First aid improvements

[Skitso]

Giving First aid doesn't currently have much gameplay depth and lacks interesting choices to make.

There's two main issues:

-Firstly, first aid kits are too small, weight too little and have infinite capacity, so almost everyone can carry one into a battle and heal as much as needed with it.

-Secondly, TU cost of giving first aid is set too low, so even critically wounded units can be healed quickly while surrounded by enemies.

My suggestions:

-Make first aid kits heavier and larger so carrying one is a clear choice. I'd love to have to make a separate medic role.

-Make stabilizing bleeding more demanding. Like 30TU per bleed wound or similar. (It'd be cool to have like multiple medics trying to stabilize a badly wounded soldier before bleeding to death.)

-Make healing and stabilizing bleeding wounds separate actions. 

-Make healing cost more TU's. Like 1HP per 1TU.

-Let me choose how much I want to spend TU's when healing. (If I remember correctly X1 had this already)

-Receiving first aid should cost the same amount of TU's that giving it takes.

-First aid kits shouldn't be infinite. (Another good reason for a medic role that could pack multiple first aid kits. One first aid kit should be enough for healing like 120HP. Removing one bleed wound would cost 30HP. So with one first aid kit one could for example remove 2 bleed wounds and still heal 60HP. Or remove 1 bleed wound and then heal 90HP.

-Maybe add a separate small medkit that can only be used to remove one bleeding wound. (Single use)

Edited October 30, 2023 by Skitso

[Twigg]

The problem with this is it's effect on the action/TU economy. The more effort it takes your crew to stabilize from an unlucky hit the more you are incentived to prevent those hits from happening in the first place. This will inevitably lead to overwatch creeping being a more and more effective strategy which is incredibly dull to play.

As it stands the game doesn't reward you for aggressive play and changes like this just push further in that direction. If we want to make getting wounds more punishing to the player than something should also be done to prevent the conclusion to that process be even more camping.

[Hayung]

I posted something similar on the discord so I definitely second this. 

3 hours ago, Twigg said:

The problem with this is it's effect on the action/TU economy. The more effort it takes your crew to stabilize from an unlucky hit the more you are incentived to prevent those hits from happening in the first place. This will inevitably lead to overwatch creeping being a more and more effective strategy which is incredibly dull to play.

As it stands the game doesn't reward you for aggressive play and changes like this just push further in that direction. If we want to make getting wounds more punishing to the player than something should also be done to prevent the conclusion to that process be even more camping.

There are plenty of ways the game can and already does disincentivise camping play - rewards for rescuing civilians, timed missions, reinforcements. A player that relies too much on this style of gameplay may struggle to adapt to other mission types but most of all won't get as much rewards. 

 

The current health and healing system is also pretty gamey and not internally consistent with the lore of the gameworld:

The game talks up alien weaponry as being deadly and our current armour being unable to help at all. Then a dude facetanks a blast and gets 1 bleeding wound which is patched up in seconds by his battle buddy using functionally first aid. 

 

[gG-Unknown]

17 hours ago, Skitso said:

Giving First aid doesn't currently have much gameplay depth and lacks interesting choices to make.

1) -Make first aid kits heavier and larger so carrying one is a clear choice. I'd love to have to make a separate medic role.

2)-Make healing and stabilizing bleeding wounds separate actions. 

2)-Make healing cost more TU's. Like 1HP per 1TU.

3)-Let me choose how much I want to spend TU's when healing. (If I remember correctly X1 had this already)

4)-Receiving first aid should cost the same amount of TU's that giving it takes.

5)-First aid kits shouldn't be infinite. (Another good reason for a medic role that could pack multiple first aid kits. One first aid kit should be enough for healing like 120HP. Removing one bleed wound would cost 30HP. So with one first aid kit one could for example remove 2 bleed wounds and still heal 60HP. Or remove 1 bleed wound and then heal 90HP.

1) by settiing MedKit heavier you basically created the dedicated Medic already. Lets use weight management to let player create a role. I would not recomend to add skills like : medic, sniper, runner. Adding more skills means soldiers are less versatile AND player have to keep attention to more numbers. I would  rather see Xenonauts 2 be a number low system but interesting choices&consequences.

2) yes, the emergency status ( bleeding, poisoning, burning, acid, shock, ... ) removal should be one action. Then healing HP should be another one. However, for sake of simplicity lets make it so, that Medic always remove emergency status first. It is also logical, that medic takes care about critical status first like artery bleeding , then takes care about blister on your little finger.

Regarding healing HP it should  rather be "healing over time" than an instant spell. For sake of reality feeling, apply HP heal, then each round soldier gets  5HP until healing effect is depleted.

3) Althou it sounds reasonable it would require additional dialogue in the combat  UI. Combat is turn-based and slow already, adding such level of control would make it overly complicated. So not recommend. Simple UI is key to success. Check gamee : Trader  40K by Owlcat games. They made so precise and overcomplicated battle UI that is unbearable.

4) Medic should be able to resolve various emergency statuses AND shock statuses (low blood pressure, shell shock, hazard inhalation, unconscious, ...)  these shock statuses means, target is TU limited or  even zero. So Medic emergency action can  only consume medics own TU. However, medic healing HP action could require coordination. So target will consume same TU as medic. Which means, target can not shoot while he is receiving HP healing, that makes sense.

5) yes, Medkit should have a capacity. Similar to shield mechanic. So Medkit  82/120 HP capacity means it has 82 points of 120 maximum. Also, weight management  is important - each point of healing capacity has certain weight. So Medkit 60/120HP has half of the original weight.

Edited October 31, 2023 by gG-Unknown

[Skitso]

16 minutes ago, gG-Unknown said:

3) Althou it sounds reasonable it would require additional dialogue in the combat  UI. Combat is turn-based and slow already, adding such level of control would make it overly complicated. So not recommend. Simple UI is key to success. Check gamee : Trader  40K by Owlcat games. They made so precise and overcomplicated battle UI that is unbearable.

 

The game already has the needed UI in place. Just use similar mechanic as aiming where you can allocate TU's by right clicking. If you have played the first Xenonauts, it had that kind of system in place and it was nice and intuitive.

[SoulFilcher]

On 10/30/2023 at 11:53 AM, Skitso said:

-Make healing and stabilizing bleeding wounds separate actions. 

I'd say replace healing with an option to remove stun damage, then add a healing option to an advanced tech kit that needs to be researched.

Ohhh and don't forget to give them all limited uses.

[Raffik]

21 hours ago, Skitso said:

The game already has the needed UI in place. Just use similar mechanic as aiming where you can allocate TU's by right clicking. 

Agree. 

Alrhough if you split the actions (stop bleeding, then heal), the usage cost of the medkit is a problem. The TU cost would have to be much less, which kind of breaks the advanced medkit logic. Or, the adv. medkit would have to have more uses for example.

To not overcomplicate things, perhaps it would be enough if a medkit would be limited to 5 uses before it is depleted. 

And a tech kit for repairing the vehicles during combat woukd be nice as well.

[gG-Unknown]

1 hour ago, Raffik said:

1)if you split the actions (stop bleeding, then heal), the usage cost of the medkit is a problem. The TU cost would have to be much less, which kind of breaks the advanced medkit logic.

2) tech kit for repairing the vehicles during combat woukd be nice as well.

1. by splitting Emergency status removal (bleed, stun, unconscious, shock, etc.) from HP heal will make usage of medkit more TU hungry, that is right. On the other side, it adds new level of strategy - do I press the task (release abduction tube, capture VIP, etc.) OR do I take care of healt of soldiers ? Currently medkits are  lightweight and endless usage, which means everyone (nearly) can have it. Perhaps make change in few steps.

1st phase :

- add medkit more weight

- add medkit capacity

- add medkit feature of: "weight is based on capacity" (basicaly same as weapons should use with ammo clip, weapons should get lighter after every bullet shot)

- add 1 medkit capacity = 1 HP

- add one emergency status removal (bleed, stun, etc.) costs 20 medkit capacity

- TU usage stay as now

Example: New Medkit has capacity 200 HP weight 25 units. When depleted to 100/200 capacity it weights 13 units. Idea is, giving Medkit large capacity but make it heavy means, player will make dedicated Class Medic with lighter weapons loadout. >> Weight management in action.<< Current status when every soldier is basicaly his own medic wierd.

After proposed update above, lets beta playtest. Based on feedback then

2nd phase :

-  split actions Emergency status removal and heal HP

- make heal HP gradual, heal over time. After heal several rounds healing effect is applyed.  Avoid Dungeon&dragon instant heal spell.

2) after tuning of medkit for organic soliders, then add a medkit for robotic soldiers, with same game mechanics

Make things complicated is easy, but makes it fun to use is a challenge.

 

 

Edited November 1, 2023 by gG-Unknown

[Alienkiller]

I like the first Aid as it is. Where have played old X-COM or is playing new XCOM, Phoenix Point as well as the UFO ET-Series knows that improvements will come later on in the medium Mid-Game-Phase with Alien-Technology.

There Xeononauts 2 have overflown the rivials with the later Auto-Medikit for your Troopers.

In old X-COM you have only the Medikit.

In new XCOM and Phoenix Point you have the Medikit and Advanced Medikit. The Medkit is useable in new XCOM for Vehicle-Repairs too (the equal Research and Workshop-Upgrade get done).

In UFO ET-Series you have the Stimpack (light Wounds) and the Medkit as well as later Advanced Medkit. Evtl. you get very rare special Items there (only from special UFOs of an Swarm or special Leaders) like the Auto-Doc, which isn´t reaserachable and produceable.

 

What the Repair-Set for the MARS / ARES etc. belongs, that would be an intersting seperate special Kit for the Soldiers to bring on the Battlefield until you get something better with more advanced Alien-Technology like in the announced competitors.

[SoulFilcher]

On 11/1/2023 at 4:26 AM, gG-Unknown said:

Perhaps make change in few steps.

I feel that would be the best approach, all these changes at once could be too much in the end. For example if it becomes "optimal" to dedicate a single soldier to the medic role the total number of medikit uses that soldier can carry around could become too severe.

But starting with weight so it isn't something most soldier can have in their inventories would be great.

Maybe there could be a lighter version that doesn't have as many uses and / or can't perform all tasks? Maybe it only removes bleeding. In case players don't want to go for the dedicated role in their squads.

Edited November 3, 2023 by SoulFilcher

[Alienkiller]

An lighter Version of the Medikit is fully acceptable, like it´s in the UFO ET-Series.

But not an single Soldier only for that. If he / she dies the full Troop is lost like the Americans in the Normandie-Landing or Vitnam etc. Means this Special Games of an other Gerne aren´t an Standard Army-Game like the JA-Series, Commandos, Medal of Honor or what they all get called, which are normal Standard-Realistic Games either as Strategy or Shooters.

Such Sci-Fi-Games of the Strategy-Gerne / Shooter-Gerne (beginning with old X-COM) are not comparable with Stanard Army-Games, where you have an seperate Field-Doc, Mechanik etc. only for this, which couldn´t fight or if you get lucky only shoot with an Pistol.

That´s the big difference between realistic Standard-Games (JA-Series, Medal of Honor-Series, Commandos-Series etc., which bases on realistic Soldiers incl. Training / Civil Education) and this Special Gerne (X-COM-Series, new XCOM-Series, UFO-After-Series, UFO ET-Series, Phoenix Point, Dune and similar Fan-Projects).

Edited November 3, 2023 by Alienkiller

[Conductiv]

its a significantly sized box and about 75% of the weight of a assault rifle or roughly the weight of 2 pistols, its not a full on doctors kit but its also not the easy first aid kits that tend to be kept in a cars dashboard. also what is in it? bandages and burn cream, maybe an antiseptic...its definitely not there to be used for the serious injuries as those are dealt with back at base. 

realistically, first aid would be extremely time consuming, so I can understand high TU costs, first aid is rarely done in a hot zone...preferably the person requiring first aid is first moved to a safer location where he can be bandaged up without the soldier doing the bandaging getting shot. it also makes sense that the advanced medkit-spray would be able to do so much faster.
capacity wise, you can keep a hell of a lot of cream and bandages in a box with that size and weight, its not limitless...but if you would use as much in the field as would fit in such a box, half the team would have multiple holes in them that shouldn't be there.
The primary goal of field bandages are to stop bleeds and the most dire problems, with heavy internal bleeding you will need a medevac ASAP as first aid will not save you...just give you a little more time to get the actual medical assistance. as such..it makes little sense for me to create a premium costs for HP recovery over stopping bleeds, the actual problem is represented in this game by HP you cannot recover by lowering the max HP until the soldier had time to completely recover at the base, you can increase the % of unrecoverable HP in the field if you fear soldiers being endlessly patched up.

I don't see much use for a dedicated medic either for that reason, the ingame medicine action is in my book a first aid action, slap a pressure bandage on it and keep going. not a "my guts are spilling out of my abdomen can you please place them back and stitch me up" level of medical action.

logically, you don't heal vehicles with a medkit, for the MARS you could carry along a few extra armor plates and a kit-gun to glue them over a few holes, this however is extremely heavy as armor grade metal plates are not exactly light, and you don't have time to weld in the field either. kit also doesn't keep it in place very well so the plate will likely catch the hit and fall off again. but hey if you have a party strong guy with an exosuit...maybe he can have a few. in game therms this would max out the vehicles armor rating and hardness again, but wouldn't actually affect its HP all that much (you don't have time to check the wiring and all that either)    

[mclang]

Not all field medkits are big in real life

Maybe there could be two sizes available, one small one that can only e.g stop small bleeding and such, and another bigger one for the real medic that can also restore hitpoints and remove more serious status effects?