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Can grenades and rockets be a special case when calculating suppression?


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From my experiments in the field, suppression for grenades is worked out in exactly the same manner as it is for guns, which is a problem. It makes weapons like flashbangs pointless because once a grenade is either thrown or scatters outside it's operational range of 10 squares the amount of suppression a flashbang then does drops off very quickly. It is far better to use a weapon like the machinegun which admittedly costs 12 more TUs to use but has a much longer range and is consequently more reliable when causing suppression

Could suppression for grenades and rockets be worked out from point-of-impact rather originating point please?

And if the same modifier for range also applies for other types of damage other than suppression, could those also be applied for point-of-impact rather than originating point as well?

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From my experiments in the field, suppression for grenades is worked out in exactly the same manner as it is for guns, which is a problem. It makes weapons like flashbangs pointless because once a grenade is either thrown or scatters outside it's operational range of 10 squares the amount of suppression a flashbang then does drops off very quickly. It is far better to use a weapon like the machinegun which admittedly costs 12 more TUs to use but has a much longer range and is consequently more reliable when causing suppression

Could suppression for grenades and rockets be worked out from point-of-impact rather originating point please?

And if the same modifier for range also applies for other types of damage other than suppression, could those also be applied for point-of-impact rather than originating point as well?

I second the motion! :D
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I would like to re-suggest something I put in the old suppression thread.

If suppression can be added as another damage type to ammunition then impact based suppression can also be modded in for other weapons or used for special cases, like grenades.

Currently suppression is a set value on the weapon (grenade used as example):

<Weapon name="weapon.grenade.frag" bulletType="grenade" emptySound="Empty Click 1">

<props range="10" hands="1" recoil="0" weight="1" isHeavy="0" clipSize="1" reloadAPCost="0" hpLimit="80"/>

<SingleShot delay="0.85" suppressionValue="20" suppressionRadius="2">

<Set1 ap="20" accuracy="50" />

</SingleShot>

<BurstFire/>

<GUIImage name="gui/weapons/Grenade.png"/>

<GroundImage name="grounditemimages/grenade.png"/>

<Ammos>

<Ammo name="ammo.none" type="kinetic" damage="80" stunDamage="40" mitigation="0">

<Projectile spectre="projectiles/grenade" speed="600" />

<Impact spectre="particles/smallgrenade/small_grenade" radius="2" sound="Weapon Frag Grenade" fireChance="0" smokeChance="50" gasType="GrenadeFragSmoke" />

</Ammo>

</Ammos>

</Weapon>

I proposed that it be added as a second type of damage that is applied on impact.

The existing values for the current system can be left in place but set to zero when using this alternative system:

<Weapon name="weapon.grenade.frag" bulletType="grenade" emptySound="Empty Click 1">

<props range="10" hands="1" recoil="0" weight="1" isHeavy="0" clipSize="1" reloadAPCost="0" hpLimit="80"/>

<SingleShot delay="0.85" suppressionValue="0" suppressionRadius="0">

<Set1 ap="20" accuracy="50" />

</SingleShot>

<BurstFire/>

<GUIImage name="gui/weapons/Grenade.png"/>

<GroundImage name="grounditemimages/grenade.png"/>

<Ammos>

<Ammo name="ammo.none" type="kinetic" damage="80" stunDamage="40" mitigation="0" suppressionValue="20" suppressionRadius="2">

<Projectile spectre="projectiles/grenade" speed="600" />

<Impact spectre="particles/smallgrenade/small_grenade" radius="2" sound="Weapon Frag Grenade" fireChance="0" smokeChance="50" gasType="GrenadeFragSmoke" />

</Ammo>

</Ammos>

</Weapon>

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I would like to re-suggest something I put in the old suppression thread.

If suppression can be added as another damage type to ammunition then impact based suppression can also be modded in for other weapons or used for special cases, like grenades.

Currently suppression is a set value on the weapon (grenade used as example):

<Weapon name="weapon.grenade.frag" bulletType="grenade" emptySound="Empty Click 1">

<props range="10" hands="1" recoil="0" weight="1" isHeavy="0" clipSize="1" reloadAPCost="0" hpLimit="80"/>

<SingleShot delay="0.85" suppressionValue="20" suppressionRadius="2">

<Set1 ap="20" accuracy="50" />

</SingleShot>

<BurstFire/>

<GUIImage name="gui/weapons/Grenade.png"/>

<GroundImage name="grounditemimages/grenade.png"/>

<Ammos>

<Ammo name="ammo.none" type="kinetic" damage="80" stunDamage="40" mitigation="0">

<Projectile spectre="projectiles/grenade" speed="600" />

<Impact spectre="particles/smallgrenade/small_grenade" radius="2" sound="Weapon Frag Grenade" fireChance="0" smokeChance="50" gasType="GrenadeFragSmoke" />

</Ammo>

</Ammos>

</Weapon>

I proposed that it be added as a second type of damage that is applied on impact.

The existing values for the current system can be left in place but set to zero when using this alternative system:

<Weapon name="weapon.grenade.frag" bulletType="grenade" emptySound="Empty Click 1">

<props range="10" hands="1" recoil="0" weight="1" isHeavy="0" clipSize="1" reloadAPCost="0" hpLimit="80"/>

<SingleShot delay="0.85" suppressionValue="0" suppressionRadius="0">

<Set1 ap="20" accuracy="50" />

</SingleShot>

<BurstFire/>

<GUIImage name="gui/weapons/Grenade.png"/>

<GroundImage name="grounditemimages/grenade.png"/>

<Ammos>

<Ammo name="ammo.none" type="kinetic" damage="80" stunDamage="40" mitigation="0" suppressionValue="20" suppressionRadius="2">

<Projectile spectre="projectiles/grenade" speed="600" />

<Impact spectre="particles/smallgrenade/small_grenade" radius="2" sound="Weapon Frag Grenade" fireChance="0" smokeChance="50" gasType="GrenadeFragSmoke" />

</Ammo>

</Ammos>

</Weapon>

That seems like a logical solution. An alternative would be to tie suppression to blast damage somehow. Not as clean or flexible, but still better than the current system IMO.
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My suggestion does technically do that.

It just also allows the damage and radius of suppression to be set individually from the blast radius.

A grenade can do some suppression damage to people who were outside of its damage radius then for example.

You would think a grenade would have MORE suppressive ability than a flashbang. A flashbang is basically a low powered grenade designed not to shred the target.
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I'd think it would work best as a flashbang having less suppression but a much wider area of effect. Basically you'd have to be pretty much standing on the grenade (current radius tiny) and if you survived it, hell you'd be pretty suppressed. Flashbang should hit a much larger area but be constrained by walls. Toss one into the scout and anything with eyes should be having some trouble.

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I'd think it would work best as a flashbang having less suppression but a much wider area of effect. Basically you'd have to be pretty much standing on the grenade (current radius tiny) and if you survived it, hell you'd be pretty suppressed. Flashbang should hit a much larger area but be constrained by walls. Toss one into the scout and anything with eyes should be having some trouble.

IRL, there's really no reason to use flashbangs unless you want to avoid inflicting permanent injury. There's certainly no real world justification for them to have a larger suppresion area than a fragmentation grenade.

Personally, I don't like flashbangs being included in games unless they're there because their non-lethal property is actually useful. However, since we have them, they do need to provide some utility over normal grenades; it just needs to be accepted that it's not going to be a realistic utility.

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My feelings exactly.

I can't really see myself taking flashbangs along if they were just a worse version of a frag that also does no damage.

They would possibly have a role if you had a soldier who had used up his AP just as he got in close to an enemy.

Suppressing them both would be less risky than trying to just frag the enemy.

Frag grenades already have advantages over other weapons, for example ignoring cover.

Boosting their suppression value would make the grenade spam tactic a lot more viable, at least at shorter range.

You could increase the range of flashbangs to make them a better choice at long range though if you wanted to go down that route.

That goes against your other suggestion to reduce grenade throwing ranges Stellar.

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My feelings exactly.

I can't really see myself taking flashbangs along if they were just a worse version of a frag that also does no damage.

They would possibly have a role if you had a soldier who had used up his AP just as he got in close to an enemy.

Suppressing them both would be less risky than trying to just frag the enemy.

Frag grenades already have advantages over other weapons, for example ignoring cover.

Boosting their suppression value would make the grenade spam tactic a lot more viable, at least at shorter range.

You could increase the range of flashbangs to make them a better choice at long range though if you wanted to go down that route.

That goes against your other suggestion to reduce grenade throwing ranges Stellar.

But, aren't both ignoring the real use of flashbangs? Isn't the purpose to allow the capture of "live" aliens? You suppress, you move in (hopefully in relative safety), then you use your stun weapon to capture them. I actually wouldn't have a problem with flashbangs having substantially more range than a standard grenade either, BTW, after all they are lighter (I think.)
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But, aren't both ignoring the real use of flashbangs? Isn't the purpose to allow the capture of "live" aliens? You suppress, you move in (hopefully in relative safety), then you use your stun weapon to capture them. I actually wouldn't have a problem with flashbangs having substantially more range than a standard grenade either, BTW, after all they are lighter (I think.)

Do we have stun weapons? I haven't been following the development all that closely, but I thought there were no melee weapons.

If there are melee or very short range stun weapons, then flashbangs definitely have a role, and there's no reason to try and make them superior to a frag grenade in any respect (although an increase in throwing range, as you suggest, would probably be reasonable). Their advantage is that you don't kill your target but do leave him vulnerable to capture, and if you're upset that a frag grenade is "better", then just use a frag grenade and accept that you may well kill your target.

Edited by Sable Wyvern
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Do we have stun weapons? I haven't been following the development all that closely, but I thought there were no melee weapons.

If there are melee or very short range stun weapons, then flashbangs definitely have a role, and there's no reason to try and make them superior to a frag grenade in any respect (although an increase in throwing range, as you suggest, would probably be reasonable). Their advantage is that you don't kill your target but do leave him vulnerable to capture, and if you're upset that a frag grenade is "better", then just use a frag grenade and accept that you may well kill your target.

I thought we were supposed to get a stun rod. http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/3926-A-nickname?highlight=Stun Edited by StellarRat
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Flashbangs are supposed to have that role stellar but if frags can suppress more and are not likely to kill in a single hit (which may well be the case against tough enemies) then they would be a better choice for me.

In previous games of this type, and I am assuming this one but I could be wrong, stun damage is usually based on their health.

If you hit with a weapon that suppresses and takes down health then stunning them when you get in close will be much easier than suppression alone.

Plus if you fail to stun then you are more likely to be ale to take them out before they can retaliate.

If the flashbang is weaker in its only role then it still has a use but is much more situational.

It already has no effect against drones and Androns.

I prefer it to be the better choice for suppression, that is what it is designed to do after all.

if you're upset that a frag grenade is "better", then just use a frag grenade and accept that you may well kill your target.

I wouldn't say I was upset that frags may be better, I just feel that making a single weapon of any type the best choice in the majority of situations is poor planning.

If you want damage use a frag, if you want suppression use a frag, if you want some smoke use a frag, come up against something that can't be suppressed use a frag etc.

I prefer options.

Otherwise might as well bring back the heavy plasmas.

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Flashbangs are supposed to have that role stellar but if frags can suppress more and are not likely to kill in a single hit (which may well be the case against tough enemies) then they would be a better choice for me.
I see where you're coming from here. I agree with your line of reasoning. I think the flashbangs should have a higher suppression value and you should be able to toss them further than a regular grenade. I'm going to rationalize this by telling myself the "flash" part is blinding enough that it is more effective at disabling someone than a grenade explosion. That might actually be true.

Going to grenade subject #2: Smoke could disable someone, but I have a real issue with a smoke outside a UFO or building being able to disable an alien (or anyone else for that matter) inside said object. The opposite also applies, smoke inside a UFO/building shouldn't "leak" out and disable someone outside. Do the aliens not have airtight space craft or do they open the windows as soon as they land to get some fresh air? As Svidangel pointed out, one only has to toss a few smokers around a UFO and eventually all the aliens INSIDE will pass out. This seems like a design error (bug) at worst OR a very gamey exploit at best. I don't think I'd have a problem with throwing a smoker INTO a UFO and eventually having the aliens pass out (although one would think they'd seal the compartment or put on a space suit.)

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I can see smoke spread being very difficult to stop given the way the game handles objects.

Hopefully there is a plan being executed to alter the way this happens to a slightly more realistic method.

I also feel that smoke designed for cover should not stun anyone in it to any great degree.

They have a function and a use, being an offensive weapon should not be part of that.

Stun gas grenades would be another matter, hopefully they would provide limited cover potential to offset their increased offensive role.

Damage that cannot be hidden from or prevented plus reduced offensive capability to any enemies affected by it feels like too much on a single weapon.

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I wouldn't say I was upset that frags may be better, I just feel that making a single weapon of any type the best choice in the majority of situations is poor planning.

If you want damage use a frag, if you want suppression use a frag, if you want some smoke use a frag, come up against something that can't be suppressed use a frag etc.

I prefer options.

Otherwise might as well bring back the heavy plasmas.

Want the target suppressed and alive, use a flashbang. Flashbangs are non-lethal munition and that is their role in the real world. That's not poor planning, it's just the way it is.

Frags should not be generating meaningful amounts of smoke, and I would definitely not like to see them functioning even as a shoddy substitute for a smoke grenade.

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