Rockets and Grenades feel too weak

[Chthon]

Now hear me out. I'm not asking for them to get a huge buff to damage here. However it's our way to remember best when something goes wrong than when it goes right. All I can remember is how most of the time when I use rockets and grenades, the enemy is mostly unaffected. Even when grenades are thrown at my own soldiers wearing wolf armor, they are either unhurt or killed instantly at random.

How this applies to the gameplay though, I believe is how armor works and the extremely wide damage range applied to all weapons (+-50% IIRC) Here's a few examples:

Ballistic rifles do 30 damage, it could do as little as 15 or as much as 45 depending on the roll.

Incendiary rockets do 60 damage, it could do as little as 30, or as much as 90 depending on the roll.

Frag grenades do 50 damage, it could do as little as 25, or as much as 75 depending on the roll.

As you can see, the rockets or frag grenades could end up dealing less damage than the rifles depending on how lucky you get. I also assume that rockets are kinetic damage, since I can't find anything to suggest otherwise.

Lets take 3 enemies with 30, 40, and 50 armor for each type:

First enemy 30 armor:

Ballistic rifles have a 50% chance to deal damage, for an average damage per shot of 4 (equal damage value to armor)

Incendiary rockets have a 98.33% chance to deal damage, for an average damage per shot of 30 (double damage value to armor)

Frag grenades have a 88% chance to deal damage, for an average damage of 20.24 (2/3 more damage than armor)

Everything seems normal in this case. Target is hardened, rockets more often than not will deal damage, and frag grenades usually will deal damage. Always that chance of complete reduction though in all cases.

Second enemy 40 armor:

Ballistic rifles have a 16.67% chance to deal damage for an average damage of .5 damage a hit (3/4 damage to armor)

Rockets have a 83.33% chance to deal damage, for an average damage of 21.25 damage a hit (1.5x damage to armor)

Frag grenades have a 70% chance to deal damage, for an average damage of 12.6 damage a hit (1.25x damage to armor)

Here we raised the armor 33%, as expected ballistic rifles are all but useless at this point, doing a max of 5 damage. However what's surprising, is even though armor only increased 33%, Frag grenades chance to be absorbed is more than doubled, and rockets by 10x. This is due to the fact that a direct hit from either could be as little (or less) than the base damage of the rifle itself!

Third enemy with 50 armor:

Ballistic rifles fail to do damage (3/5 base damage to armor)

Rockets have a 66.67% chance to do damage, for an average damage of 13.67 damage a hit (1.2x damage to armor)

Frag grenades have a 50% chance to do damage, for an average of 6.5 damage a hit (damage equal to armor)

Here, the armor was raised only 25% more, frag grenades now do damage similar to the rifles on the first target as expected, however now they simply ignore 1/3 of all rockets hitting them as well, this is twice as many as the 40 armor target, and 20 times as many as the 30 armor target.

Because of how the damage ranges react with the creeping armor values, it's not enough to simply improve your tech with them. As you go up in tech, it can get worse. With weapons that you don't get much ammo for in the first place, having a bad hit can be devastating.

As such, I think rather than increasing the damage values on grenades and rockets, the damage range should be reduced a bit to make them more reliable in conditions where their base damage values exceed the target's armor. From the descriptions of the weapons, you aren't hitting just one point on the armor, but everywhere at once in an explosion. There are weak points in the armor as evidenced by the Pedia entries. These weak points will almost invariably be hit by such a blast if the target is within it.

Reducing grenade damage range from +- 50% to +-35%, and rocket damage range from +-50% to +-25% will help greatly in increasing the effectiveness of the weapons without making them so overpowered that they splat everything. Instead they will simply be much more likely to deal damage at all, and a more regular reliable amount of damage, which is something you need for a low ammo weapon.

[JoshuaNorthey]

All I know is that I was just on a terror mission against the up armor Androns and was down to a few men and little supplies and I threw an alenium grenade right at the Androns feet and it did 6 dmg. That was depressing. This was after I has shot him a bunch. I don't bring explosive grenades on missions because they are so rarely useful. Stun grenades meanwhile are amazing and kill huge numbers of non-Andron enemies.

[ViewThePhenom]

I think rockets/grenades are less about massive damage and more about AOE damage. In the case of rockets, that plus the removal of cover/terrain for different tactics.

[Dranak]

Explosives may be a tad weak, but you're using situations that don't exist in the game to make your argument here. There are 0 enemies with 50 armor, 2 enemies and 40 (Andron Elites and Heavy Drones), and only a handful with 30 armor. In fact Androns and medium/heavy drones are the only enemies with any amount of kinetic armor.

Rockets do Incendiary damage, which there are 0 enemies in the game with armor against. It also does quad damage against props, making them very good at destroying cover. So rockets will pretty much always do significantly more damage against anything, especially when armor is in play.

Grenades are kinetic, but the only enemies in the game with kinetic armor are Androns and Medium/Heavy Drones with values that range between 20 and 45. The first enemy with 30 armor (34 actually) is Andron Warrior, which a single one can appear on a Landing Ship but they don't really appear in numbers until Cruisers. With laser weapons that would make your first hit with a rifle do between 0 and 33 damage (Laser rifle base damage is 45). An Alenium grenade has a base damage of 75, so it would do at least 3 and up to 78, giving it a much higher average result than a rifle shot. The numbers shift even further towards grenades outperforming bullets as you go up in tech.

Armor values don't really "creep" as you mention. Over the course of the game, Andron armor values increase by 24 while weapon base damages increase substantially (rifles increase by 75, and grenades by 110) which actually makes armor much less relevant as the game goes on. Whether this is good or not may be debatable, but that's how the game works currently.

[Chthon]

Explosives may be a tad weak, but you're using situations that don't exist in the game to make your argument here. There are 0 enemies with 50 armor, 2 enemies and 40 (Andron Elites and Heavy Drones), and only a handful with 30 armor. In fact Androns and medium/heavy drones are the only enemies with any amount of kinetic armor.

Rockets do Incendiary damage, which there are 0 enemies in the game with armor against. It also does quad damage against props, making them very good at destroying cover. So rockets will pretty much always do significantly more damage against anything, especially when armor is in play.

Grenades are kinetic, but the only enemies in the game with kinetic armor are Androns and Medium/Heavy Drones with values that range between 20 and 45. The first enemy with 30 armor (34 actually) is Andron Warrior, which a single one can appear on a Landing Ship but they don't really appear in numbers until Cruisers. With laser weapons that would make your first hit with a rifle do between 0 and 33 damage (Laser rifle base damage is 45). An Alenium grenade has a base damage of 75, so it would do at least 3 and up to 78, giving it a much higher average result than a rifle shot. The numbers shift even further towards grenades outperforming bullets as you go up in tech.

Armor values don't really "creep" as you mention. Over the course of the game, Andron armor values increase by 24 while weapon base damages increase substantially (rifles increase by 75, and grenades by 110) which actually makes armor much less relevant as the game goes on. Whether this is good or not may be debatable, but that's how the game works currently.

That's not how it felt when I threw 6 plasma grenades, the third kind, at a Sebilian Warrior (whatever regens 96 hp a turn on normal) and even that failed to do more than he could regen in a single turn. I don't know what kind of armor he had, but he did absorb quite a few of the blasts with no damage.

[cybrbeast]

All I know is that I was just on a terror mission against the up armor Androns and was down to a few men and little supplies and I threw an alenium grenade right at the Androns feet and it did 6 dmg. That was depressing.

You need to bring electroshock grenades to face Androns, they are very effective.

[Chthon]

You need to bring electroshock grenades to face Androns, they are very effective.

It usually takes me 3-4 electroshocks to take out an andron, while 2-3 good laser hits take them out just fine. I honestly don't see much point in electroshock grenades.

[Gauddlike]

That's not how it felt when I threw 6 plasma grenades, the third kind, at a Sebilian Warrior (whatever regens 96 hp a turn on normal) and even that failed to do more than he could regen in a single turn. I don't know what kind of armor he had, but he did absorb quite a few of the blasts with no damage.

No Sebillian has any armour at all according to the files.

It sounds like you may just have been unlucky with the rng for damage variation that time.

Plasma grenade damage is 57.5 to 172.5.

If you got the lowest possible value on all 6 grenades that should have been 345 damage.

If he was behind cover then some of that damage would have been distributed to the cover.

The amount of damage absorbed by the cover depends on its stopping chance, assuming the system has not changed since its inception and the grenade lands in front of the cover.

In that case any cover with a stopping chance greater than around 30% would reduce your damage below the 96 health regen threshold you mentioned.

That would last until you destroyed their cover.

At that point they should be taking full damage again.

The first thing I would try would be to reduce the damage variation and see if that has an effect on the situation for you.

I don't really like the +/- 50% personally, I think it is too wide a range.

Try knocking it down to 20% or so and see if the problems persist.

Edited July 5, 2014 by Gauddlike

[Devencire]

It usually takes me 3-4 electroshocks to take out an andron, while 2-3 good laser hits take them out just fine. I honestly don't see much point in electroshock grenades.

They're handy as a jack-of-all-trades grenade. You can use them to land hits with rookies who can't aim straight, deal reasonable damage inside UFOs without destroying precious UFO contents, and stun aliens without the positioning nightmare that is the use of stun rods. Since grenades are unlikely to entirely miss, you can also use large numbers of them to guarantee a kill/stun, rather than taking lots of shots that could theoretically miss.

Certainly if you've got a clear and accurate enough laser shot, take it. If not, electroshocks are a fair option. They do have pretty tough competition in flashbangs, though - the main edge being that at least electroshocks do something to Androns.

[Jasmine Moldovia]

My only problem with rockets, is they take 2 hits to destroy a hedge, and can't hurt a shipping container... seriously why am I covering my solider with armor when the fricken vegetation has that kind of armor rating? and why not plate my vehicles in shipping containers if their so rocket proof.

[cybrbeast]

It usually takes me 3-4 electroshocks to take out an andron, while 2-3 good laser hits take them out just fine. I honestly don't see much point in electroshock grenades.

Maybe it was because I've only used them in the early game when Androns aren't that strong yet, but they were quite effective. Or maybe you are playing at a high difficulty level?

[dpelectric]

The first thing I would try would be to reduce the damage variation and see if that has an effect on the situation for you. I don't really like the +/- 50% personally, I think it is too wide a range. Try knocking it down to 20% or so and see if the problems persist.

This is a given for me.

In my experience, 2-3 plasma or fusion grenades will kill everything. All my troops (except Predator) carry 4-5-6 of them. Electroshocks work well against low-level robotic enemies, but lose their effectiveness against andron officers and elites.

Fun fact: the original X-Com had a damage range of 0-200%!

[Gauddlike]

I like the chance of a critical hit but also prefer more stable damage numbers in general.

Something like the D&D system so each weapon has a critical chance and a critical damage threat range of its own.

More ways to differentiate between weapons as well.

Lasers hit critical spots more often but plasmas do massive damage when they crit...

Bit off topic though.

I think the bigger the variance the worse the damage can appear, especially taking into account cover saves.

I prefer more control less rng in my fights.

[StellarRat]

My only problem with rockets, is they take 2 hits to destroy a hedge, and can't hurt a shipping container... seriously why am I covering my solider with armor when the fricken vegetation has that kind of armor rating? and why not plate my vehicles in shipping containers if their so rocket proof.

It's not a "hedge" it's a hedgerow. There's a big difference. A hedgerow is bunch of very mature large scrubs growing in mound of dirt. They are designed to act like a solid fence. Cars can't even get through them and tanks struggle. Go look it up.

[kabill]

Fun fact: the original X-Com had a damage range of 0-200%!

Except explosive weapons, as it happens, which had a damage range of 50-150% instead.

[Chthon]

It's not a "hedge" it's a hedgerow. There's a big difference. A hedgerow is bunch of very mature large scrubs growing in mound of dirt. They are designed to act like a solid fence. Cars can't even get through them and tanks struggle. Go look it up.

The hedges I have issues with are in the suburbia map, and they are even more resistant to explosives than the hedgerow you talk about.

[Chthon]

Except explosive weapons, as it happens, which had a damage range of 50-150% instead.

That's funny, in the original, they even felt that explosives needed to be more reliable even though everything was more unreliable across the board.

As far as accusations that my armor values are made up, they are. I don't go poking around the files for real values (yet) to avoid spoiling things for my game. Perhaps I should have used Xenonaut armor values as I saw them.

[Chthon]

Maybe it was because I've only used them in the early game when Androns aren't that strong yet, but they were quite effective. Or maybe you are playing at a high difficulty level?

Normal, however I didn't have them right away when I started facing Androns. Never got to try them on the starting ones.

[kabill]

That's funny, in the original, they even felt that explosives needed to be more reliable even though everything was more unreliable across the board.

It probably helps that the explosive weapons were significantly more powerful than in Xenonauts too, relative to the HP of units. Explosives actually had more variation than the 50-150% would suggest as well, as there was significant damage drop-off beyond the centre-tile.

I'm actually quite interesting in modding explosives to make them a bit better/more interesting than they are at the moment. Grenades particularly annoy me, because their small explosion radius basically makes them direct-fire weapons like guns are. What I'd quite like to do is give all explosives a much larger area of effect, but also increase damage drop-off and reduce accuracy as well. Ideally - for me - they'd be crowd-control/cover busting weapons rather than the precision-kill weapons they are at the moment.

(Also, re: the original point in the OP - it would be easy enough to make higher-tier explosives better against armour simply by giving them scaling armour mitigation.)

[Gauddlike]

As far as accusations that my armor values are made up, they are. I don't go poking around the files for real values (yet) to avoid spoiling things for my game. Perhaps I should have used Xenonaut armor values as I saw them.

It wasn't really an accusation that you made up the values just worth pointing out that the situation you used those examples in was not a valid in game example.

The current weapons are not balanced against the example you used so it was fair to point out the environment they were actually balanced for.

We all use examples that are not 100% precise in order to highlight issues we see so don't let that worry you too much

[Mathalor]

I used to equip one of my squad with a rocket launcher. In the original game The basic rocket launcher would clear out one side of a building, completely eliminating cover for the rest of my squad. In Xenonauts I feel lucky if I can remove one tile of wooden wall with the awful things. I don't bring rockets anymore. And I rarely use frag grenades.

Perhaps after some research they'll be worth while, but I'm not that far yet.

[Chefsbrian]

I find the Rocket Launcher a Situation weapon. Terror missions in particular. If your unlucky enough to hit a terror before you get Alenium explosives, then the rocket launcher is the single best way to deal with bunched Androns, even more so after.

All my rifles carry two hand grenades and a smoke grenade, and I put those grenades to excellent effect on troops. One grenade might not do it, but three grenades most certainly will.