Refueling

[jtgribs]

I recently ran into the problem of having a terror mission spawn beyond the range of my chopper.

I had a small outpost with a hangar but no living quarters. I was hoping that my chopper would be able to fly to the base, stop for fuel, then continue to the terror mission, but if that's possible I didn't see any way to make it happen. As far as I can tell I would have needed living quarters and I would have had to transfer my troops and chopper there in order to extend the range.

I'd love it if small refueling posts could be established around the globe to extend the fighting range of my troops, particularly early on when I don't have the resources to construct fully armed and staffed bases all over.

[Wintermist]

It's an interesting thought, that you could land a craft in any available hangar and have it refuel and rearm. But at the same time it would change the whole balance of the game too. I'm not saying it couldn't work, in fact I like the idea, but I'm thinking it wuild require a whole lot of changes to make it a viable option and not a "one base to rule them all" scenario.

[GizmoGomez]

From what I remember, this isn't possible for some reason.

I know, not the most helpful, or descriptive post.

[Sathra]

Not likely to happen, since adding it would cause an immense number of bugs when the current phase is polishing.

Maybe in a sequel!

[thothkins]

yeah, I don't think not being able to get to crash/ terror sites was perceived as being as much of an issue as it turned out. It's just that they always seemed to be just beyond the chinook range that bothered me .

[Sathra]

You could try increasing the range of the chinook? aircrafts.xml under Range (its 35k in vanilla). See if you can find a sweet spot.

[CellNav]

It's an interesting thought, that you could land a craft in any available hangar and have it refuel and rearm. But at the same time it would change the whole balance of the game too. I'm not saying it couldn't work, in fact I like the idea, but I'm thinking it wuild require a whole lot of changes to make it a viable option and not a "one base to rule them all" scenario.

It might work by simply adding a "Refuel" option when the transport reaches it's target. If we select a friendly city as a target, the transport arrives at the target and instead of selecting "Patrol" we select "Refuel". The aircraft orbits (like a patrol) but it burns fuel positively instead of negatively.

In game, a Chinook burns approximately 1% of gas every 2.5 hours ... The refueling option would add 1% every minute.

BTW ... The best way to determine if a Chinook can reach the target in the first place is by looking at the ETA ... Don't send the Chinook if the ETA is > 19:26 (19 hours, 26 minutes) ... That's calculated on the 35k distance at 900kph / 2 (round trip).

[Goetikmagus]

As hard as it is for me to say so: This is the challenge of protecting the globe. You need to have multiple teams in multiple bases to cover the entire Big Blue Marble. Really. That's just the way it ~would~ be in reality.

On that note, one would think that basic base creation would be less expensive, given support from superpowers - or income from successful missions would be higher, allowing the XNs to expand as they saw fit.

If there's one thing I don't really appreciate, it's that one can no longer really produce something that has a mark-up resale value. I once played a game of X-Com whereas most of the world powers were falling apart, despite my best efforts. Financial backing dropped, due to alien incursion, but there were enough concerned citizens that wanted to shell out money for my market-priced laser pistols (presumably for self-defense) that they funded my final assault on the alien homeworld. I won, because I sold.

I mean - hell - my expensive engineers weren't doing anything, anyway... and I consider the final product to be of higher market value than the raw materials... and every dime goes towards a good cause (protecting the Earth)... and as far as game balance goes, I've never met an X-Com player ~yet~ who has said to me: "I'm so filthy rich! What the heck am I going to do with all this cash?!?"... I don't see why a micro-factory which caters to those needing advanced weapons to protect their families shouldn't garner a little financial support. The game balance wouldn't be upset. Players wouldn't be buying luxury mansions and yachts for their XNs. They'd be building and supporting bases and staff.

OK... let me catch my breath, and then I'll rant some more on another thread.

[ThunderGr]

...I've never met an X-Com player ~yet~ who has said to me: "I'm so filthy rich! What the heck am I going to do with all this cash?!?"... I don't see why a micro-factory which caters to those needing advanced weapons to protect their families shouldn't garner a little financial support. The game balance wouldn't be upset. Players wouldn't be buying luxury mansions and yachts for their XNs. They'd be building and supporting bases and staff.

Well, ehm...that gauss pistol in TFTD(and the Gauss Cannon) had a *really* good profit. I actually had lots of money in surplus and all my 8 bases equipped to the teeth having latest tech equipment, max personnel, crafts, etc. Before reaching that point though, it was a challenge to keep up financially.

Before I express any opinions about the strategic part of the game(a sector of which is economy) I will wait to be worked by the developers. It has been stated many times that the Geoscape-related part of the game is just functional, it has hardly been given any attention, yet.

[CellNav]

I've always thought why funding is even considered when the world is attacked by ET ... A good lend-lease program would help ... When we save the world we can quibble over the cost later.

[Goetikmagus]

I'm not talking TFTD, or the original X-Com - I'm talking about this game - where you simply can't produce anything that makes a profit, anymore.

For a player that really counts economy into their game, I look at the current situation with a great amount of frustration. The only way to "retain liquidity" here is to go forth and kick butt - and rarely even on the lower difficulties do you ever have enough to maintain a second base in the early game.

There is no decision-making process about it ("Do I produce equipment that I need for missions, or do I produce equipment that I need to stay afloat and/or expand?") - you get what you get, which cascades down into the idea that initial base placement is going to be refined down into a concern of how many superpowers you can service... which cascades further into the idea that placing your home base anywhere but the optimum starting spot is a bad move, and all of a sudden, you're stuck building in the Middle East, so you can hit up as many countries for support as possible, and if you build in America or someplace remote, you're stupid and you've already lost.

That isn't a decision-making process. That's just plain game mechanics which tie up your initial decisions. Want to start in Antarctica? You're not going to win. Want to start in Hawaii? You're not going to win. Polynesia? Ditto.

I'm talking about a system whereas you can make a questionable, unpredictable initial choice, and still pull through because you can master your economy well enough that you can throw out a second base relatively early. Sure, they can't produce anything or help with research, but they can still move out and shoot aliens.

[ThunderGr]

I've always thought why funding is even considered when the world is attacked by ET ... A good lend-lease program would help ... When we save the world we can quibble over the cost later.

It is as inexplicable as the fact that there is no peace between humans in the world. The governments consider the alien as another "player" in the large picture and they consider cooperation with them if this would give them some advantage over their earthen rivals. Maybe you and me see the Aliens as a threat towards the Earth as a whole but the governments of the nations do not do the same. They would first be at eachothers throats before they decide to deal with the aliens cooperatively. History has proven that countless of times(See Scotland(conquered by the English because the various lords would rather get the benefits from England than cooperate with the others to defend from it, despite of England being a threat to the whole land), Byzantium(when conquered by the Ottomans the west preferred not to help, despite the fact that the ottomans were a common enemy and threatened all Europe), Greece(when conquered by Rome) and many many other examples where the governors of a country would prefer letting the whole land be conquered than cooperate with their rivals against a common threat).

[ThunderGr]

I'm not talking TFTD, or the original X-Com - I'm talking about this game - where you simply can't produce anything that makes a profit, anymore.

You did mention X-COM and I quoted the part of it in my post.

For a player that really counts economy into their game, I look at the current situation with a great amount of frustration. The only way to "retain liquidity" here is to go forth and kick butt - and rarely even on the lower difficulties do you ever have enough to maintain a second base in the early game.

As I said in my previous post, strategic development is nonexistent, yet. We can comment on it when it is worked. We all know there is a lot of things to do concerning Economy and the other aspects of strategic play.

[thothkins]

The governments consider the alien as another "player" in the large picture and they consider cooperation with them if this would give them some advantage over their earthen rivals. Maybe you and me see the Aliens as a threat towards the Earth as a whole but the governments of the nations do not do the same. They would first be at eachothers throats before they decide to deal with the aliens cooperatively. History has proven that countless of times(See Scotland(conquered by the English because the various lords would rather get the benefits from England than cooperate with the others to defend from it, despite of England being a threat to the whole land), Byzantium(when conquered by the Ottomans the west preferred not to help, despite the fact that the ottomans were a common enemy and threatened all Europe), Greece(when conquered by Rome) and many many other examples where the governors of a country would prefer letting the whole land be conquered than cooperate with their rivals against a common threat).

All of which pretty much forms the heart of this post

[Sathra]

I've tried addressing some of your concerns in my mod Goetikmagus. You get more money from missions (due to alien weapons being worth a bit more + more aliens), bases are cheaper, and you can build 1 item for a reasonable profit, but it uses up valuable and limited resources. Alien power unit (3 different kinds) + alenium, or alenium + alloys.

Making them from the alien power units provides more of a profit, and you just get TONS of alenium.

[Darth Draken]

Laser sniper rifle..... Thats all i am saying if you play the steam build..

[goodoldxelos]

I was playing the other day and was thoroughly pissed when my team could not make it to a terror mission resulting in destruction of the city. The standard skyranger was not limited I assumed incorrectly that the standard dropship could make it. After reading this I didn't figure selling alien alloys and alenium would garner so much cash. So either make it explicit that the helo cannot make it to the opposite side of planet and back or ensure players sell their alloys/alenium for cash to create other bases.

[RavenX]

I've had a couple of terror missions spawn out of range on me. I also had hoped that if we had a base in between with the resources there shouldn't be a problem with landing there long enough to refuel. I would expect the base would however at least need a Living Quarters, Hangar, and Storage (it has to keep the fuel and ammo somewhere). I was actually thinking I was doing some pre-planning there, already knowing I couldn't afford to have a second base up by then. Hmm...

If it isn't possible to do that and it is possible for such a important mission as a terror mission to spawn out of range then I'd say that's an over-sight in design planning. Either the missions should be restricted to never spawn out of range (because spawning out of range would be a automatic loss), or the ability to land unexpectedly at another of your bases needs to be implemented so you can reach your mission target.

[thothkins]

I thought the realisation that you couldn't get to all the missions, without having multiple bases was part of the design planning.

If your base in in the Med, and you're intercepting aliens all around Europe, middle east and north Africa without a hitch, then any sensible alien will start targeting elsewhere. That pushes the player to build other bases. That would seem to be desirable game play to me.

I've not been a huge fan of the Duracell Chinook really

[ZiggyHasHeavyPlasma]

I've also hit the Chinook range limit issue several times. Without the Skyranger's massive range, we need a tactically sound alternative. I like the idea of refueling at my other bases.

Further, refueling and re-arming an attack aircraft or Chinook should not take 3-4 hours in game.

It's something that really bugged me from the first X-Com series. I can understand it maybe taking a few hours shifting a load of elerium, as it was a radioactive element, for later craft, but for conventional aircraft and armaments? Make re-arm and refuel an hour, maximum.