Could the isHeavy tag have some positives as well as negatives?

[Max_Caine]

As far as I recall, weapons that are tagged as Heavy penalise squaddies who move with an accuracy penality. This is quite appropriate - heavy weapons operate best when they are at rest. But players respond best when they are both rewarded for appropriate behaviour as well as when discouraged against inappropriate behaviour, so why not dangle a few carrots as well as wave a stick?

For example:

• Add a small bonus to reaction fire when the isHeavy conditions are met - the squaddie is clearly preparing himself for targets of opportunity.
  
• Make it slightly cheaper to fire aimed shots - the squaddie has got himself in the best position he can when not in motion.
  
• Make it slightly more expensive to rise from a kneeling state - this represents the additional bulk and weight of the weapon.
  

These don't have to be big things, just little positives or negatives that reflect the style the weapon requires.

[Gorlom]

The first point seems to be a nice Idea.

The second point seems to me difficult to implement. (ie not really orth the hassle) but I don't really care about it.

The third point seems to be a cause for frustration imo. I'd rather leave it out.

[Jean-Luc]

The positive is that you're carrying a badass heavy weapon that makes things go boom and aaaargh!

[Vivisector 9999]

• Add a small bonus to reaction fire when the isHeavy conditions are met - the squaddie is clearly preparing himself for targets of opportunity.

• Make it slightly cheaper to fire aimed shots - the squaddie has got himself in the best position he can when not in motion.

• Make it slightly more expensive to rise from a kneeling state - this represents the additional bulk and weight of the weapon.

Making it harder to rise from kneeling with a heavy weapon sounds like a negative, rather than a positive (which is what you're trying to encourage).

I do like the idea of a reaction fire bonus, though. In real life, it's probably outright suicide to waltz in front of a prepared machine gun. Any sensible combatant would want to outflank your gunners if they can, or force them to move.

[Jean-Luc]

The problem with the reaction fire thing is that it would apply always, there's no way for the game to recognize when the MG is "prepared". Maybe the bonus could be scripted so it applies only when the unit is kneeling (and in cover maybe) which might be acceptable.

[Gauddlike]

The problem with the reaction fire thing is that it would apply always, there's no way for the game to recognize when the MG is "prepared". Maybe the bonus could be scripted so it applies only when the unit is kneeling (and in cover maybe) which might be acceptable.

Not entirely.

It would be assumed that the weapon is set up and ready whenever it is not under the effect of the heavy flag.

In other words if you haven't moved that turn you are prepared, if you have moved you aren't.

Adding the extra kneeling modifier to it makes sense as well, I would prefer if kneeling didn't count as moving for the heavy flag then though.

[Jean-Luc]

So the "heavy weapon" tag only triggers when the unit moves? I thought it was simply a passive weapon property that was always in effect.

[Gauddlike]

If it was always in effect then you would always get an accuracy penalty.

As you only get an accuracy penalty on the turn you move then it must be a triggered effect.

[GoodGuyEddy]

The positive is that they are really,really powerful, and that is all that is needed. The accuracy debuff is required for balance, otherwise the assault rifles, carbines and shotguns will all be obsolete if you can easily run and gun with a heavy.

[StellarRat]

The positive is that they are really,really powerful, and that is all that is needed. The accuracy debuff is required for balance, otherwise the assault rifles, carbines and shotguns will all be obsolete if you can easily run and gun with a heavy.

Actually, the accuracy "de-buff" is very realistic. Big weapons always need set-up time to work properly. Shooting an M-60 from the hip is super inaccurate. Same with rocket launchers, in fact, with rockets you can really hurt yourself if you don't setup properly, like burned, blinded, potentially dead.

[Max_Caine]

Just to recap on what isHeavy does, as Gauddlike says the Heavy tag (when set) applies an accuracy penalty (-30%) if the squaddie moved during the turn (this includes kneeling, which I personally believe should be exempt, but hey!). To see the difference, try setting up a guy with a precision rifle and compare shooting over the turn the squaddie doesn't move in comparison to the turn it does

GoodGuyEddy, it's reasonable to presume that the Heavy tag was added to help balance weapons, but I would say there are lots of ways already that a weapon can be balanced without having to apply an additional penalty. For example, the high cost of firing an MG discourages running and gunning. The high cost of reloading the single-shot rocket launcher, coupled with the sheer weight of the rockets it uses makes it highly unlikely a squaddie will get more than one shot off a turn, and makes the player think about making those shots count. In the light of pre-existing (and moddable) factors, the Heavy tag helps to define the style in which a weapon is to be used as much as to balance it. With that thought in mind, if the Heavy tag was more than a stick, if it had a few universally applicable carrots dangling off the end that encourage weapons tagged as "Heavy" to be used as Heavy weapons should, that would encourage use of Heavy weapons as they fit the vision and role they are intended.

If you take a closer look at the example positives and negatives that I presented, you'll notice they encourage the squaddie to stay still. There's no running and gunning involved.

Edited August 31, 2012 by Max_Caine

[GoodGuyEddy]

Actually, the accuracy "de-buff" is very realistic.

Did i say it isn't? No.

Big weapons always need set-up time to work properly.

Did i say they don't? No.

Shooting an M-60 from the hip is super inaccurate.

Did i say it is? No.

I said there is no reason to add any more pros to the heavy weapons because the fact that they are super powerful, you know...something the OP was kind of not happy enough with? If you remove the debuff then the normal weapon types become less useful, but if you add some more buffs(like the OP wants) then again heavies become too strong, bad for balance and battlefield role specialization.

StellarRat are you sure you were replying to me? 'Cause i have a difficulty seeing how that is a responce to what i said.

Same goes for Caine.

[StellarRat]

StellarRat are you sure you were replying to me? 'Cause i have a difficulty seeing how that is a responce to what i said.

Same goes for Caine.

Yes, I was. Your post made it sound like they just put the heavy tag on for strictly for play balance. I was just pointing out that it is more related to how the weapons actually operate. When you use terms like "buff" and "debuff", it starts to sound like something that just is done on a whim like some potion you take in WOW, not because that's how it is in real life. I guess your definition of "buff" and mine are a little different.

[Max_Caine]

Well, gosh, thank-you Eddy. I didn't know I wasn't "happy enough" that heavy weapons are "super powerful". I now stand corrected. But even with my head bowed in shame, I have to ask.... Did you actually read my posts? Because:

1) At no point in either post do I suggest removing the original penalty

2) In your original response (emphasis added):

The positive is that they are really,really powerful, and that is all that is needed. The accuracy debuff is required for balance, otherwise the assault rifles, carbines and shotguns will all be obsolete if you can easily run and gun with a heavy.

At no point anywhere in either of my posts (OP and response) do I indicate directly or indirectly methods for squaddies to run and gun with heavy weapons. I in fact suggest positives that only work when the squaddie stands (or kneels) completely still.

3) You deliberately and willfully ignore the fact there are other factors that go into balancing a weapon other than an accuracy penalty when fired on the move. (I list two, one for the MG, one for the rocket launcher).

4) I also list an additional penalty for using heavy weapons.

The impression I get, GoodGuyEddy is that you've read the title of my post, briefly scanned the content then run off the deep end screaming "OP! OP! OP!". READ IT AGAIN. SLOWLY.

[GoodGuyEddy]

At no point anywhere in either of my posts (OP and response) do I indicate directly or indirectly methods for squaddies to run and gun with heavy weapons.

I know , i said it would totally happen if you took out the debuff, or that heavies would be too good not to make them your backbone weapon type of choice if you slap some more positives on it.

I also list an additional penalty for using heavy weapons.

Why overcomplicate game mechanics? Just have them as powerfull guns that require setting up first(aka not moving before firing them).

The impression I get, GoodGuyEddy is that you've read the title of my post, briefly scanned the content then run off the deep end screaming "OP! OP! OP!".

Nyu-uh :3

Just said adding more stuff is hardly necessary. I just got mad when stellar rat replied with something that has nothing to do with what i said. It's infuriating when that happens. >_>

But if i hurt your feelings then: I'M SOWWWEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

[GoodGuyEddy]

Did i kill a thread again?

Echo...Echo...Echo

Whoops