[v4.12.1 - Ground Combat] Grenadiers have become wildly inaccurate

[Bernie22405]

I've noticed that over the last few builds grenadiers have become more and more inaccurate, culminating in today's combat where a grenadier with 87% accuracy rating is firing grenades at 90 degrees from the target and firing others that miss by wide distances.  Grenadiers became utterly useless inside structures and ships with the advent of the new firing arcs a few builds back, and it's easy enough to replace them with another rifleman when attacking bases but frustrating.  (Indeed, much like assault and shield units, I'm considering just not using them at all due to their very minimal utility.)

While it makes perfect sense for the firing arcs to be parabola can we at least get some accuracy back?  The rest of my troops are starting to keep as close as they can to the grenadier, figuring he's not going to shoot his own foot so it's the safest thing to do around him, I'm not so sure about that.  They're even crowding around him in the chow hall and the showers, and it's getting embarrassing.  If for no other reason than keeping his own buddies from stun-gunning him so that he can't shoot and blow them to smithereens.

[Skitso]

1 hour ago, Bernie22405 said:

  (Indeed, much like assault and shield units, I'm considering just not using them at all due to their very minimal utility.)

Just stopping by to say that assault and shield units are super useful and I'd even say, in places almost OP.

[Bernie22405]

11 hours ago, Skitso said:

Just stopping by to say that assault and shield units are super useful and I'd even say, in places almost OP.

If you find them useful, and I'm sure there are other players as well, then go ahead and use them.  The way that I play I find they have zero utility.  Am I playing "wrong"?  I get enjoyment out of playing the way that I do and isn't that the purpose of games?  

[Skitso]

5 hours ago, Bernie22405 said:

If you find them useful, and I'm sure there are other players as well, then go ahead and use them.  The way that I play I find they have zero utility.  Am I playing "wrong"?  I get enjoyment out of playing the way that I do and isn't that the purpose of games?  

Sure, no need to get upset. Just a frienly advice to not stop using them as they are great. 

[gG-Unknown]

18 hours ago, Skitso said:

Just stopping by to say that assault and shield units are super useful and I'd even say, in places almost OP.

6 hours ago, Bernie22405 said:

 The way that I play I find they have zero utility.  Am I playing "wrong"? 

 

Shield_and_pistol  is almost OP in tight spaces, but  in open spaces they are sitting ducks. (thanks to latest change, pistol efficient  range 10,  I recommend it) I believe  it is  the proper  role of specific Load-out  style, dominate  in certain situation, but suffer in other.

 

Back to topic :

I  have to  agree, it looks like HEVY can miss 20 tiles away. It is crazy !

I dont know how miss mechanic works but lets use MOA measurement.

https://telluric.us/minute-of-angle

Then we can discuss how many  tiles is acceptable  MOA for HEVY at max range,  mid range, min  range.

 

Perhaps add MOA mechanic for all weapons could improve close  range shooting too.

Edited June 29, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[gG-Unknown]

double post, delete me.

Edited June 29, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[silencer]

Shields are super usefull. They block damage, they lead the charge in UFO.

[Chris]

On 6/28/2024 at 11:47 AM, Bernie22405 said:

I've noticed that over the last few builds grenadiers have become more and more inaccurate, culminating in today's combat where a grenadier with 87% accuracy rating is firing grenades at 90 degrees from the target and firing others that miss by wide distances.  Grenadiers became utterly useless inside structures and ships with the advent of the new firing arcs a few builds back, and it's easy enough to replace them with another rifleman when attacking bases but frustrating.  (Indeed, much like assault and shield units, I'm considering just not using them at all due to their very minimal utility.)

While it makes perfect sense for the firing arcs to be parabola can we at least get some accuracy back?  The rest of my troops are starting to keep as close as they can to the grenadier, figuring he's not going to shoot his own foot so it's the safest thing to do around him, I'm not so sure about that.  They're even crowding around him in the chow hall and the showers, and it's getting embarrassing.  If for no other reason than keeping his own buddies from stun-gunning him so that he can't shoot and blow them to smithereens.

Thanks. This isn't really a bug and is better posted in the balance threads in future, but I guess we can discuss it.

If you roll a hit with the HEVY, the shot always goes exactly where you aimed, so 87% accuracy isn't relevant to how much you miss by. It just means you've got an 87% chance of the shot not scattering at all.

If you don't score a hit, obviously the grenade needs to be able to scatter a fair distance otherwise the grenades are still going to catch the target in the blast area and even a 1% hit chance shot still ends up being a hit almost every time. So it's finding a balance between not having miss shots look and feel stupid to the player, and not having the HEVY be overpowered.

Did the grenade actually scatter 90 degrees from the target? If the target was North the shot went dead East? Because it's shouldn't be possible for a shot to scatter that much.

[gG-Unknown]

14 hours ago, Chris said:

If you roll a hit with the HEVY, the shot always goes exactly where you aimed.It just means you've got an 87% chance of the shot not scattering at all.

If you don't score a hit, obviously the grenade needs to be able to scatter a fair distance otherwise the grenades are still going to catch the target in the blast area and even a 1% hit chance shot still ends up being a hit almost every time. So it's finding a balance between not having miss shots look and feel stupid to the player, and not having the HEVY be overpowered.

The  size of miss really feels like a bug,  althou it could be an extreem spread of miss.

What  does exactly means "able to scatter a fair distance" ?

Perhaps make a MOA mechanic to  set :

https://telluric.us/minute-of-angle

a] scatter at max range 8 tiles

b]  scatter at mid range 6 tiles

c] scatter at min  range 3 tiles

Also, please re-check  if projectile  trajectory of missed grenade use different route than visualisation. It happended to me : aim far ahead, like 20 tiles,  than 3 of my soldiers standing in front of HEVY get  hit by grenade, even the visual trajectory  show no hit prediction. My guess is, it was a miss for 15 tiles OR a miss grenade travelled different trajectory than visualisation and hit my soldier as accident.

[Chris]

32 minutes ago, gG-Unknown said:

The  size of miss really feels like a bug,  althou it could be an extreem spread of miss.

What  does exactly means "able to scatter a fair distance" ?

Perhaps make a MOA mechanic to  set :

https://telluric.us/minute-of-angle

a] scatter at max range 8 tiles

b]  scatter at mid range 6 tiles

c] scatter at min  range 3 tiles

Also, please re-check  if projectile  trajectory of missed grenade use different route than visualisation. It happended to me : aim far ahead, like 20 tiles,  than 3 of my soldiers standing in front of HEVY get  hit by grenade, even the visual trajectory  show no hit prediction. My guess is, it was a miss for 15 tiles OR a miss grenade travelled different trajectory than visualisation and hit my soldier as accident.

There's a maximum scatter angle for a missed shot, so shots can scatter more when you're shooting at longer range.

Yes, missed HEVY grenades take a different route from the visualisation - because if they used the same route, then they'd be hit shots, right? 

[Skitso]

1 hour ago, Chris said:

There's a maximum scatter angle for a missed shot, so shots can scatter more when you're shooting at longer range.

Yes, missed HEVY grenades take a different route from the visualisation - because if they used the same route, then they'd be hit shots, right? 

It does look quite funny when the HEVY grenade scatters three buildings to the left. It might make more sense if the scatter distance was mostly length (too short/long) and not so much left/right?

[gG-Unknown]

6 hours ago, Chris said:

Yes, missed HEVY grenades take a different route from the visualisation - because if they used the same route, then they'd be hit shots, right? 

I  see, right.

In this case, make  please  also visualisation of possible miss. The perfect  Hit trajectory (now it is working) AND enveloping tube-like semi-transparent object, which gives me  a hint what I COULD possible hit. At the moments  it looks like possible hit area is anything in 60degree cone of max range.

6 hours ago, Chris said:

There's a maximum scatter angle for a missed shot, so shots can scatter more when you're shooting at longer range

Yes.

How many tiles is scatter at max range ?

How many tiles is scatter at mid range ?

How many tiles is scatter at min range ?

 

 

Edited July 1, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[gG-Unknown]

On 7/1/2024 at 1:38 PM, Chris said:

There's a maximum scatter angle for a missed shot,

Check the vid. 20  tiles away from target in 60 degree angle.

 

I dont think It does work as intended.

Perhaps, consider add a scatter table to your Wiki for grenades and HEVY. So player would know how much is possible to miss.

Edited July 4, 2024 by gG-Unknown

[Bernie22405]

On 6/30/2024 at 4:28 PM, Chris said:

Thanks. This isn't really a bug and is better posted in the balance threads in future, but I guess we can discuss it.

If you roll a hit with the HEVY, the shot always goes exactly where you aimed, so 87% accuracy isn't relevant to how much you miss by. It just means you've got an 87% chance of the shot not scattering at all.

If you don't score a hit, obviously the grenade needs to be able to scatter a fair distance otherwise the grenades are still going to catch the target in the blast area and even a 1% hit chance shot still ends up being a hit almost every time. So it's finding a balance between not having miss shots look and feel stupid to the player, and not having the HEVY be overpowered.

Did the grenade actually scatter 90 degrees from the target? If the target was North the shot went dead East? Because it's shouldn't be possible for a shot to scatter that much.

It scattered near enough to 90 degrees as to not matter.  I fired down one lane of shipping containers about 2 containers ahead, and it hit near the ramp of the helo which was one row to the side and just slightly forward of the grenadier, maybe one or two tiles ahead.  What's that, about 85 degrees? This is not how real-world grenade launchers operate.  (I'm a retired Vietnam War USN Gunner's Mate )  You might not have a direct hit with a grenade launcher but you're going to be close enough to inflict wounds on anyone out in the open and rattle those behind cover.  These misses in the game are so bad they'd be comical if they weren't often causing friendly-fire casualties.  Even in training new guys on the old M79 the absolute worst shots would still be in a twenty-degree arc either side of the target, not these 60+ degree arc misses.  I get not wanting the weapon to be so powerful in the game that it unbalanced everything, but the opposite side of that pendulum swing is that it is often so inaccurate that it's a danger to your own troops more than to the enemy, which is where I think we are now.  It's already a weapon with very limited ammo, giving it limited utility.  Is the blast radius effect at least graduated moving outward from the POI?  I haven't played for a while (got injured working on my Jeep) and I can't remember if it was or not, but it should be.

Anyway, if this is not the right place to discuss this then I'll shut up now, but to me it seemed more like a bug that suddenly cropped up a few versions back (at the time I mentioned it) and not a behavior that was there all along and just in need of tweaking.  It was such a sudden change it felt like something got borked.

[Bernie22405]

On 6/29/2024 at 2:01 AM, Skitso said:

Sure, no need to get upset. Just a frienly advice to not stop using them as they are great. 

I'm not upset and this isn't my first XCOM-style rodeo.  I was one of the early reviewers back in the 90s when Microprose started publishing the franchise, and I've played every version since, including the original Xenonauts.  There's some units I find that have great utility, and others I find useless.  It's just how I play and I'm okay with that.  I don't usually play games with the objective of winning in the best time or with the highest score, a lot of the times I just play because I like blowing stuff up and I'm a disabled old fart who has to spend more time in a chair than he'd like.  If I had my druthers I'd be in my Jeep, out wheeling on a trail somewhere, but ...

[Bernie22405]

One new observation I've made is that it seems that regardless of what hit percentage is displayed for the grenadier, their first shot in combat is almost always dead on and their second shot, however many turns later and whatever odds are displayed, will be a wild miss.  The only exceptions seem like 90% and above (never seem to miss), and 10% or less (always miss).  This is with a unit whose ACC is 81.