Pre-UFO Research Options Thoughts

[anotherdevil]

I don't know if you would. I mean at the beginning you wouldn't know there are supposed to be arcs. Then you capture one and a tooltip pops up (or the guy in the science screen says) basic knowledge of this ufo including weapon angles have been uncovered, further research could lead to these discoveries... =]

[Jean-Luc]

This is slightly off-topic but reading the newly released manual gave me an idea. Chris mentioned how having an unlimited supply of basic weapons/gear is convenient in case of a surprise base attack because you will always have some weapons in hand as opposed to X-Com where you could potentially be left unarmed if you fail to keep some weapons in store.

The idea is to have an improved version of basic ballistic ammo made from "smelted" alien alloys. You'd produce a reserve of this ammo to keep as a "home defense stash" so that it could be used with your basic earth-tech weapons during an emergency. Bringing this ammo (along with basic weapons) to the field wouldn't be worth it in the vast majority of cases since you want your best firepower in those situations but it would be a more economical way of keeping bases secure without having to produce dozens of laser/plasma/sci-fi arms and related magazines.

The idea is for this improved ammo to provide slightly better damage and noticeably improved armour mitigation but, overall, still be inferior to laser rifles, the first "sci-fi weapon". This tech shouldn't be available from the start, maybe after the first alien alloys are recovered or even later as it's not supposed to see much field use (if any). It would be usable with snipers, shotguns, pistols, assault rifles, machine guns and maybe the basic grenades (alien alloy shrapnel?).

Of course, it would only work if ammo type can affect weapon stats. If the stats are tied purely to the weapon this would require a new weapon type as well which would defeat the purpose of convenience.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Jean-Luc

[Sathra]

Could always have it as a new tech either after laser or just after plasma (or slightly before). General upgrade to all ballistic weapons, giving a minor damage boost but a far larger armour mitigation boost.

From playing around with the files it does seem that all weapon stats are based on the weapon, the ammo does nothing. Could always do it a different way, and have it result in a damage boost from ballistic weapons against all alien types (similar to the autopsies).

[anotherdevil]

Or just once the researched all the weapons could be replaced with essentially the same, but updated stats?

[Jean-Luc]

That could work I suppose though the idea was for there to be some investment here, the unlimited amount of basic weapons makes it too convenient imo. Also, if the guns themselves need to be modified/upgraded (rather than using existing ones but with new ammo) it destroys the feasibility of having a virtually unlimited supply of these weapons as they suddenly require incorporation of advanced tech and a major overhaul. It's also more difficult to rationalize. Using alien metals to make better bullets is pretty straightforward but how does researching laser/plasma/technobabble weapons and other alien devices lead to better ballistic/kinetic guns? Suppose you could say that the guns' better performance is due to the ammo (even though it looks/is named the same).

It's a pretty awkward thing to implement/balance. Since the rocket launcher uses different ammo types I was hoping the same could be applied to other weapons.

[anotherdevil]

It could be unlocked after researching new armour, as you realise that the current ballistic bullets don't penetrate well through this armour, you try alien alloy bullets instead (new research topic: Upgrade Ballistic Weapons). I think that to make it free is the only way to go though, otherwise it gets confusing. And then once upgraded, all the ballistics will have this new ammo. And it's not so much of a problem, because you'll mainly be using laser/plasma tech anyway, It's just so those base defense missions aren't a bust...

[Quartermaster]

The main issue I see with just updating the stats is that it would require a bit new coding (I believe) as opposed to just adding a new line on the ammo section for each ballistic weapon. Directly fiddling with the stats is a bit dangerous in code too, because if it is messed up it will crash the game. Sork-wise it looks like it would be easier to just have it unlock an unlimited stock of the ammo.

[anotherdevil]

You just change the stats of the gun, make sure that balanced with the rest of the game, and voila!

no?

[Quartermaster]

You just change the stats of the gun, make sure that balanced with the rest of the game, and voila!

no?

The problem is that you then have to add code which checks the file everytime the game is ran to determine whether or not the tech has been researched. You also have to add the code which checks to see if you load, save, or start a new game after beginning gameplay. The coding wouldn't be horrendous, but it does add a lot of possible occurences for bugs to be added.

Secondly new tags would have to be added to the weapons files to make sure that there was some mechanism to have the upgraded vs. downgraded ballistics.

The easiest way I see that this could be done is to have two ammo types and have it preferentially load the advanced cartriges if they are available. I'm not trying to dispute the idea, just the implementation. Chris and his team would have a better idea of how this would be implemented, but I'm estimating that the change the statistics method would likely cause a lot of potential coding issues.

[anotherdevil]

differing ammo (other than for rocket launchers) is out, Chris et al. have stated that before. I don't see how researching this upgrade would be any different from doing any other weapon research, all the same things still apply, it's just that in this case one weapon is permanently replaced with another

[Quartermaster]

differing ammo (other than for rocket launchers) is out, Chris et al. have stated that before. I don't see how researching this upgrade would be any different from doing any other weapon research, all the same things still apply, it's just that in this case one weapon is permanently replaced with another

Ah, if that is the case then the way you are proposing is pretty much the only option if you want the bigger badder bullet upgrade.

[Belmakor]

How about laser weapon sights? They are not very high tech but go a large way toward increased accuracy. They can be retrofitted onto old weapons and so the unlimited weapon deal would not be an issue. Also, in reality the laser does not make the weapon more accurate, just the user. So you could increase every soldiers accuracy by 10 say from that point on-wards and you would not need to modify any files. This could be a starting tech or it could come after the first contact with aliens using laser technology.

[anotherdevil]

There are not going to be attachments for weapons

[Belmakor]

There are not going to be attachments for weapons

Research is not the same as manufacture.

[Gorlom]

Tesla lightning strike cannons!

bulky ammo single/double charge ammo packs

does not reach long range

innacurate at mid range

VERY accurate at short range to closest target infront (make sure theres no zenonauts between you and your target)

possible special feature: chain lightning damage to targets on adjacent squares (baisicly being an 9 square aoe that only affects biological/mechanical targets and not enviroment. Can't use in the middle of a group of 9 enemies since it targets the closest, theoretically only 5 additional targets would be possible practically i expect 1-2 if even that.)

Later on in the tech tree the Tesla Cannon Mark 2 could have VERY high accuracy at long range and not have the target closest condition (and without the chaining to adjacent squares). But have comparably low damage to other weapons and still have the bulky ammo issue and High AP cost makeing it more of a flavour weapon then some must have thing.

Ps. Hope me beeing so specific about the weapon doesn't limit Chris in modifying the idea to any way he wants =) DS.

Edited January 1, 2012 by Gorlom

[anotherdevil]

Research is not the same as manufacture.

i realise that. But my statement still stands, attachments for weapons such as sights, special ammo types, underslung grenade launchers, etc. wont be in the game.

[Straker]

Still would like a man portable indirect fire weapon like the M79 grenade launcher. It is single shot like the rocket launcher but can go over small obstacles. Its a seperate weapon, not underslung like the M203.

[Sathra]

I think Belmakor was proposing something more like a global accuracy boost for ballistic weapons after researching the tech (the Xenopedia report of which would talk about laser sights). Might not be that useful though, since a few projects later you'd have laser weapons.

@Straker: Not going to happen. Long arguments about it on the old forums, citing the same weapon actually. Thrown grenades will be the only indirect-fire weapon, but there'll be quite a few different kinds. Nerve gas for example.

[Slam Bus Rodan]

I'm just happy you don't have to research med kits. That was one thing about X-Com that bothered me (they eventually corrected the issue in Apocalypse).

Any chance we'll see stun gas launchers in the form of a mountable tank turret?

[NoIdidnt]

I guess some 'upgrade' researches could work. The only thing with that that might not make sense is why the Xenonauts don't already have the best technology available to them, given they've not yet captured any alien tech.

I guess it could be something about tailoring the existing gear to fight the alien invasion better - as there'll be much more intelligence available on the aliens once the invasion starts...

ive not had any problems with the starting gear, it seems to match fairly well with what is needed.

what would be the first thing you would do if you KNEW there was a threat but you had very limited means to detect them?

if i was going to add a researchable tech to start the game with before i actually shot down a UFO it would be a better way to detect them, mabye radar range.

Edited February 29, 2012 by NoIdidnt

[AradoX]

So we've got:

- Better UFO Tracking tech.

- Cruise Missile tech.

- Shock batons tech.

Having a think about it, 'Interception Doctrine' does sound good. Half the early problems with lack of tech is not being able to catch UFO's to shoot them down. Some early research to reduce fuel consumption would help with that.

Either reducing fuel cost for flying around the the Geoscape, or making it easier to catch the UFO's without chasing them around so much (speed boost when near the target?).

We weered off a bit, but is this going to be implemented?

The Cruise Missile tech is important I think. That way you can get rid of crashsites you don't want to go to. I've been making a X-Com boardgame, and there I called a similar feature "Carpet Bombing".

The better UFO detection is good and logical, as per the many reasons stated earlier.

Before doing the research you could maybe make the dialog become this:

Instead of this (as suggested by anotherdevil):

Re. Shock batons I think: not important but ok... You can reason that you want a new military-grade shock baton developed.

Edited March 2, 2012 by AradoX
added pics

[Gauddlike]

Using laser sights as justification for an accuracy boost wouldn't make sense if none of the people on the ground HAD laser sights on their weapons.

You would need to redo all the sprites, possibly for every armour type to show a little red line...

As for ammunition:

The weapon stats are range, recoil, clipsize, weight, reloadcost, how many hands you need, accuracy, and aiming costs.

The damage type, damage amount, and armour mitigation are set by the ammo.

You could add another ammo type that had more damage or better armour penetration quite easily.

The problem is that the GUI only accepts one ammo type per weapon in the equip screens.

If Chris had it changed so that the ammunition could have a modifier to the weapon stats it would make the work of modders easier in the future.

They could add new ammo with a 10% damage increase, 15% less armour penetration, 20% bigger magazine, 10% more AP to reload, 10% range bonus etc.

A simple number modifier might be better than a multiplier though.