(Proof of Concept) Destructible UFO Hulls!

[Skitso]

Yeah, or could be unpacking issue too. I'll check it tomorrow

[Ragnarok]

I have to seriously question the reasoning why this is not possible in the stock game but must be modded in ?!?

I mean wtf, is this Bethesda or Bioware ?

[Emperor_Zoron]

I do believe the first craft was a landed ship, and it was indeed like that throughout the entire mission.

[Skitso]

Ok, I downloaded and installed this again, and then shot down about dozen or so lightscouts and maybe half of them worked ok, but the rest had no floor close the impact zone (the place where there is fire and smoke)

I checked the UFOfloor-03-01_spectre.xml and HP was set to 0. Also the large floors in ufo_lightscoutfloor folder are HP 0.

Next I'll make a clean install..

[kabill]

Ok, I downloaded and installed this again, and then shot down about dozen or so lightscouts and maybe half of them worked ok, but the rest had no floor close the impact zone (the place where there is fire and smoke)

I checked the UFOfloor-03-01_spectre.xml and HP was set to 0. Also the large floors in ufo_lightscoutfloor folder are HP 0.

Next I'll make a clean install..

Seems like all the files are ok, then. Only other thing I can think of is that I've maybe got a typo in the fie name where the ground tiles go (Like capitalised/not capitalised something?) such that it's using the vanilla floor tiles instead? Although, no, assuming you loaded one of the new light scout maps in the map editor, then it would have been referencing the original spectres instead in that case and you'd have seen non-zero HP values. Hmm, fasting running out of ideas on this.

I do believe the first craft was a landed ship, and it was indeed like that throughout the entire mission.

Cool, in which case it will be fixed in the next version (assuming I don't do it again during a second pass over the UFOs I've done so far!)

I have to seriously question the reasoning why this is not possible in the stock game but must be modded in ?!?

As I've suggested above, I'm not sure the game engine is actually cut out for it, at least not so as to make it look polished and without compromising the UFO aesthetic. So it seems a fair decision to me. (Plus, I've really enjoyed putting this together so far, so - from a very selfish perspective - it's allowed me to get more out of the game!)

[Skitso]

Ok, I just had a clean install (manually deleted game folder) and after 5 tries I got one light scout without floor. Strange.

[kabill]

Out of wonder, are you getting instances of smoke and fire without the issue with the floor? In particular, have you had any instances that run counter to your original example (i.e. sw hull and engine exploded, but UFO floor visible?). If not, it could be an issue with particular submaps, maybe?

(It's all very confusing. I'll make sure I do a test on all of the submaps before I release the next version, so I'll know for certain if it's an issue with the mod generally, or whether something's happening between my computer and other people's installs.)

EDIT: Oh, and thanks again for help with debugging.

[Skitso]

Yeah, I've had exploded power core and working floors too.

[kabill]

Update: I've released a new version. It can be downloaded from a link in the OP.

Change log:

- Did another pass over Light Scouts. These are now 99% complete and there shouldn't be any bugs (at least, I've tried out all of the maps and not had any issues). I might play around with the crash marks, but this is probably a long term thing now.

- Changed chance of smoke and fire to 90% and rebalanced resources and aliens killed on crash accordingly for minimum impact on game balance.

- Increased the rate of dispersal on smoke and fire from the crash to make it less intense.

- Updated using files from 22.8 to ensure compatibility.

- Change to destroyed hull images to make them more noticeable.

- Added in a slight tone difference on the UFO ground outline where the hull segments are. I've only done this for light scouts so far.

[kabill]

Think I've finally encountered that bug:

In this image, the hull segments were fine until I depleted them to the 'damaged' state, after which they disappeared completely:

Inside the UFO, various bits of the floor have seemingly been destroyed.

I'm not sure, but I'm wondering if it has something to do with flammable props (especially grass/corn) which have been overwritten by the UFO. Certainly, I've encountered it twice now and it's both been in instances where there's been a lot of corn/grass around.

[kabill]

Minor information update: I've finished my second pass over Scout ships, although I've not uploaded them as I'm planning on doing Corvettes and Landing Ships over the weekend so I'll upload them all together.

Have fixed some bugs, added in a lighter area on the ground tiles around the hull segments and shifted the forward segment to the side to eliminate a graphical issue and make it more tactically useful.

I've not, however, been able to suss out the ground tile issue identified above (my hypothesis about fire/grass was entirely wrong). But oddly, after happening twice in succession, I've not seen it again in a dozen or so tests of the current submaps. Since it's not gameplay affecting, and since it seems to be completely random (I've had it occur on the same submaps), it may just have to be tolerated as an occasional issue as I'm out of ideas about it. (If anything, it's starting to look simply like a vanilla issue with the power core explosions. It's definitely linked to the power core explosions, anyway, and I can't see anything I'm doing which would cause it to act different to normal sometimes).

QUESTION: Does anyone know if it's possible to mod power core explosions. In particular, I'm interested in reducing the amount of fire they produce, as on the first turn they have what looks like a 80% coverage rate and it's quite easy for aliens to die as a result. I'm fairly confident there's no way to access this, sadly, but I wanted to ask in case anyone's found it stashed away somewhere.

[kabill]

Quick Info Update:

Good news! I solved the UFO-floor-not-showing-bug.

Bad news! It's a vanilla bug and I can't fix it.

Unless there's another issue as well, it's caused by reloading a game during a ground mission. Any tiles affected by a power core explosion after a reload won't display the UFO floor and will show the ground below instead. Sadly, this is beyond my ability to fix.

I guess there's a question to be answered, then: are the smoke and fire effects worth having to endure this problem when reloading? Personally, I'm happy with it, as I tend to play Ironman-style and seldom reload during ground combat. But it's going to be much more noticeable for players who don't play Ironman and who may well encounter it most ground combats (depending on reload frequency, of course!).

(I'm assuming this is an issue that won't be fixed before release, as it's fairly minor in the grand scheme of things and pretty uncommon in the vanilla game as power core explosions don't happen very often.)

[SpikeOnUr6]

Any tiles affected by a power core explosion after a reload won't display the UFO floor and will show the ground below instead.

I find this absolutely ok: the explosion destroys also the UFO floor.

By the way, great work kabill!

[Skitso]

Great job finding the bug! I'm absolutely fine with it as when the game is ready and I play it instead of testing things, I'll never reload during GC.

[kabill]

Update: New version is out. Change log:

v0.3:

- All UFOs up to Landing Ships have now been redrafted. So far as I can tell these are 100% stable and functional. The only issues I've found are those listed above, so hopefully they're basically bug-free.

- Scout maps have been redesigned slightly, moving the previously south-facing hull segment to the south-west instead. This was partly for tactical reasons - where it was before wasn't very useful - but also to eliminate a graphical bug.

- Corvette maps have been redesigned somewhat. They're similar in design to previously but some doors, walls and props have been moved. More significantly, I've reduced the number of hull segments from four to two. This was primarily to eliminate graphical bugs (their current placing is basically the only place I can put them!) but also because the additional segments didn't add very much.

- Landing Ships have been completely redesigned (and now work properly, too!). The interiors have been changed to match the style of the other UFOs as previously the hull breaches weren't very useful. I might still change these maps slightly, as there's a bit which the AI doesn't use very well (you'll know it when you see it, but I don't want to spoiler it in case it works!). Shall have a think and feedback is welcome.

- The edge of UFO ground tiles where the hull breaches are have been lightened so that it is possible to tell where the access points are even if the UFO hull is not displaying.

Next version I'm hoping will be the first full release, with all UFO types covered.

As usual, if you have any feedback or bugs, post them here. Especially looking for feedback on Landing Ships, as I've only done some quick tests and not done any proper missions on them.

PLEASE NOTE: If you've installed this mod before, you will need to go to xenonauts/assets/maps/ufos/crashed/scout and delete all the files with "alternative" in the file name before installing the new version. This is simply because I've changed the file names of those files in the new version for consistency's sake, and they therefore won't get overwritten.

[Skitso]

Kabill, you should maybe inform Chris about the floor issue. I think he might want to get it fixed if it's easy enough.

[kabill]

Yeah, probably worth doing a bug report anyway, just in case.

[kabill]

Turns out that it's actually even less common than I thought. It only seems to happen if you reload the game before you've seen inside the UFO (or possibly if you load a game where you haven't seen inside the UFO that turn, I'm not sure). I've reported it, though.

[kabill]

Warning - long post.

Looking for some thoughts/advice about the last three UFOs. Having had a look at them, they're going to be more complicated than the last lot. Here's a discussion of each:

Cruiser

The Cruiser already has three entryways, one in the centre and one on either 'arm'. This makes additional entryways less useful. This problem is compounded by the relatively small interior which is quite narrow along the two arms which are the only viable places for hull segments in any case. There's some pictures at the end of the post that show a possible place I could put them, but I'm not sure how much they'd add tactically.

Another possibility is to put segments leading into the top dome section from landing on the wings. Equally, I could start experimenting with roof-top breaches and add some going into the arms of the UFO (possibly near where I would otherwise put the ground level breaches).

A third possibility would be to recommission the arm (or even centre) door and turn it into a hull segment instead (or have some of the doors locked like in alien bases). This wouldn't add a lot compared with vanilla, though.

Carrier

Ugh, confession time. I've never actually seen one of these in game before - I knew their dimensions from other mapping work but nothing more. Again, they have three entry points, all of which are towards the bottom end of the ship. Some hull segments could go further up, but since the UFO is split between three levels, this is only giving you marginally better access to what amounts to the 'entry zone' of the UFO. Really, to be especially useful, breaches need to be able to be made further up the craft.

I've posted a picture of one possible place, which allows entry into the second level, at the bottom of the post. I'm not sure where else I'm going to be able to put useful segments, though. The only other available place leads right into the top level, which would probably mean I should relocated the command deck.

Another possibility would be to create some places where you can stand along the side of the upper levels so you could breach through there. Not sure whether I'd be able to make that look good, though. An similar idea would be to have crashed carriers already have hull breaches in upper levels, allowing immediate access to flying-armoured troops.

Battleships

Again, this is the first time I've seen the battleship design. In terms of this mod, it's horrible. The bottom layer is utterly out of bounds - the shape is wrong in just about every way to have breachable segments added. The second level has potential (see picture below), but that's basically it otherwise.

If I can get roof-top breaches to work, though, I could add approaches in the very top of the ship and also on top of the first level for access from above into the ground floor.

Conclusion

More or less, all the above points towards putting hull breaches on levels above ground level. Technical issues aside (UFO roofs work oddly by default, so I'll have to redo them and hope I can make them work how I want them too), there's the gameplay implication that you need flying armour to use hull breaches with later UFOs. Given that you can easily have buzzard armour and may well have Sentinel armour at least by Cruisers, that doesn't see unreasonable. But I thought I'd throw it out there for comments anyway.

Technical issues no longer excluded, I think this mod might be untenable beyond Landing Ships if I can't create a new system for UFO roofs. My major concern is ensuring that aliens can't shoot through them (which when I was trialling rooftop approaches a few weeks ago was a bit of an issue, although what I'd put together was very rough so it might have been user error. But if I can solve that, I hopefully should be able to do something.

All that said, if anyone's got any thoughts or comments I'll gladly hear them. As I've said above, I've not played Carrier or Battleship maps before, so I don't know what they're like to play. People with experience on those maps might have some especially useful input, therefore.

Pictures

Cruiser 1

Cruiser 2

Carrier

Battleship

Edited May 18, 2014 by kabill

[Max_Caine]

I've done a lot of Carrier breaches so I can tell you a little secret - the Carrier Boss is on the middle level, rather than the top, which means the most valuable breaching points on the Carrier would be just on top of the teleporter at the front of the top level, and the front of the Carrier on the second level, letting a canny player bypass the entire ship to get at the Boss.

EDIT: Bugger, pressed reply too soon. TBH, the Cruiser is set up in such a way as to make hull breaches irrelvant. You can get access to almost all the rooms in the bottom part almost instantly because of the three doors. The only value you'd get from hull breaches would be the roof.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Max_Caine

[kabill]

Thanks, Max. That's definitely the impression I got from looking at it, but it's good to know it plays out in practice too. The thing about the alien commander is odd, though - in the submap the command room is indicated as being on the top floor. I wonder what the commander's doing elsewhere?

In other news, rooftop breaches might be a bust. It turns out the one thing that I didn't check when I prototyped it previously was whether destroying the ground on higher levels of elevation actually clears the tile. Sadly, it doesn't: the image goes, but the game still treats it as being there, so you can't move or shoot through. I've posted a bug report about it, because many of the vanilla building submaps have roofs which seem like they've been set up to be able to be destroyed. But it might just be an unimplemented feature or something.

On the other hand, I might be able to get away with putting hull segments in the side of UFOs like the Carrier even without something to land on. There's no gravity in the game, so if you drop an item while flying it will stay in the air. Furthermore, it doesn't seem to display the images. This means you could drop breaching charges in the air next to a hull segment and it shouldn't even look odd. So this might be an effective work around.

[Max_Caine]

Okay, confession time, the last time I successfully breached a carrier was back in v21 stable. The changes have been coming too thick and fast to get past landing ships, and I did notice new corvette and landingship submaps in ex7, so it's entirely possible that the command room have changed.

EDIT: Wasn't Chris going on about having introduced command tiles on different UFO submaps so there's a welcoming party in different portions of each UFO?

[kabill]

There was definately some kind of change UFOs and command rooms fairly recently. I can't remember exactly what, though. From what I can tell, all UFOs beyond the light scout have had a command room area, but I don't know whether it was being used effectively. And yes, they've added in alternative UFO interiors for each type of UFO. There didn't seem to be an announcement about that, but they look pretty cool (at least they did before I started chopping them up!).

--

Back on the subject of rooftop breaches, I might have thought of a workaround.

In theory, I could leave gaps in the UFO roof and put a LoS and movement-blocking prop underneath the gap. That should avoid being able to move and see through the gap, while allowing it to be destroyed by breaching charges from above to allow access.

There are, however, two problems. The first issue is that since these props are placed in the UFO interior, they'll restrict movement and LoS for units just in the interior (i.e. it will function like a wall). I could deal with this in two ways. Firstly, I could make the props below where the gaps are a feature of the UFOs in some manner (a support column or something, although it seems silly that you'd breach a UFO where it's likely to be at its strongest!). Secondly, if I put the roof-approaches along the edge of a UFO, I could basically just replace wall tiles with the prop instead. This would make the roof-breaches seamless, but will more-or-less preclude being able to drop into the middle of a room.

The second issue is that since there will be no floor tile on the roof, soldiers will have to 'fly' to move onto the space where the breach will be. This doesn't affect gameplay, but will look a bit odd since there's strictly speaking no reason to fly until the breach is made.

Again, the question is: are these problems (especially the second one) reasonable in exchange for being able to breach through the roof of a UFO?

[Skitso]

Would it be possible to mod ufos's to have a roof? It would be cool to be able to switch ufo hull graphics on/off with the roof toggle button...

[kabill]

You could do that, but it wouldn't work with this mod.

It's actually be fairly easy to do: you'd just place the UFO hull spectre on level 1 rather than level 0 and realign it so that the image sits in the right place. That way, if you had only level 0 displaying, you'd get the UFO shadow and interior displaying. If you display above level 0, it would show the hull. If you had the 'show roof' toggle on, it should display the UFO hull when you're on level 0, since it will be drawing higher levels too.

However, it would be incompatable with the existing system, since the game determines whether it removes an image based on whether that image's spectre overlaps a tile marked as a UFO wall. Since that wouldn't be the case, the game wouldn't remove the image when you can see inside the UFO. I assume that's fine since you seem to want manual control over the hull image, but it's worth noting that you can't have both systems active at the same time or swawp between them.

For this mod, however, it wouldn't be suitable as the hull segments must be placed on the correct level (as they're used to block LoS). As such, if you toggled off the display roof button you'd still have hull segments floating around unless you can also see inside the UFO.

So it's possible, but it would have to be in a different mod.