Suggestion - Shorten grenade range to something a little more believable.

[StellarRat]

Xenonauts and aliens can simply throw them too far right now. It should be based on strength. This is something that bugged me about the original series and now this game. You can literally toss a grenade past the effective range of a pistol or shotgun. This makes no sense at all. Grenades are/should be close in weapons. I'd make the maximum grenade range = 1 /tile for every 10 strength. If you try to throw the grenade ought land in the tile that's at the maximum range OR you simply shouldn't be allow to target a tile past your maximum range. For lighter objects like flares, I'd make use same formula with the final result multiplied by 2 or heavier objects the same result divided by two.

Edited March 25, 2013 by StellarRat

[radister]

I think 1 for every 10 strength is too high. personally i would want at least 2 tiles per 10 strength. but i do agree to your point. Being able to throw them that far is abit to much right now. but isn't this more of a balance issue?

[StellarRat]

I think 1 for every 10 strength is too high. personally i would want at least 2 tiles per 10 strength. but i do agree to your point. Being able to throw them that far is abit to much right now. but isn't this more of a balance issue?

Yeah, maybe it is a balancing issue, but we don't have a separate balancing section yet. Personally, I would go with even shorter ranges, but I think that would cause an outcry about fun vs. realism. This seems like a decent compromise to me.

[Gauddlike]

The argument about throwing range would certainly come up if you reduced it that far.

The thing to remember is that none of the weapon ranges are as long as they would be if the game world used real world physics.

Add a modifier to the weapons_gc.xml so that the range can be adjusted and then everyone can tweak it to their own liking.

Maybe the modifier could be the strength value needed per tile?

You might then adjust it to 15 (so the game uses 1 tile per 15 str for the range) while radister adjusted it to 5 to get his desired range.

Then at least we could compare notes and find out which was the best middle ground.

[StellarRat]

The argument about throwing range would certainly come up if you reduced it that far.

The thing to remember is that none of the weapon ranges are as long as they would be if the game world used real world physics.

Add a modifier to the weapons_gc.xml so that the range can be adjusted and then everyone can tweak it to their own liking.

Maybe the modifier could be the strength value needed per tile?

You might then adjust it to 15 (so the game uses 1 tile per 15 str for the range) while radister adjusted it to 5 to get his desired range.

Then at least we could compare notes and find out which was the best middle ground.

That works for me too. Actually your statement is a bit off though. Grenades go WAY too far right now, not too short. As far as the other weapons go, you can shoot anyone of them across the map as far as I know (though I haven't tried this) the question is whether or not you can hit/hurt anything at that range. Edited March 25, 2013 by StellarRat

[Gauddlike]

I was pointing out that none of the other weapons have realistic ranges so a reduction to grenade range (below what an average person may feel they could personally throw one) is not very far fetched.

[StellarRat]

My research is telling 25 - 35 yards is the limit. That would be about 5 tiles by my reckoning. I think my strength divided 10 formula works pretty well. Considering that our Conan grade soldiers and Sebillans could hurl one 9-10 tiles I think most people wouldn't complain it was too short if they knew the range would increase as their troops progressed..

[radister]

a yard is 0.9 meters (sorry i use meters as that what im used too) so one tile is 5 yards a tile means one tile is about 4 and half meters.

i expect each tile to be 1.5 meters personaly (thats about 1.7 ish yards i think) so 25 yards = 22 meters ish, so 22 / 1.5 = 14.6 tiles so a human can toss a granade about 13 to 15 tiles would make more sence.

However even i think thats abit high, i think it should be 11 to 13 tiles. going to test that now to see how well it does.

[StellarRat]

a yard is 0.9 meters (sorry i use meters as that what im used too) so one tile is 5 yards a tile means one tile is about 4 and half meters.

i expect each tile to be 1.5 meters personaly (thats about 1.7 ish yards i think) so 25 yards = 22 meters ish, so 22 / 1.5 = 14.6 tiles so a human can toss a granade about 13 to 15 tiles would make more sence.

However even i think thats abit high, i think it should be 11 to 13 tiles. going to test that now to see how well it does.

You need to keep in mind that the ground scale and weapons ranges aren't matched in Xenonauts. For example the shotgun effective range is 7 tiles. Normally, a shotgun would be effective to 50 yards even with buckshot. So, by your ground scale: (.9 * 50) / 1.5 = 30 tiles. Obviously, the effective weapon ranges have been way shortened to make the maps useable at the current size. If we factor the ratio of reduction, 7/30 = .23, .23 * 15 = 3.5, so my formula is very generous all other things being equal. IMO, 13-15 tiles is way too far.

[crusherven]

It would be nice--but perhaps too much work--to have some sort of visual representation of the grenade's range. Something like a large circle inscribed on the ground when you select one. Between the current UI and the apparent bug with grenades not having a proper arc, I'm having a hard time getting a feel for grenades.

[StellarRat]

Yeah, there is bug when you try to throw a grenade over an intervening obstacle. I've reported that one. I'm sure it will be fixed.

What I'm trying to avoid is having a "human grenade launchers" in the game. You can carry a ton of grenades if you don't have a primary weapon and it just seems wrong to me for that to be a possible role for one of your soldiers. If that's what Chris wants he ought to give us a real grenade launcher or small mortar (60mm) in the game. Limiting the range of grenades seems like the best way to keep this gamey tactic to a minimum. (Yes, it was gamey in XCom too, specially once you got alien grenades in your arsenal.)

Edited March 25, 2013 by StellarRat

[radister]

I would agree on shorter range if it wasn't for the fact grenades explode right away.

within 5 tiles and a powerful grenade i wonder if my xenonauts might just get blown up too.

But yeah, i guess the human grenade launcher could be a problem, and adding more range does make it more deadly a weapon. and i don't like the idea of aliens tossing grenades half way across the map or just out of my view.

I still think 5 is too little tho. maybe 8 is more fitting (at least as a starting point)

[StellarRat]

I would agree on shorter range if it wasn't for the fact grenades explode right away.

within 5 tiles and a powerful grenade i wonder if my xenonauts might just get blown up too.

But yeah, i guess the human grenade launcher could be a problem, and adding more range does make it more deadly a weapon. and i don't like the idea of aliens tossing grenades half way across the map or just out of my view.

I still think 5 is too little tho. maybe 8 is more fitting (at least as a starting point)

That would be OK by me.

[svidangel]

The soldier accuracy with grenades is pretty awful though. And with this suggestion it would kinda suck not to be able to throw a grenade across a street. Or in game terms, between any two pieces of cover. Consider that enemies (and NPC troops) can already shoot far beyond a soldier's incredibly limited visual range, and I don't think that grenades are terribly imbalanced. They also don't even scratch most terrain.

Also a bit bitter that my sniper rifle can barely shoot down one block. First terror mission didn't go well ;p

[svidangel]

Actually, on the topic of grenades...

1. Are flashbangs actually working? I have yet to cause any suppression with them.

2. If they do work, 6-8 square range would be terrible, both for them and for smoke grenades. May as well give soldiers an explosive with 4 square radius and let them throw it 2 squares.

I wonder if once the aliens start using grenades they will be able to throw them to the chinook from their UFO enterance....

[Max_Caine]

Flashbangs work properly if:

1) You drop the grenade right on target.

2) You don't exceed the operational range (10 squares).

That's because of the way suppression is calculated.

[svidangel]

Ah, silly me. I've been trying to use them to avoid BEING in line of sight. You know, the main point of flashing ;p One less thing to carry I guess.

[StellarRat]

Flashbangs work properly if:

1) You drop the grenade right on target.

2) You don't exceed the operational range (10 squares).

That's because of the way suppression is calculated.

Have you filed a bug report on this? Both points sound wrong. The flash bang should be very effective in causing suppression better than the LMG even.

[StellarRat]

The soldier accuracy with grenades is pretty awful though. And with this suggestion it would kinda suck not to be able to throw a grenade across a street. Or in game terms, between any two pieces of cover. Consider that enemies (and NPC troops) can already shoot far beyond a soldier's incredibly limited visual range, and I don't think that grenades are terribly imbalanced. They also don't even scratch most terrain.

Also a bit bitter that my sniper rifle can barely shoot down one block. First terror mission didn't go well ;p

I think 10 tiles would easily be enough to throw across a street, maybe even a four lane. Have you measured off 10 tiles? As far as scratching terrain, I blew up a hedgerow all the way down to ground level with 4 of them and that seemed way unrealistic to me. A grenade really can't do much structural damage to anything. They simply don't contain enough HE.

As far as sighting range goes, yeah, it's way short, but it was in XCom too. The problem is to do the game in proper ground scale the maps would be gigantic and probably wouldn't even run on some machines with the level of detail Xenonauts has. I know you can hit things REALLY far away with a sniper and closer spotter combo. Just put you sniper in the back field and use him to kill things your scouts find.

[svidangel]

I suppose that's just one of the things Firaxes did that felt "right." Once I got the sniping skill, I could stick a sniper up on a building and pick things off from reeaaallly far away. Kind of like what the aliens seem to be doing right now, except from inside their ships.

I'll have to try and destroy some hedges, I didn't realize they were destructible. The range on the grenades is the only thing that has kept me using them since I can't throw them over anything!

[Max_Caine]

StellarRat, it's not a bug. It's just there are no special cases when it comes to calculating suppression. Having spent some time testing this, the most effective thing that can be done is to increase the operational range of the flashbang from 10 to higher.

[radister]

I suppose that's just one of the things Firaxes did that felt "right." Once I got the sniping skill, I could stick a sniper up on a building and pick things off from reeaaallly far away. Kind of like what the aliens seem to be doing right now, except from inside their ships.

I'll have to try and destroy some hedges, I didn't realize they were destructible. The range on the grenades is the only thing that has kept me using them since I can't throw them over anything!

For me snipers was the one thing firaxes got so wrong. once you get the skills the sniper is such a broken weapon(broken as in too good it breaks gameplay balance). its out of range of alien most of the time so it won't die and it has a perfect chance of killing most aliens. on my second gameplay i banned myself using snipers.

[Max_Caine]

That's perhaps one thing Xenonauts does, is level the field so everyone has "squad sight" (and by god the aliens will act on it!).

[svidangel]

For me snipers was the one thing firaxes got so wrong. once you get the skills the sniper is such a broken weapon(broken as in too good it breaks gameplay balance). its out of range of alien most of the time so it won't die and it has a perfect chance of killing most aliens. on my second gameplay i banned myself using snipers.

Yowch, I wouldn't have wanted to go all the way through impossible without snipers, but to each their own. Was rough enough WITH snipers, and it's not like you could even use them effectively on all maps.

And yeah, squad sight on aliens and NPCs is, I think, causing the fire though walls bug. Even better eh?

[Max_Caine]

Well.. it's revealed a bug that might have gone unnoticed otherwise. Right up to the point where people start taking speculative shots into the inky blackness.