Shooting from higher ground

[Skitso]

I've never had any concrete answer to this: how does elevation effect shooting calculations? As Harridans are finaly getting their wings (and are massive bastards if we are to believe Chris), I think it would be nice to know if shooting them from ground level gives me huge penalties to accuracy etc. A loading screen tip of this could be in place.

Edited May 29, 2014 by Skitso

[kabill]

Just did a very quick test. It looks like being higher up than your target gives you a +10% increase on your final accuracy calculation.

For example, I had a solder who had 26% to hit snap shot; 46% normal; and 75% aimed.

Shooting down onto the level below, he had 29% snap shot, 51% normal; and 83% aimed.

[Skitso]

Does shooter get acc penalties for aiming a target that is on higher level? Does it make difference how many levels higher/lower you are relative to your target?

[kabill]

Didn't test those. Can have a quick look though...

[kabill]

... So:

1) There appears to be no defensive bonus for being higher than an opponent.

2) The accuracy bonus increases by 10% per level above the target.

E.g.

Base to hit = 20%

1 level above = 22%

2 levels above = 24%

etc.

[StellarRat]

If I remember correctly that was the original plan, but since no aliens ever used high ground it was never really tested. My other related question would be, if GJ has made Harridans capable of using upper levels will aliens other than Harridans now start using them?

[Skitso]

Pretty low bonuses, I think. I feel there should be a slight defensive bonus in addition to at least 20% bonus per level difference for me to bother moving my units to higher ground.

[kabill]

It's worth considering that it might help avoid cover as well, which none of the above takes into account. But I'd not be unhappy with an increase to the accuracy bonus. (Not particularly concerned about a defense bonus as well, personally, but it's not objectionable).

[Gijs-Jan]

The new patch should include behavior which uses the upper levels for all races. Harridans have special behavior built in due to their unique abilities. I also labored quite a bit to reduce turn times. A typical 8 aliens, 4 civvies mission now has a turn time of 1-3 seconds for me. Mind that those numbers were reported on a pretty beefy machine.

[KevinHann]

A typical 8 aliens, 4 civvies mission now has a turn time of 1-3 seconds for me. Mind that those numbers were reported on a pretty beefy machine.

You, sir, are a magician!

Either that or I hate you for your machine...

[Solver]

Given that the LOS calculation is fairly buggy due to Z-axis stuff, higher floors aren't all that great for shooting over obstacles - in which case, just a 10% increase in accuracy is quite pathetic. Sounds like doubling the bonus would be a good move.

[Chris]

They are only low bonuses because Kabill has used a base value of 20%. If a Harridan is on top of a mesa, they get a 20% hit reduction and a 20% hit bonus. Assuming a 50% hit chance for both parties, it becomes 40% and 60% respectively and that makes the Harridan 50% more likely to score a hit than the Xenonaut.

Double it and a Mesa would make it 30% / 70%...so good luck dealing with Harridans that already have 70 Accuracy and get jetpacks before you do.

[Solver]

Yet your soldiers rarely have the opportunity to go more than one level up on most maps. Though if the 10% defensive bonus does actually exist, I suppose it's much better.

I also foresee using rocket launchers to deal with Harridans

[Chris]

Hmm, interesting thought. Rocket launchers are quite inaccurate. I wonder what happens if they "miss" a target on a higher level...do they just explode in mid-air after "hitting" an empty tile nearby? Or do they not hit anything and therefore not explode? May have to give that a test.

[KevinHann]

They are only low bonuses because Kabill has used a base value of 20%. If a Harridan is on top of a mesa, they get a 20% hit reduction and a 20% hit bonus. Assuming a 50% hit chance for both parties, it becomes 40% and 60% respectively and that makes the Harridan 50% more likely to score a hit than the Xenonaut.

Double it and a Mesa would make it 30% / 70%...so good luck dealing with Harridans that already have 70 Accuracy and get jetpacks before you do.

Although that would genuinely apply in a 1v1 scenario, which isn't likely to occur often enough to truly get the Harridan that kind of advantage. There is also a risk of it becoming a shooting duck for an entire team of Xenonauts even at 40% cth. And that's before triple zoom weapons come in play. Hopefully the LOS advantage counters that well enough.

Good idea to test the rocket launchers btw.

[kabill]

Hmm, interesting thought. Rocket launchers are quite inaccurate. I wonder what happens if they "miss" a target on a higher level...do they just explode in mid-air after "hitting" an empty tile nearby? Or do they not hit anything and therefore not explode? May have to give that a test.

Either the rocket launcher isn't missing (on 45% hits) or its exploding in mid-air.

Also, there's no to-hit penalty for shooting at higher targets being displayed. I get the same to-hit chance as against units on the same level.

[StellarRat]

I'm not 100% convinced that any bonuses/penalties should be applied to shooting to/from higher ground. The main advantage you get from having higher ground is that you can see better and the geometry of cover is more favorable, but that really only matters if you're on a horizontal surface above the enemy and you're presenting a low profile (laying down) or if you're using the crest of a hill as cover like a hull down tank would do. In my mind the only bonus anyone should get is an increase in sight range.

Edited May 29, 2014 by StellarRat

[Solver]

Hmm, interesting thought. Rocket launchers are quite inaccurate. I wonder what happens if they "miss" a target on a higher level...do they just explode in mid-air after "hitting" an empty tile nearby? Or do they not hit anything and therefore not explode? May have to give that a test.

My idea would be that you could aim for whatever terrain the Harridan is flying above and hope that splash damage works upwards as it logically should.

If you're just firing in the air, I would logically expect rockets not to explode unless they actually hit something.

[StellarRat]

My idea would be that you could aim for whatever terrain the Harridan is flying above and hope that splash damage works upwards as it logically should.

If you're just firing in the air, I would logically expect rockets not to explode unless they actually hit something.

How do you know they don't have proximity fuses? Or range settings? Edited May 29, 2014 by StellarRat

[Solver]

Because then they would probably be doing better on the ground, too

[StellarRat]

Because then they would probably be doing better on the ground, too

Maybe, but they really don't miss by that much most of the time if you consider the size of the blast radius.

[Skitso]

there's no to-hit penalty for shooting at higher targets being displayed. I get the same to-hit chance as against units on the same level.

Yeah, I don't think there is a to-hit pentalty in play for shooting a target above you... Is Chris misinformed, did I miss something or is it a new feature not yet in 22.10? Are these numbers moddable, BTW?

[kabill]

The numbers aren't moddable that I've see (if they are, they'll be at the top of config.xml).

[lemm]

Can it be mentioned in a loading screen hint that shooting from the higher ground affects accuracy?

[Chris]

Yeah, seems I'm just misinformed here tbh.