Massive air combat difficulty spike

[thothkins]

The look of disgust from everyone at the Xeno-base for forcing them to take on the Corvette for no reward, should make you a more hardened commander. Which is good for everyone on Earth in the end.

[Nickboom]

I resently played xcom (old) and its air combat was reasonibly balanced all size craft appeared from the start and the small ones never really went away until you did amazing at the game then they sent in the bigger stuff. But with this one its like tiered on a monthly basis; Month one: Small Scouts and Scouts Month two: Scouts in the beginning then fighters and bombers for the rest of the year

[thothkins]

If you consider being in the alien HQ. There's Boss alien, shouting at his own techies for their utter failure for taking atmospheric effects into account when trying to take over the planet. So they agree a roll out programme for the fleet.

Month one: Small Scouts and Scouts Month two: Scouts in the beginning then fighters and bombers for the rest of the year

[Jupsto]

Getting very fustrated with sinking hours into a campaign, getting through multiple ground ops by the skin of my teeth only to be faced with such a air difficulty jump, my only option is to start all over.

Im still learning things (just found out there are flares whoop), but seriously was only 3rd month (november) and had NO small ships, only x3 heavy fighters, and large ships. my x3 condor with laser and alenium got raped. I guess I should get x3 foxtrot for the big ships, but with fighter squadrons and escorts in november wtf can you do but stay in your base.

I play veteran and even my first go at this game when I had no clue how to do basics, ground combat was pretty doable. but if air combat is too hard it makes the entire game unplayble. scout ships need to be constant for first few months, not just the harder shit.

[thothkins]

it's frustrating, but just keep repeating the "it's-all-part-of-development" mantra.

[DNK]

Note that you can damage corvettes, return to base, rearm (very quickly), and go back out and shoot them down with just 1 foxtrot with 4 alenium torpedoes so long as they are not too far. It saves their damage from the first attack, and corvettes seem to just wander about aimlessly a lot.

[svidangel]

Except for most of us, Foxtrots only have 2 torpedoes now! QQ.... I can't even kill a single light scout with that.

[GizmoGomez]

Just use your starting pair of condors. Works like a charm.

[svidangel]

Yeah, they are off killing the OTHER light scout though.

[jazzglands]

I resently played xcom (old) and its air combat was reasonibly balanced all size craft appeared from the start and the small ones never really went away until you did amazing at the game then they sent in the bigger stuff. But with this one its like tiered on a monthly basis; Month one: Small Scouts and Scouts Month two: Scouts in the beginning then fighters and bombers for the rest of the year

Hah. This is a known thing though. Balancing air combat and the geoscape in general is the next step for the developers.

[Xadism]

Yeah, the air difficulty spike is pretty absurd. I'm in late October, build v18 stable, normal difficulty. All last month was light scouts and scouts, which a single condor takes out without difficulty, so I focussed on improving equipment for the ground troops.

The game text says Avalanches are so powerful they'll destroy almost anything slow enough to hit.

Small scout: 1 condor, no upgrades, no problem.

Scout: 1 condor, little problem. 2 condors, no problem.

3 Fighter squadron: 2 condors, win with a little damage. 2 condors + foxtrot, still no upgrades: no problem. Missiles take out one fighter, cannons finish off the other two.

Next thing I see: corvette. By now I have gatling lasers. Wipes out my squadron every time. I savescummed 8 times trying to figure out the tactics to beat it. Eventually I manage to hit it with almost everything by getting it to chase the foxtrot and circling the condors around behind.

... which still didn't work. The damn thing soaked up 2 avalanches, 6 sidewinders, ~50 cannon rounds and a FULL LOAD of 250 gatling laser rounds without going down. WTF? My experience went from "avalanches? who needs them - these ships are weak!" to "Is it even possible to kill this thing?" I didn't get alenium explosives, sure, but I *did* build aircraft weapons (gatling lasers) before any weapons for my troops. On Normal difficulty, that shouldn't be a fatal mistake.

What's the point of the gatling laser if the only ships it can take out are ones you can take out just fine with a normal cannon?

[DNK]

Corvettes: get into rear trailing with 3x foxtrots (or whatever you have) (don't engage immediately, tell the squadron to tail target for a 'game minute' so on the geoscape they're both going the same direction, THEN engage). Launch all torpedoes. Return to base. Reload (takes about '5min'). Go back and do it again. Enjoy the ground battle.

[shabowie]

You really need Alienium warheads for corvette and up I think. Also I think the move to have Foxtrots only carry two weapons is a serious mistake.

[Mytheos]

Yeah if you just have 3 foxtrots with Alenium torpedoes...

You can slow speed to min, and win.

Or if you have to send multiple squadrons because you dont have Alienium Torpedoes....

Reduce speed to min, wait for them to fire, as SOON, as they do hit pause. Click disengage on all 3 Foxtrots, and then hit Afterburners on all 3 Foxtrots...*unpause* and they will deliver their payloads and escape unharmed.

But of course you need to send in another Foxtrot (Or two?) to finish off the Corvette.

[DNK]

Yeah, you should preferably be treating the air combat game as turn-based, using regular pauses to check things and give orders.

[Xadism]

Yeah if you just have 3 foxtrots with Alenium torpedoes...

"Just". I've only been able to afford two foxtrots at all, so one at each base (North America and Europe). Next game I'll ignore vehicles entirely; by not building that one experimental scout (i hated it and stopped using it) i might be able to afford a third Foxtrot by mid-November. Though then with the new FTs only mounting two torps, but still having to build a hangar for each, I'll be worse off than I was. Sigh.

[Dranak]

"Just". I've only been able to afford two foxtrots at all, so one at each base (North America and Europe). Next game I'll ignore vehicles entirely; by not building that one experimental scout (i hated it and stopped using it) i might be able to afford a third Foxtrot by mid-November. Though then with the new FTs only mounting two torps, but still having to build a hangar for each, I'll be worse off than I was. Sigh.

What are you spending your money on? With the current balance it's pretty much imperative to not really spend money on anything ground combat related until you have 3 Foxtrots up per base (ignore Condors/Corsairs, they're far less efficient that Foxtrots) if they are controlled decently.

[thothkins]

I'm in December and have just managed to get away with a single Foxtrot per base. I've just had a massive spike again, with landing ships and heavy fighters, so It's pretty hard on repairs. More are needed I think. Time to build.

[Targe]

I think Cobra was the name of the YF-17, the plane that lost to the F-18.

Stupid name for a US fighter imo, since they already have a gunship called that.

[Aaron]

Wasn't it Viper?

Also I plan some changes that will make it harder to survive on Foxtrots alone soon, not sure if they will be in the next experimental or the one after as they need some code work. Basically we will introduce a rate of fire on missiles, which will be set very low for light missiles but higher for torpedos - so you won't be able to use the staggered launching method with a single Foxtrot to take out an evasive craft, as its evade ability will recharge as fast as you can launch missiles.

[Mytheos]

Wasn't it Viper?

Also I plan some changes that will make it harder to survive on Foxtrots alone soon, not sure if they will be in the next experimental or the one after as they need some code work. Basically we will introduce a rate of fire on missiles, which will be set very low for light missiles but higher for torpedos - so you won't be able to use the staggered launching method with a single Foxtrot to take out an evasive craft, as its evade ability will recharge as fast as you can launch missiles.

I'll wait and see of course...but this worries me.

Evasive Craft applies to escorts? So a Corvette and 2 escorts would take several Foxtrots to take down the corvette and then a pair of condors to finish off the escorts?

Needing 4-5 planes to take down 1 set of 4 or 5 UFOs seems excessive.

I'm not sure why the big push to create a system with Air Combat that HAS to experience so much loss.

I understand the desire to not make it easy for players to shoot down every single UFO, and to add a greater sense of loss to Air Combat...

But right now you have to almost completely focus early resources on Air Combat and IF you have luck and are REALLY good you can progress at a reasonable pace, but you'll be sweating the whole time.

And I keep hearing the Devs chime in with things like "Dont forget you're going to have to pay maintenance on those Hangers soon" and comments that make me feel like its going to get harder.

I know the economy isnt done yet, but the direction just feels weird right now...we want Air Combat to be lesser part of the game, but we're making you focus on it more, and making it harder, even after making planes "Immortal" to make it have a lessened impact.

I have faith it'll get worked out in the end, but it just feels like there are two opposite sides on development pulling against each other when it comes to Air Combat.

[Aaron]

I think that's a false dilemma - just because air combat is not important in the overall scheme of the game doesn't mean it has to also be simplistic and uninteresting. If you can succeed at the air combat by just building loads of Foxtrots and ignoring both Condors and Corsairs then that is clearly broken. Condors and Corsairs should be used to to take out light scouts and also to protect the heavy hitting Foxtrots from fighters.

Keep in mind the economy for the Geoscape is still basically the first pass I made - enough people have said they are short on resources that I will be increasing player income in some way on the next pass, especially if I am also adding more money pits in the form of maintenance.

[Dranak]

It does seem kind of contrary to the idea of putting less emphasis on the air combat to change it so instead of being able to run most bases with 3 hangars/interceptors we'll have to run with 5+, even if we have the funding to do so. That seems like a change that would push things from the current state of their being a clear optimal path, but others are mostly viable to you must have X number of "dogfighting craft" and X number of foxtrots to proceed at all.

Alternatively, has there been any serious thought of removing torpedo boat role entirely and going with a more linear style of aircraft progression/upgrades? That would change the geoscape portion of air expenditures from "Do you have the right mix" to "Are you keeping up on tech?"

[GizmoGomez]

I like the torpedo boat, I say leave it how it is.

Personally, needing more aircraft to take out UFOs is perfectly alright with me. If I have the funding for it, that is.

We shouldn't be able to compete on a one-to-one basis with these über-advanced UFOs.

[DNK]

Put me down for someone who's confused by devs saying:

1. Air combat is too hard and important

2. Air combat needs to be harder and more involved

We get magic interceptors to nerf air combat, then we get told we need more interceptors to manage a more buffed air combat...