V18.3 Geoscape Balance Discussion

[Sathra]

Missing spawn for Shrike. Flashman's made a fix for it.

I'm not sure if 3 is actually working, but that's what I get from the files.

[Lancebloke]

Sathra - so I guess with number 2, the bug I seem to have is contributing to the ridiculous amount of ufos I see!

Hopefully someone can look in to that one then.

[Sathra]

Yeah, there's a mystery with you being unable to do a base attack.

[Solarius Scorch]

Hello, this is my first post here and it contains some ideas based on the current Steam release. The game is already wonderful, beautiful and enticing, but I'll focus on the shortcomings (of which you are probably aware anyway, but a voice always counts). Sorry if some of these have already been addressed, I'm not exactly a regular on this forum yet.

First issue: laser and plasma cannons aren't worth researching, not to mention manufacturing. The missiles are so much better that the cannon makes litttle to no difference in air combat. Pounding an Interceptor - which is well-armored, but still small - with cannons is pretty much useless. The big difference comes with Gauss cannons: these are worthy of having, but still nothing in comparison to the plasma beam from X-Com. I wish the better cannons were at least useful enugh to warrant the expenses.

Second issue: the Valkyrie is way too slow. The Xenopedia says something about 2000 kph, while it barely makes 1200 kph. I personally don't mind it much, but I find it hard to justify.

I hope you receive points for shooting down UFOs even if they crash on land (or the ocean.) It can become difficult to keep up with all the recovery operations after the game gets going, so if some points could be awarding just for downing UFOs even if you don't run a recovery mission that would be a good thing.

I think it'd be valid to assume that the founding nations don't care much whether the craft is completely destroyed or not, as long as it's no longer dangerous. It's the only the player's choice whether they want a crash site or not. I'm not sure if unattended crash sites that disappear should give negative points or not, but I think they shouldn't.

Those are now 5 types, since you added base attacks.

I'd recommend an abduction mission, or a ground scout mission, or something simple that just gives them an excuse, any excuse, to land. Even if it doesn't do anything to the region, or it just makes the region lose points a little bit more, it'd be good to have landed ships occasionally just for the sake of fighting a full force.

How about adding diplomatic missions? I've always wanted to bust in on a secret meting between the aliens and country officials from a wavering country and set things right. It could also give you some additional leverage in negotiations with this particular country, since you have the evidence against them and you also have proven your efficiency. Plus, it could help set the 1980 feel of the game.

Thanks mostly to corvettes, I was able to afford a second (interception) base in November, with 3 Condors and a Foxtrot. By December I had lost the funding bloc which the base was built on, mostly because it had been attacked quite harshly in the previous months which was something I couldn't do anything about. Could either events in blocs not covered by radar be less harsh re. relations, or could building a base in a bloc improve (once) relations by a catergory or two?

I strongly support the latter option. Building a base just to improve relations is a desperate move, but it should have at least some impact on funding relations. After all, a base means better protection, and is also a demonstration of strength.

[Lancebloke]

Solarius - agree with you on the cannon front. I would assume that an aircraft mounted plasma beam/gun would have far better range than it does. Same goes with the magstorm considering you are talking hypersonic velocities... these should remain accurate for a few miles not just a tiny bit more than the cannon.

Is it possible to get funding blocs back on side again or did that get left out?

[Max_Smirnov]

I just "finished" campaign on the current beta build (on Normal) and here's my analysis of the geoscape part of the game...

1. The game has two distinct phases, basically pre-battleship phase, where I was able to easily destroy any UFO with F-17s and MiGs, and the battleship phase, where the aforementioned machines suddenly lose any meaning.

I had 4 bases, 3 F17s and 2 MiGs each. MiGs are easy to produce if you have cash, so that was no problem. I was using F-17s to knock out escorts (if any), then sending MiGs for the kill. Due to constant upgrades in missile warheads, I encountered no UFO that could withstand 8 torpedoes (even the ones that destroy 2 with their point defense), and similarly, Heavy Fighters were easy enough to knock out with 1 missile to force them into a roll, followed by well-timed two missiles and cannon fire. I hardly ever lost an aircraft.

Then, the Battleship/Interceptor combo appeared and suddenly, my air fleet stopped working. Knocking out 2 interceptors with 3 F-17s IS possible, but not when a Battleship covers them. But that wasn't even the main problem. Battleships are the first UFOs that are faster than MiGs so chasing them turned impossible. After losing several air combats, I've decomissioned my entire fleet and started to mass-produce Marauders. No half-measures could do, I had to build two bases solely dedicated to manufacture Marauders (90 technicians each) and still, first two months were a disaster. Only when I had three groups of three Marauders each, I have regained the control of the skies. Still, it required flying three sorties agains each group, knock out Interceptors, retreat, carry six torpedoes, retreat, and finally carry six more torpedoes to finish the battleship off. I tried to engage them with gauss cannons, but it was a pretty much futile endavour. Even after launching 4 Fusion Torpedoes (two hitting, one plane was drawing the BS's attention and couldn't fire) and spending all cannon ammo on the battleship, it required two further sorties to finish it off, so I stopped trying to save fuel.

And this is another problem, my Marauders were taking some damage vs. Interceptors (with Plasmas, as much as 20-25%, with Mags, no more than 5%). You can't refuel a damaged plane, which I don't exactly like (you should be able to refuel planes damaged up to 10-15%, I think), and Marauders take ages to repair (shouldn't the repair times be per % of HP lost, not per flat number?)

2. The Corsair is completely useless. It requires a pretty big investment in time and money, offering only modest improvements. There is little it can do that F-17 can't, so only fully replacing F-17s with Corsairs would net any advantage. Still, such a move would be impractical due to long construction time and substantial cost. If I built a fleet of Corsairs, I'd have means to knock out Interceptors, but, since there is no faster replacement for MiG, I wouldn't be able to do much versus Battleships. By the time you can build Corsairs, doing so would mean no weapons for the troops. When you are finally able to deploy an industrial base large enough to build fleets of aircraft, the Marauders are around, and they're so utterly awesome there is no point of building any other fighters.

3. The dropships. Man, talk about a letdown. I actually lost interest in playing after finally trying out the ultimate one, Valkyrie. While this belongs to the ground combat topic, I must say that increases in squad size, while useful, aren't that critical. And the innovative Valkyrie deployment method actually is disanvantageous compared to the normal one.

But the main problem is SPEED. While Charlie is unreastically fast (why? Isn't it just a helo? Drop it to 350 kph, to keep immersion , and allow an improved dropship to be researched early), the other dropships gain almost no increases in speed, which is a major letdown. A game is about work and reward, and I daresay, the dropships are the biggest reward of all. UFO had the Avenger, which was pretty much OP, but, dammit, it was pretty much the final reward for playing.

I guess that adding more ships at this point is pretty much impossible, but the game loses out a lot by making all the dropships too similar. Increase the differences in speed, remove or improve the "drop-pod" system and maybe add some combat means to the better dropships (maybe an antimissile system + cannon, so they at least could stand up to a lone small ufo?), that'd make the game much more fun.

4. As far as the funding goes, I have no issues whatsoever. Even if you allow yourself to lose a couple of regions, you can easily make up for that elsewhere by shooting down all the UFOs and doing it fast. Before the battleship phase comes in, that is. I particularly like the constant money drain caused by the alien bases, that way you're able to quickly find out where the base is and send scouts to find it. Although aliens building a base on Week 1 is pretty unfair; they shouldn't be building any before their bigger ships appear, right?

- Max

[svidangel]

To whomever was talking about the cannons not being worth it, I can't really speak for the laser cannon since I didn't use it first playthrough, but the plasma cannon was useful for taking out Medium sized ships, and the MAGSTORM is just amazing. I don't even need missiles anymore, I just fly my Marauder in behind stuff and take it down with cannonfire.

The heavy fighter roll just negates the first missile, it doesn't actually matter if you micro and stagger the missile launches.

Still have never seen a battleship, so I don't know what those were like. Researched everything I could, then got bored and restarted without seeing them. Maybe I'll go back and see how long it takes for one to show up.

I found the shrike to be decently faster than the charlie at least.

Yeah, ation funding was pretty much useless aside from helping cover some of my base costs (after medium ships start showing up). Even then I wanted to make sure I had at least 1million saved before the end of the month so I didn't go negative. Not sure what happens if you go negative but I'd guess it's not good.

[Andeerz]

Max raises some excellent points. I agree with all of them.

I am all for there being a time where all your tier one aircraft become completely useless, and it can even be abrupt (I like the idea of the aliens being all liek "Hahaha... silly hunams. Let's play for real now!) but the construction times and costs for the new crafts need to be more reasonable so you can at least keep up unless you do not play smart. There also needs to be a better balance on funding. Plus, there needs to be some implicit cue that encourages you to up your research on aircraft (not anything explicit... see the Megaman Sequelitis to get a good and funny explanation of what I mean) before this battleship stuff happens. I suggest maybe before battleships arrive in force, there is guaranteed but not entirely overwhelming (depending on difficulty) exposure to a craft faster than a Mig that could still be taken out and/or that is not very consequential in how it affects the attitude of nations if not destroyed. If the player can't take that hint, then they deserve to lose when the battleships come. I dunno... I need to think about this more.

And I COMPLETELY agree about the Charlie. And I seriously advocate the paradrop idea proposed earlier by Gauddlike and some of the suggestions I made here as a way to make Max's ideas regarding the Charlie doable without breaking the game at the very beginning and, just as importantly, adding some cool strategic choices (until advanced dropships make them a non-issue) and a feeling that the replacement dropships are a huge improvement and a truly new technology. This would be an excellent complement to Max's suggestions. It could likely be modded in later on, though...

The issue with the Valkyrie drop pods... I have not gotten that far in the game yet to experience this. But I feel like there is no point for the drop pods unless there was some sort of benefit over having the dropship land, unless it is like an airplane that cannot vertically land. In real life, such a technology would be wonderful since it would allow for a rapid, stealthy, and accurate drop into an area (if they are like how I think they are) without risking the dropship (if done high enough) and minimizing risk to the soldiers on the way down. It would be an improvement over parachuting into an area due to increased speed of deployment, higher accuracy of landing, and more protection. If having a dropship land in the combat area presented some sort of risk to the dropship then it would provide a very good reason for them (like, perhaps it having a risk of being shot at while landing, possibly injuring your Xenonauts and perhaps even forcing a crash landing, or at least maybe it taking sufficient fire while landed could make it unable to return leading to a delay in troop return). Just some food for thought.

[svidangel]

Hmm, finally played with interceptors with a marauder using MAG. Can do it without taking damage, just slow your craft down dramatically when you are about to get in range using the slider on the right, dodge once for the enemy missile. No missiles needed.

Still trying to ream my game into the ground to get battleships, but nothing cept carriers yet.

Jesus, skipped through a whole month of not intercepting anything... how far past carriers are battleships?

Edited June 14, 2013 by svidangel

[Max_Smirnov]

Hmm, finally played with interceptors with a marauder using MAG. Can do it without taking damage, just slow your craft down dramatically when you are about to get in range using the slider on the right, dodge once for the enemy missile. No missiles needed.

Oh I'm not talking about taking on interceptors on their own, without the battleship. That's easy. In any case, everything is more or less easy with 3 Marauders. The problem is to manufacture them in large quantities and on time. I wasn't using rockets since I'm only using torpedoes, useless against Interceptors. Because if the Marauder takes even 1% damage, you CAN'T rearm it. And light missiles are again, useless against big ships.

About the Valkyrie drop pods, well. The idea might be cool but in reality, you land in the middle of the field, with little choice of the LZ, with no cover, and the aliens get the first turn. Not too sweet if you ask me.

Oh yeah, and for me, the battleships started to appear around early February I think.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Max_Smirnov

[svidangel]

Finally ran a mission with a Valk... LOVE the deployment phase, and combined with the number of elite troops i can cram in it... ground combat is even easier. Not impressed with the airspeed, was hoping I'd be able to at least zoom to those hopping massive/large ships before they took off.

It's a HUGE area to deploy in though, and at least the spot I landed in had "stuff" around the edges I could use as cover. Heh, plus anything that spawns near me can be shot by 16 guys with near 100 accuracy. Splat?

Edited June 14, 2013 by svidangel

[svidangel]

Mid-march now, still just carriers. Very sad. having to do ground missions again for the cash.

There we go. wow yes, that sucker drinks up magstorm ammo. By midmarch though you should be able to afford fleets of aircraft though.

Edited June 14, 2013 by svidangel

[Andeerz]

Oh! You get to choose where you land with the drop pods?!!! That sounds pretty cool! But I take it, it is pretty borked at the moment, no?

[svidangel]

It worked just fine. Big open area where your ship used to land, can place your guys anywhere in there. Huuuge open area. If you want to evacuate though, the exact points you put down your soldiers are recorded though haha. Imagine THAT scramble for safety.

Only problem I have with it is that it's not as fast as I'd like.

[Andeerz]

Hmmm... the big obvious problem I see with that is that if there isn't cover and there are baddies within range, you might be screwed.

[svidangel]

Haha, except you get to shoot first. At least 16 times.

-and you get FULL TU usage, no needing to move out of your craft.

[Andeerz]

Oh! Well, that sucks for any aliens in range, then!

[smoitessier]

As far as an incentive or hint to build up your air fleet as fast as possible what about if the Landing ships and later big guys would not suddenly pop up en mass at set times. What if about a month before hand (i.e. when it's impossible to shoot one down) say your in Corvette era you would get to run into a Landing ship while you still have alienium missiles... You would be WTF I can't even make a dent in that thing! It could be an atmospheric readied prototype that sometimes fails miserably and crashes badly enough to leave no survivors or datacores, hand weapons, etc.. salvageable, so you can't get a jump in research. Or it could just blow up in midair like a fighter if you did manage to take one out with much luck, the reasoning being it's a prototype? idk just food for thoughts.

[Andeerz]

I wouldn't even see the reason to make it fail miserably. Just have those ships come in only occasionally for a week or two before the real wave begins. Or they would only be over the ocean...

[thothkins]

yeah, being utterly unable to intercept craft that appear already is a pretty good incentive for me

[GizmoGomez]

I have a suggestion that could make air combat more balanced. Make hangers cheaper. It would let us make room for building new planes more easily, let us have more aircraft, and therefore less of a chance to lose the game automatically if we lose a single plane.

Also, repairing an aircraft shouldn't prevent refueling it. Maybe it would if the aircraft had taken severe damage, but not if it only got grazed by a single plasma bolt. I've seen complaints about that.

[smoitessier]

How about if hangars would have space for a 2nd AC in construction, say until 50% completed, then it would wait till the current AC was relocated or destroyed to continue construction? Might be too confusing tho

[ThunderGr]

Also, repairing an aircraft shouldn't prevent refueling it. Maybe it would if the aircraft had taken severe damage, but not if it only got grazed by a single plasma bolt. I've seen complaints about that.

Repairing a plane while refueling? Wow, man, this is dangerous!! Those safety protocols are there for a reason you know!

[GizmoGomez]

Ha, I know that, but putting some aluminium sheeting on a wing burn *probably* isn't going to blow up the plane.

I'm just thinking light damage could have simultaneous refueling.

[svidangel]

As far as an incentive or hint to build up your air fleet as fast as possible what about if the Landing ships and later big guys would not suddenly pop up en mass at set times. What if about a month before hand (i.e. when it's impossible to shoot one down) say your in Corvette era you would get to run into a Landing ship while you still have alienium missiles... You would be WTF I can't even make a dent in that thing! It could be an atmospheric readied prototype that sometimes fails miserably and crashes badly enough to leave no survivors or datacores, hand weapons, etc.. salvageable, so you can't get a jump in research. Or it could just blow up in midair like a fighter if you did manage to take one out with much luck, the reasoning being it's a prototype? idk just food for thoughts.

This could be dangerously discouraging to players who actually take a swing and strike out, losing all of their planes. It seems like the idea is to help new players with a warning... but the consequences could have the opposite effect.