll expand on my thinking a bit more to clarify.

I look at it this way. In the very beginning, the Soviets would be willing to help the Xenonaut cause...to a point.

1) Soviet/WARSAW Pact Manpower? Oh yeah, we got lots of that. Plus we, the USSR, want to get involved for our own personal and political gain. So why not take a handful of the Soviet's best and brightest to participate? If nothing else, they can "report back" on what is really going on. Plus, we can show those weak Western democracies the toughness and fortitude of the Soviet Republic and her soldiers!

2) Millions of rubles to fund Xenonauts? A bit harder to swallow, but when you've got UFO's appearing all over the Motherland and the people are becoming restless you are losing a lot of face...you appear to not have control of the situation and that's bad news for a Soviet regime. So, while on the outside you may be projecting the atypical Soviet propaganda of "What UFO's? That's nothing more than NATO spy panes violating our airspace! Don't worry about it! We've got it all under control!" But underneath the table, they are paying a secretive international alien-buster force to hedge their bets.

3) Sharing technologically advanced Soviet hardware? Whoa, that's far enough, Comrade! You've already got some of our precious soldiers and an agreement to fund millions of rubles into an organization that we don't control outright...that should be enough for now. At least until we see some results. Otherwise, we'll do our own thing with our own resources and that includes MiG's!

As far as your comments on the F-17, Chinook, and manpower, I would consider these "Western" (or at least "non-Soviet") so they would be much more willing to share their knowledge, technology, and soldiers.

All I'm saying is that if you have F-17's and Chinook's already (beefed up though they may be) it stands to reason the Soviets would already have the equivalent with the MiG-32. So why spend valuable research time on it when you could spend that time researching something "more spacey"...like laser rifles, for instance.

Of course, if you want to go the research route with the MiG, I'd recommend making it a "quick" research...no more than a couple of weeks. Either way, it's all good to me. I'm just thinking out loud here.

Edited March 10, 2012 by P-DEX
Added clarification

[NoIdidnt]

In my previous post/opinion P-DEX the mig wasnt actually researched, the 1 day research i suggested was into what aircraft were availabe at this time on the planet that could be fitted to be the best heavy weapon aircraft.

the research would find that the mig was that aircraft,then after you buy one and it is delivered to your base it would need to be armed with those weapons seen as the most powerful. so it would also need time to be rearmed after it gets to base.

also the mig needs to become available at or very near the time corvett start showing up, not 2 months in to the war.

cold war erra, yes. nations didnt want to share tech, yes.

but a common overpowering enemy has a tendency to make common beliefe bend a little bit, no matter how riggid it is.

Edited March 10, 2012 by NoIdidnt

[Gauddlike]

I would have thought the US would have been just as reticent to share their technology with an organisation that had anything to do with the communist states as the communists would with the western powers.

Your suggestion would be good if it tied in with the starting base location.

A Soviet base would attract less co-operation from western countries while basing your operation in North America would make the Soviet states take a step back.

I think though that this is adequately represented by the funding system already.

A country may be more likely to allow an external organisation use of one of its fighters than it is to give it monthly funding if they are not seeing as much benefit as its more traditional enemies are.

If they have signed a treaty requiring them to supply equipment as requested they are likely to stick to it unless they see an overwhelming reason not to.

[P-DEX]

A Soviet base would attract less co-operation from western countries while basing your operation in North America would make the Soviet states take a step back.

A good point and most likely true.

Since we are discussing the MiG I was focusing on the Soviet side and their "reasoning" for not deploying it at the start. Since we weren't making the same case for the F-17 I just kinda accepted that there never was an "issue" for deploying them.

In any case, there are good reasons for researching and for having the MiG at the start. Neither would be a game killer. Besides, I'm sure a future modder would make either one or the other possibility feasible at some point.

NoIDidn't probably stated it best...that an alien attack/invasion probably would have the effect of focusing everyone on the bigger picture...even the Soviets.

[Gauddlike]

Yeah I was just expanding on it.

The more ideas people throw in the beter the end product will be.

At the very least it gives us all something to talk over while waiting for new builds