Ground Combat Balance Discussion Build V21 Experimental 4!

[Gauddlike]

I wish I hadn't deleted that post now. Le sigh.

I restored the post for you.

[KateMicucci]

The situation with Jackal has gotten much worse because the AI gets plasma rifles much sooner in the game now. It's nearly useless against those.

What is "useless"? To me, if Jackal allows a soldier to often survive otherwise lethal hits, it's doing its job fine.

Maybe Wolf is too powerful, or comes too early. It lets soldiers practically wade into enemy fire without real fear of death.

[ventuswings]

Speaking of alien accuracy, does alien AI take into account the shield protection angle (ie. walking around the shield-bearers back, or at least few steps to the side, to prevent 100% block)? Otherwise, greater volume of fire is always the better choice - remember there is armour degradation to think of as well.

Edit: I also concur with KateMicucci's statement that other tiers of armour are just too strong, rather than Jackal being underpowered. Jackal simply reduces the likelihood of Xenonaut being one-shot by plasma rifle, which is armour role I prefer over guaranteed ~3 hit survival. The built armour can be used for rest of the game as well, instead of being lost upon death as is in Original XCOM.

I second that Wolf armour should come later (or be slightly weakened). Wolf just arrive too early after Jackal, and encourage player to make comparisons.

Edited February 14, 2014 by ventuswings

[legit1337]

@chris

Thanks for clarifying that burst accuracy was indeed buffed.

Looking at the discussion that has been going on, I think I understand what these guys are saying and it is worth looking into IMO.

Probability is multiplicative, not additive.

IRL soldiers don't use burst mode on their assault rifles outside of 150m or they won't hit anything. The reason they have it however is so that in close/midrange firefights they have a little extra firepower. Burst SHOULD be better then an aimed shot at close/midrange, 3 fairly accurate shots is almost always better then 1 accurate shot in a midrange firefight due to supression and killing potential. (There is a reason most close range firefights IRL devolve into emptying magazines in the general direction of the enemy instead of sniper duels).

The only time you should use single shot in a close/midrange firefight is if you are conserving ammo. But at longer ranges (out to yellow tiles) aimed shots should be better because accuracy is a premium at that distance.

Edited February 14, 2014 by legit1337

[ventuswings]

Just wanted to bring up few ideas I had for preventing shield spam, since I saw devs were looking for ways to curtail it on Announcement thread:

* Have hand <-> backpack switch for shield cost lot of TUs

Severely limits utilizing dual shield or shield with two handed weapon (via switching held item appropriately)

* Have shield only available via manufacture

Discourages shield spam, and have player make a decision when it comes to low HP shield; does Xenonaut put away the shield to prevent it from being destroyed, or still keep it for guaranteed block of one shot?

Edited February 14, 2014 by ventuswings

[Max_Caine]

On Wolf Armour

I'd disagree that Wolf armour is "too powerful". Consider the environment Wolf armour is going into. You start with plasma rifles which have a damage of 65 and a mitigation of 20. Wolf armour blocks 45pts which drops that (unmodified) down to 20pts of damage. That's (in general) a third to a quarter of HP - Wolf armour seems the business, right? But then Corvettes roll around and the support classes start rocking heavy plasma. Heavy plasma ups the game severely with a damage of 80 and a mitigation of 30. Wolf armour will block 35 pts of that, so (unmodified), that's 45pts, which is over half to two thirds of HP, and you can't heal enough back to take another hit. Landing ships arrive and from there on in, all Androns tote are either heavy plasma or assault plasma. Assault plasma fires three pellets per shot, each of which do 50pts and have a mitigation of 30. 15pts per pellets doesn't sound too bad, right up to the point where they burst fire and you're in a world of pain. Sniper rifles, in the form of Harridans and Caesan sniper start appearing Corvette-Landship as well. They do 40pts of damage which doesn't seem much, but they have a mitigation of 99, so Wolf armour is worthless.

In summary, Wolf armour seems the buisness when first introduced, and it is but the aliens then up their game come the mids and the board is steadily reset until you roll around to Predator (just in time for Plasma Cannons to start appearing).

Edited February 14, 2014 by Max_Caine

[Ol' Stinky]

Just wanted to bring up few ideas I had for preventing shield spam, since I saw devs were looking for ways to curtail it on Announcement thread:

* Have hand <-> backpack switch for shield cost lot of TUs

Severely limits utilizing dual shield or shield with two handed weapon (via switching held item appropriately)

* Have shield only available via manufacture

Discourages shield spam, and have player make a decision when it comes to low HP shield; does Xenonaut put away the shield to prevent it from being destroyed, or still keep it for guaranteed block of one shot?

I dunno about manufactured shields. It doesn't discourage shield spam because I'll pump out as many as I can between interceptors. Unless making shields costs money, of course, in which case I won't make shields at all.

[StellarRat]

On Wolf Armour

I'd disagree that Wolf armour is "too powerful".

I agree with Max's disagreement. It's not too powerful by any means. I still frequently get guys one bursted with Wolf on. Once the aliens start using rifles and heavy plasma it's essential to survival, but it still isn't close to foolproof. Also, all the armors become less effective as they take hits.

[Max_Caine]

On alien sniper rifles

I don't have a problem with alien sniper rifles making a mockery of armour, but 40pts seems a little excessive. 50% up on that is 60HP, which one-shots guys in predator armour. Could the base damage be dropped a wee bit? Perhaps down to 30?

[ventuswings]

On alien sniper rifles

I don't have a problem with alien sniper rifles making a mockery of armour, but 40pts seems a little excessive. 50% up on that is 60HP, which one-shots guys in predator armour. Could the base damage be dropped a wee bit? Perhaps down to 30?

Are you sure? Maybe it's because I like high HP guys (and with roll of 40-70, >60 HP people are easy to recruit), but by the time sniper rifle rolls around most of your squad should be above 60 HP. Sniper rifle could one shot people around ~50HP range I guess, but even that would require a considerable lucky roll. And there's always possibility for 50% (not 150%) damage roll as well.

Considering all that, rolling the sniper rifle damage to 30 would make it a joke, as it would take 3 shots to kill >60 HP Xenonauts. Perhaps such low damage output would be acceptable had the weapon on discussion been a low TU, burst weapon but it's alien sniper rifles capable of firing one (accurate) shot per turn.

Also you're using an extreme outlier, the worst case scenario - sniper hitting Predator Xenonauts who has <60 HP for full 150% damage roll - to make your argument instead of what would usually happen, when lowering damage output will lead to significantly lower lethality on all other Xenonauts. To put it into perspective, it will take alien sniper 3 shots to kill unarmoured Xenonaut which is very low lethality for the scenario that's much more likely to happen than the one you bring up. There has been some prior discussion about Predator armour being too strong, so maybe it's a good thing there exists a weapon that counter over-reliance on armour instead of cover.

Edited February 14, 2014 by ventuswings
spell fixes

[KateMicucci]

After doing a few test battles I think you might be right that Jackal is too weak now. The fact that soldiers who survive hits are pretty much always knocked out really hurts.

I'd like to see one of the following:

1. Slight increase to armor mitigation

2. Significant reduction in weight (9kg more than pajamas is too much now that it really isn't helping much)

3. (Maybe) Make Jackal available in unlimited quantities after it is researched

[ventuswings]

Does armour protect against stun damage? Boost them up slightly if so, I guess. Haven't seen it occur too much on my end. Otherwise (if there is no specific stun protection value) I'd still argue that all buff Jackal needs is slight weight decrease and nothing more.

I dunno about manufactured shields. It doesn't discourage shield spam because I'll pump out as many as I can between interceptors. Unless making shields costs money, of course, in which case I won't make shields at all.

At current state of the shield, I'm sure some people will still use them with the right value ($5000~$10000?). They confer excellent survivability. It's like 80+ reliable free health. That's as good as wolf armour.

Edited February 15, 2014 by ventuswings

[jeon]

Armor protects against damage, stun, and suppression. Only regular damage reduces the armor values. Jackal could use being 4kg lighter with half the cost and time to manufacture.

If shields were made to cost money/time to replace, I would replace my shield guys with smoke grenade spam guys.

With the current trends of lethality and reduced alien numbers, there comes a point where the safest strategy may well be to run around with guys who are unarmored and only carry smoke grenades, C4, flashbangs, and gas grenades... and a pistol only for reactions modifier.

[Max_Caine]

I've experimented with boosting the armour value of Jackal from 35 to 40. A smallish change, but that seems to put Jackal armour in the "impact armour" category, as in "5HP left but you're not dead" category.

[KateMicucci]

The accuracy of the armored car's MG needs to be boosted to stay in line with regular MGs. (I increased MG accuracy to 60, as I assume it was intended. It feels like they're balanced well against other weapons like that.)

Scatter laser needs more than 15 ammo. Sure the ammo is lighter, but that's only 3 shots.

At current state of the shield, I'm sure some people will still use them with the right value ($5000~$10000?).

I don't care how much they cost. Manufacturing shields is annoying. Bumping up the weight to 6kg is already enough to keep me from giving my troops a spare. I'd actually rather have the shield upgrade replace your current shields for free than have to manufacture those too.

[Max_Caine]

Where's the happy medium for stun gas? I researched stun weapons, kitted out everyone with 2 stun gas grenades and then I found that knocking out Caesans and Sebbies with gas was a more hassle and risk free prospect than shooting them. Previously stun gas has been crappy. Now I've found them to be better than shooting. Would making stun gas a manufacturable item help balance their effectiveness? I'm having difficulty seeing the point where stun gas is a useful tool, rather than being OP or UP.

[KateMicucci]

I researched stun weapons, kitted out everyone with 2 stun gas grenades and then I found that knocking out Caesans and Sebbies with gas was a more hassle and risk free prospect than shooting them.

In any situation like that, a regular grenade would work just as well. And the regular grenade is more reliable. Stun gas is fine.

Stun gas starts to get really bad against higher-ranked enemies. Also, it's 100% useless against Androns and drones.

Edited February 15, 2014 by KateMicucci

[Max_Caine]

Well.. if it's a question of reliability, if I fling a stun gas grenade I surround my target with a cloud 4-5 tiles wide. Every tile the baddie walks through he gets hit for 40 stun which will top him very quickly... ah.. I think I've seen an issue that I should bring to GJ's attention. S'cuse me.

[KateMicucci]

Unreliable because the aliens often choose to sit still instead of run through the gas, and high ranked aliens can run through a bunch of it and be fine.

[Max_Caine]

That's not my experience of Sebillians. I throw a stun gas grenade, they see me then start choking on the gas as they walk through every tile to get at me.

EDIT: But... Caesans do stay where they are. So I should shut up now.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Max_Caine

[Max_Caine]

On Scout cars

Double post, but a different topic. So, I followed KM's lead and boosted the accuracy of the Scout car MG to 60. Wow. I'm now getting 3 out of 5 hits regularly, which mutilates Sebbie or Caesan guards. Perhaps it's a little too effective - I feel like I can keep the MG and not upgrade to rocket pods. But we'll see.

[jeon]

Stun gas is easy to balance vs. higher rank aliens, just give them chemical armor to compensate.

[Chris]

OK, I was ill on Friday so I've been catching up with this thread now. Thanks for the maths lesson, all. It's important we're all working with the same assumptions before we analyse the performance of the various weapons. Perhaps the more normal / aimed shots need increased accuracy, particularly as the aliens are receiving a 15 point accuracy penalty across the board. StellarRat, bear in mind that accuracy over 100% is rarely wasted because the aliens themselves don't have 100 accuracy and the two are multiplied.

For combat shields, I don't want to make them manufactured. The way to balance them is to physically prevent the player carrying too many of them into battle, through inventory space or weight (or a combination of the two). Making them harder or more expensive just adds more busywork to the game, which isn't a good idea.

Jackal armour is already cheap and quick to manufacture, and doesn't require alien materials. I'm not keen to change any of those things. Again, alien weapons only do 80% damage on the Normal mode, so it depends what we're trying to balance the game for really. Perhaps it needs a slight stat boost, but I'm not willing to entertain much shift really - Jackal armour should give you only average chances of survival where you would otherwise die compared to unarmoured troops on Veteran. Skipping it should be a valid choice, if you're willing to take a few extra soldier deaths instead.

[StellarRat]

OK, I was ill on Friday so I've been catching up with this thread now. Thanks for the maths lesson, all. It's important we're all working with the same assumptions before we analyse the performance of the various weapons. Perhaps the more normal / aimed shots need increased accuracy, particularly as the aliens are receiving a 15 point accuracy penalty across the board. StellarRat, bear in mind that accuracy over 100% is rarely wasted because the aliens themselves don't have 100 accuracy and the two are multiplied.

.

That's good to know Chris. At some point I hope you can provide the complete formulas that are used to calculate accuracy. The Wiki ones are completely out of date.

As to the aimed shot vs. other types: I'm thinking that reducing the accuracy of the other types might be a better solution. The combat is already very deadly and giving everyone an even more accurate shot isn't going to help that. My experience with shooting is that quick shots rarely hit what you're aiming for except at close range. You're normal and aimed shots should be MUCH more accurate than a snapshot or burst. Burst fire should be as accurate a snapshot, but since you don't model recoil from succeeding rounds throw off the aim you'll have to do the math to figure how to make the average accuracy of burst fire no greater than a snapshot (or even a little less if you think that's better.) IMO, burst should be good for suppression and really deadly at very close range, but other than that it should be no better than a snapshot EXCEPT in weapons that are only designed for burst fire, like the LMG and Scatter Laser.

Edited February 17, 2014 by StellarRat

[Chris]

I don't really see the need to lower the accuracy of the weapons, given we're reducing the accuracy of the aliens themselves. A 15 point accuracy decrease is a 20-30% accuracy decrease for most of them.