Charon
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Posts posted by Charon
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24 minutes ago, Cynical said:
As for the discussion of "consistency vs. skill", consistency is skill. The end. Read the "An Aside on Skill" subheading here: https://kayin.moe/?p=936
Very informative article. Thank you for the read.
While i do enjoy the better posts in this thread they dont have anything to do with what this thread is about. That is about the falls and benefits of Save Scumming and Ironmann in Xenonauts/Xcom genre. And because of this i have to ask both of you to leave the thread. You can open up your own thread and continue your discussion there, and/or request for your posts to be transfered there.
Good luck.
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11 minutes ago, Edmon said:
I think that what you have written is extremely hostile but I don't think you understand just how hostile it sounds or how badly and confrontationally it is worded.
Every conversation is a confrontation. This is why i think you are living in wonderland. A conversation where there is nothing at stake is just small talk. If you truelly want to get a talk you necessarily have to have an oppinion, and in the best case you also need to be able to negotiate it. If you are just here for small talk, go somewhere else.
16 minutes ago, Edmon said:You write as if what you believe is absolutely correct, using a very strong english word like "proper" in the title, but then later say you are not "prediatory to other play", then say that only Ironman can develop high quality and correct skills for playing at the highest levels. Statements that attack people who don't play in that style and basically imply that they are lesser.
Like i said, this guide doesnt adhere to everybody. But it is also not meant for everybody. It is meant for the people who think they can profit from it. There is no language which is "inclusive" for everybody. A title with a hundred footnotes which say what it doesnt mean is just ridicoulus. People who understand will understand. And people who dont, won´t. The difference between them is education, knowledge and a proper attitude towards life and the shortcomings of any tool
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21 minutes ago, Edmon said:I was gaming since the very beginning, got my honours degree in it, was a professional in both video gaming and card gaming. So I've seen how words which you think mean a particular thing have changed totally over time to mean something else entirely. Yet, you talk in absolute terms at all times, as if every word has had a strict meaning and definition since the beginning. When addressing the audience or myself, you use hostile absolutes, which would naturally generate conflict read by any native English speaker.
Thats just word hairsplitting. You cannot invent words or a language which is inclusive for everyone. You are chasing a dream. The proper way is to know the limitations of language, and the use of it. Men talk differently among each other than women do. The proper way to behave is to know when to use which language. Normal people know that every word has its limitations, and that every tool has limitations. They dont try to invent a perfect language, but are simply humble.
25 minutes ago, Edmon said:Now you don't seem to accept any of my points at all, so I wanted to start with this one:
Thats what i said. What makes you think repeating what you said makes me accept it the second time ? But i already stated that the majority of things you say is wrong:
49 minutes ago, Charon said:I just think that the majority of your statements are too wrong to be discussed
29 minutes ago, Edmon said:Jagged Alliance 2 (1999)
Ironman mode: Able to save and reload at all times, except when in combat. Almost all games of this era, have similar "Ironman" modes. Any gamer who has been gaming for a long time, would understand typical Ironman to be this.
XCOM (2012)
Ironman mode: One save game, which is only saved when you quit the game. This is the modern Ironman, which plays much like MMO's and multiplayer games do.
So in the span of a decade, the exact same word has meant two totally different gameplay modes.
Infact, it is the case that the Jagged Alliance 2 meaning, was true up until the start of around the 2000 period, maybe somewhat later. However, at some point this definition changed and now it tends to mean a multiplayer like experience, which saving only possible when quitting the game if at all.
This is just an example of how the very concept has changed.If you want to fight the definition of a word you are in the wrong thread.
30 minutes ago, Edmon said:I am not even going into the deep end of what skills Ironman tests, which in the case of games with high RNG, can simply be your tolerance for repeating the same actions over and over until the RNG goes in your favour and you succeed. Which is hardly a measure of skill, but more one of persistance.
As I said, this is a design topic that is way deeper than it's ever given credit for, but Ironman does not by necessity make a game harder, deeper, more skillful, etc.
Imagine a simple dice game, where you must roll 18 on 3 dice to win and you can roll each dice individually.
In one game, we can save each time we get a 6 and the proceed to the next roll.
In the Ironman version, we must roll those 3x6's in a row or restart.
How is the Ironman version more skillful, how does it change my strategy in any way? How does it change my techique?
It doesn't, it just takes longer to win, because I must restart when I don't roll a 6. So it will take more time to get the 3 win conditions in a row, than individually.Im not claiming that bad RNG games dont exist, nor am i disputing that bad Ironmann games exist. But again you are in the wrong thread for it.
The example with the dices is just a bad game. Im sorry that you are playing bad games. And i also sorry that the gaming world has become less about gaming, and more about entertainment for you. But again, you are in the wrong thread for this discussion.
This guide is concretely about Xenonauts and about Ironmann only in this context. This is why its on the Xenonauts and Xenonauts reddit forum.
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52 minutes ago, Edmon said:
There is tons wrong with both what you've said here and your interpretation of what I've said, which seems to more be what you thought I've said than what I've actually said.
The issue here is that people can interpret it as such, unless my senses about how people read English with a western traditional value is completely off. Which i dont think it is. So regardless of whether what you said is intended as such or entirely different has no effect on the fact that an wide array of people will read it as such, thuse my answer addresses the issues which come up while somebody might read your text. Which again, is in my oppinion the majority of people.
52 minutes ago, Edmon said:But the fact that you simply sum up that I am entirely wrong and then call for a moderator to close the thread, I guess suggests that it's not a dialogue or debate you wanted. Instead you simply wish for people to accept your narrow definitions of how a game should be played, what makes a game hard, what Ironman and Save Scumming is and you wish to simply ignore how those terms and their meaning have changed over time, etc.
There is only so much bullshit i can take. Its not about discussion, its about A. your text is based upon a context which gaming is simply not. The unsaid word is more powerful than the said one. And so addressing the wonderland which your narrative is based upon is more important than what you actually had to say. And B. You misinterpret my words and state things which are simply, plainly wrong, and therfore make black into white, and white into black.
Here is your example:
52 minutes ago, Edmon said:Instead you simply wish for people to accept your narrow definitions of how a game should be played,
Like i already said, simply because i make 1 guide on how to properly play the game doesnt mean i invalidate all other ways. Which i stated. Which you didnt read. Here it is again:
1 hour ago, Charon said:Just because somebody makes 1 guide to a proper gameplay experience doesnt mean he becomes a predator to all other ways of playing the game
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52 minutes ago, Edmon said:Ironman is a test of consistency and often of time, not a test of skill.
See ? This is so untrue that i even wonder how you can say that without getting purple red in your face. Thats like saying poker is purely a game based on consistency, and has nothing to do with skill. Poker is a game based on consistent display of skill.
52 minutes ago, Edmon said:Ironman is not the be all end all of difficulty and can often be used to hide balance issues in game
Again, the unsaid word is stronger than the said one. Your narrative suggests anybody has an objective of hiding balance issues under the rug. That is mostly not the case, no game is balance issue free, and the goal of development is to make the game as interesting and engaging as possible, not as balance issue free as possible. Balance is important as well, but its not the primary goal. With this you end up with games which are not balance issue free, but nobody "hid" anything anywhere. It just so happened that the game came out this way, and i wouldnt contest any developer to have any agenda of hiding anything anywhere under what-not. The issue is mostly about time and money.
52 minutes ago, Edmon said:There is no such thing as a "proper" gameplay experience, there is the one you enjoy having, which is different for everyone. Your perferred way to play, does not necessarily make you a better player than someone who plays in a way that you do not approve of.
Ofcourse there is, if you have a concrete goal in mind. The goal of the guide is to enrich your experience, make you learn high quality skills fast, and to not waste your time learning skills. If you have such concrete goals there is definitely a finite approach towards that, and this guide suggests ONE of it. It is there to help and guide people.
Your statement of "everyone has a different approach" is true, but that doesnt help the people who concretely want advice on how to utilise their time on the game. In the same way that if somebody wants to learn how to cook the answer of "Everybody does it differently" is technically true, but doesnt help the trainee a single bit.
I just think that the majority of your statements are too wrong to be discussed ( Ironmann doesnt make the game harder ) and your view too different to have a common ground. This place is for people who want to concretely discuss how to enrich their gameplay experience, and how to utilise Ironmann ( where can you reload, where not ). You are simply in the wrong thread. Shoooo. Open your own thread for your oppinion
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I requested to lock the topic because this forum is a place for robust debate. Not drama. And there havent been any answers for a long time, and the rest of it is just somebody who disagrees with the proposed fundaments so hard ( Ironmann makes the game harder, and there are skills you can learn to deal with it ) that no debate is possible. You are like somebody who doesnt eat fish and goes into a fish restaurant
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Cheers
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18 hours ago, Edmon said:
The fact that using the save and load features provided in a game has somehow become known as "Scumming" and that this terminology has become accepted says it all.
You are misinformed. Save scumming is defined as the technique to evade RNG results and get the RNG results you desire by reloading.
18 hours ago, Edmon said:Honestly, I think the reason for this is invested interests and money. The games industry has been moving against saving and loading games for a long while now and will add and enforce Ironman as the "correct" way to play.
Havent seen this anywhere.
18 hours ago, Edmon said:Ironman doesn't make a game harder, it makes a game take longer. It helps drag things out, if you have to replay 20 times to get at all or most of a games content.
I think you are oblivious to the fact the we are only talking about Xenonauts, and XCOM games in general. Not any other genre.
Also a game is not a movie, the satisfaction of overcoming new challenges is what makes the game so noteworthy.
18 hours ago, Edmon said:The fact is, you either have the skills to win the game, or you don't.
That implies that nobody is able to learn anything in a game. Im happy to announce that humanity is still able to increase their skills and broaden their horizon by playing video games.
18 hours ago, Edmon said:If you finished the game once, saving and loading all the while, it means that you could in theory have done it without saving and loading, it would have simply taken many (or even hundreds, depending on your ability to memorize the right moves and techniques) attempts. What has been done once, could be memorized and repeated.
This is impossible, because you dont have all the information. XCOM is not a puzzle genre.
Sentences like these make me wonder if you even played one game in the XCOM genre.
18 hours ago, Edmon said:It makes sense to drill the skills Ironman style if your going to be a competitive multiplayer gamer, naturally. In single player though, I don't see the appeal.
Ironmann has its own appeall in single player. You see the game in a completely new way, learn new techniques to deal with uncertainties and learn how to calculate and deal with risks and failures. Thats the same thrill and satisfaction you get out of playing poker.
18 hours ago, Edmon said:I actually just completed Xenonauts on insane difficulty, I saved before each mission and then played it to the end. If my win was not perfect, I started from the beginning and played the whole mission again until it was.
Congrats.
7 hours ago, Edmon said:In your given example, if you die to the reaper, then you still lost the game.
Guys ... is this craziness ? You dont lose the game because you lose one soldier to a reaper.
7 hours ago, Edmon said:Starting a game from the beginning over and over again is how a lot of modern games extend little content into a full game.
Again, a game is not a movie. Aquiring the skills necessary to beat a game is the satisfaction. Mastering a game and all its RNG odds is where the enjoyment comes from. Something which might not be for you.
7 hours ago, Edmon said:Just look at a game like "they are billions", the map you start on basically determines if you win or not (I'm saying this as one of the few with the 800% brutal victory achievement) and Ironman just forces you to restart over and over so you don't realize that is the case
FFS. The game is just in early access. You cant say anything about the balance.
And even apart from that, bad map rolls are what makes an RNG map creation appealing. The randonmess, the unpredictability. In professional AOE2 games player can call a reroll in the first 2 minutes if they feel like the RNG rolled too bad in their favour, with a limited reroll count for both players. Random maps are not a bad thing, but it obviously has its limitations. Additional tools are implemented to control the worse side of it.
7 hours ago, Edmon said:Saving "scumming" was a thing, but it was about reloading to get better rolls on dice-roll-type combat. However, I have always seen this as a problem of game design. If your game is so random, that a different roll or sequence of rolls dramtically and totally changes the outcome, irrespective of the players strategy... then it is simply too random.
Play Chess if you dont like RNG. There 100% of your actions are skill based. Welcome to XCOM, baby. Why do all these people like to gamble so much ? Its outcome is little determined by strategy or tactic
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Anyway, a lot of readers didnt seem to get what this guide was about, so let me quote from the guide itself.
QuoteAs a closing word you can say that people who play on the appropriate difficulty simply want to use their time as efficient as possible, experience and handle new situations as fast and as well as possible, as well as aquire the best skills for that as fast as possible. The skills you aquire this way is something you can transpose on other situations in your life, which makes you handle your life better, more confident and richer in experience.
Its about enriching your gameplay experience as well as learn high quality skills in your life.
People also seem to overlook this paragraph:
QuoteThe other side of save-scumming is experimenting.
I think experimenting with a game is deeply necessary and is the state where you have the most fun. A game wouldnt be a game if you couldnt play around with it. So i am fully supportative of keeping different saves and reloading for experimentation purposes.
Everything which has been stated wrongly by @Edmon
- Save Scumming has been termed like this for a long time. It hints at the depriving aspects of said techniques, but is used carefully for each appropriate situation. The proper way to behave in this world is to learn features of a tool and the time to use it, instead of making the world infant-proof. The quality of a knife lies in the fact that it has a sharp edge, and not in the fact that every knife in the world is made so dull that nobody can hurt themself with it.
- Ironman makes the game harder.
- Ironman gives you a new experience.
- People are actually able to learn something in their life.
- Random map creation is a good thing. Too high difficulties is part of the creation process. It can be mitigated by various other tools. Spoonfeeding everybody their own difficulty and Safe Zones are a bad thing. You gotta learn your limitations to see real improvement in your life.
- Not every game has to be a game for everybody. Some can be niche games. In fact making games for every taste in the world enriches the experience and diversity more than only standart cost for everybody.
- The guide was about the XCOM genre, and Xenonauts especial. Its not about RPGs. This is why its on the Xenonauts reddit page.
Just because somebody makes 1 guide to a proper gameplay experience doesnt mean he becomes a predator to all other ways of playing the game
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Apart from that its a lot of simply wrong facts, out-of-context statements and a lot of emotion hype.
Cheers
@Max_Caine please lock the thread.
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4 hours ago, PALU said:
I haven't seen the original Valkyrie design, that's correct.
Its just 4 flares on the ground to mark the entry zone. Nothing else. No walls to protect you. No decision in your exit zone, no protection from fire all across the map, no cool droppods. If you think thats fun than imagine landing naked in the middle of a terror site.
4 hours ago, PALU said:I don't like random drop pod placement, both because it's annoying and because it goes against the selling point of the Valkyrie of allowing you to arrange deployment, which ought to extend to the pods, at least to the extent of them not being placed in the way of your exits (I realize it probably wouldn't be reasonable to allow the player to actually arrange the pods, and it would probably get old fast if it was). If it was my choice I'd use a static pod deployment of either the corners or, if the area is large enough, 3 tiles in a row along each side with possible vehicle exits on both sides (requires an inner area of 9*9).
Hm, but since you dont know what your immediate environment is you cant know what your exits are either way, no ? Sometimes you land in the north corner and have exit SE and SW, sometime you have a wall at SE, making everything else your exit. The preview window of sorting your soldiers doesnt allow you to view your environment.
I personally think that a randomised starting position is better, increases the replayability and keeps the interest and challenge for the player fresh and new. But this might take time to realise, as 5 combat zones are not enough to get an endless feeling for the missions.
If you like a static design you can go into maps/dropships/valkyrie and choose one to your liking and delete the rest. This way you can try out static design vs a dynamic one.
4 hours ago, PALU said:Minor bug encountered: The manufacturing description for the Katana Mk-2 claims a Katana Mk-1 is produced, but the correct item is manufactured.
Fixed.
4 hours ago, PALU said:Related oddity: There's a "manufacturing" option generated: "Praetor Fleet Leader RE" (under Dissection Phase 4 Caesan & Wraith), which doesn't seem to produce anything at all (XXDESCRIPTIONXX). I think it was generated from the Autopsy research (but I'm keeping the old researches when upgrading to keep the campaign, so it might have been fixed).
Actually, there is a manufacture option for the Base, Terror and Fleet Praetor. I removed the unlocking of the manufactures from the research entries right now. Fixed.
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3 minutes ago, thethirteenth1 said:
Oops, not autopsy, the one thats done on an alive one. Don't have the game open right now; is it called analysis?
Than you are propably talking about the research previews. Yeh, they won´t get done. It was originally sfarrelys work, and we added some new stuff after he left, so those entries won´t be done.
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4 minutes ago, PALU said:
- All of the drop areas have been in the SE corner of the map, closer to the southern end than the Eastern. To the south it's just enough to get a vehicle out. I have no problem with it being predictable, though.
We dont really have an influence on where the valkyre spawnpoints are. Those were made by the mapmakers of XCE.
6 minutes ago, PALU said:- I'm not too happy with the drop pod locations inside the area: My first attempt tried to get my mech out to the north, but for some reason it wasn't possible, as I think a pod blocked the way somehow, despite having had crew open 3 "doors" which should be wide enough, the mech refused to move to the tiles vacated by the 3 "workers". I'd like it to be possible to get a vehicle out in any direction. It's also a bit annoying you have to use soldiers to open "doors" to let the vehicle out, as it can't "open" or smash them itself.
One of the major points i wanted to reach with the new design is that you cant get your vehicle out any direction you want to, unless you shoot down the pods. The randomness of the 23 maps should provide a unique approach to every mission.
That vehicles cant open doors is just a vanilla restriction.10 minutes ago, PALU said:- I also had an issue with a wraith that somehow managed to teleport to a position where I couldn't attack it from the SE (probably due to a pod to the east side of it), leaving only a very narrow attack angle (it would probably have been wider if the "door" to the NW had been opened, in addition to the ones to the W and to the SW). However, moving into position and find you can't fire at the enemy for unclear reasons isn't exactly fun.
Yes, droppods are very good cover. For you, but for your enemy as well.
I think you never saw the original valkyrie design ?
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@PALUSince you are one of the few people so far ahead, whats your oppinion on the new randomised valkyrie droppod area ?
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18 hours ago, thethirteenth1 said:
I've found my way back to this mod after a long time away (Like .96 I think?) I must have learned something because things are going a lot smoother with less save scumming!
<3
Maybe its because we improved on the overall gameplay ? How do you like the additional options in the installer ?
18 hours ago, thethirteenth1 said:Small Note: Facehugger Autopsy still has XXDescriptionXX
Im pretty sure that you cant get anything that would identify as a Facehugger Corpse in the game. You can only get them alive.
18 hours ago, thethirteenth1 said:Also, what / where is the soldier sort button, and what does it do? I've installed the latest .10 unofficial patch, but don't see it on the soldier equip screen.
It sorts ... soldiers. You can choose the order of your soldiers with it. Thats a definite plus when you have more than 16 soldiers in a base and are under a base attack. The game takes the dropship crew + the rest of the soldiers following in a chronological order. So if your best horse is at the top of list but at 32% hp, you can sort him out of the combat readiness.
18 hours ago, thethirteenth1 said:It's amazing watching this mod grow over the years!
PAW ! ><
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59 minutes ago, thethirteenth1 said:
...why did this medium ship have TERROR CARRIER escorts... ._.
(Phase 1, NG+1)Chance for that is 10%. Its there to force alien bases upon the player if they dont take it out while landing.
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6 hours ago, Mr. Mister said:
Unrelated: it might only be possible in Easy and using the AI-nerfing module, but I love it when a farmer soloes a sebillian by suprlocking it turn after turn. Or when a xenodrone walks into a shack turbed killbox and gets mauled down by three farmers; it was out of my sight after he entered, so you can inagine the situation when I engered it afterwards expecting a different kind of massacre.
Dont worry, that happens on all difficulty levels. I mean i have never seen a farmer solo a sebillian on ng+2, but drones and other stuff.
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6 hours ago, PALU said:
I've had shock rockets splat targets. In fact, I stopped using shock rockets after that. One rocket wasn't sufficient to take out a Sebillian terror unit at the time, while a second rocket splatted them. I think I've had the same issue with EMP rockets, so yes, good changes.
While it is true that a conscious unit made unconscious with a shock rocket generated a splashed asset, they still count as captured afterwards. The point was more about that items on the ground including already unconscious units would get destroyed afterwards, which ofcourse shouldnt be the point for shock equipment.
EMP change is self explanatory.
I hope with this we see an increased use of EMP and shock charges all around.
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11 minutes ago, Svinedrengen said: Åh man, is this what I think it is ? Please tell me it is.
It is.
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2 hours ago, TheJournier said:
how does you mod order look?
can you screen shot it? thanks.
My suggestion: clean reinstal, no non-XCE mods, and delete your AppData\Roaming\Goldhawk Interactive\Xenonauts\internal\scripts folder.
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WiP
UNOFFICIAL
updated X-Division 1.00.10
Notes:
- X-Divison has gone the step to replace vanilla files. There has been an original file added for every replaced one in case you want to deinstall the mod. In case of doubt make a reinstall of the game or verify game integrity through steam.
- You only need to download and install the latest Patch avaialble, it contains all prior fixes as well.
- The .01 to .10 patch is NOT savegame compatible. If you want to make it savegame compatible you need to make a backup of your researches.xml, run the installer, and immediately copy your backup over the new file again. You will miss out on the fixed researches but you can continue the campaign.
- As a basic rule, never patch during Ground Combat
Installation:
- The Base for this patch has to be version 1.00.00 or higher. This update is not available for versions lower than 1.00.00 .
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Download the X-Division 1.00.10 Update:
https://mega.nz/#!hdpxQY7Z!8Pq8V6WNn4oKmkDJRUn0v3fd9O4A9r61oRXp6lhTJXM
Link
( MD5: 5f1614fddb9153103832d5f971908e30 ) - Deactivate your ANTIVIRUS/UAC program(s), it can intervene with the installation. As soon as the installation finishes you can activate it again.
- Start the executable provided in the file. Follow the instruction of the installer
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After you have used the installer there is no need to change ANYTHING anymore, everything has been taken care of, including scripts, modloader priority, and everything else you may think of. The only time you might want to change something is if you are activating/deactivating No Airgame or change the soldier models. Enjoy .
Changelog:
Dunno, i changed a lot. These are the things i can remember:
- Fixed some bugs around the Roborex
- Roborex explosion on death no longer causes overdamage
- Roborex explosion radius decreased from 6 to 4.5
- Halfed kinetic armour for semi-shield roboreaper. Their weak point should now be weaker
- Halfed energy armour for melee roboreapers. Their weak point should now be weaker
- added mitigation to human stun gas
- added one loading tip
- improved the AI of Drones a bit
- most importantly added X-Divison Palu's Shining Xenopedia to the game
- 7 new categories for the soldier equipment screen
- I think i also added the latest Monument IV map by Svinedrengen to the map pool
- new mod: Nerf The AI: The aliens have less sightrange, deal 20% less damage and have 10% lower stats.
- new mod: X-Divison Don't Die On Me ! :If your soldier doesnt blow up, takes a minigun point blank or gets left behind he WILL survive the mission.
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new mod: X-Divison Easy Airgame: Did you ever wanted to try out the manual combat but were put off by the difficulty ? Look no further, this is what you need. UFOs have 50% less hp, while your aircraft are 20% faster and have a 20% further range. Additionally the refuel, rearm, repair and recovery rate are 30% faster.
Only TOGGLE this during a Geoscape save.
The Xenopedia page doesnt correctly display UFO hp values with this. Its 37.5% for the lowest difficulty and 50% for all other difficulties of the displayed hp values. - new mod: X-Divison Slower Invasion: The Invasion escalates 25% slower
- new mod: Empower Facehuggers: This will improve the AI of facehuggers, but as a side effect they will also be able to attack vehicles. Ofcourse this is not intended gameplay which is why it isnt in the base version. If you want to give facehuggers their intelligence back while having to drive your vehicles cautiously around this is for you.
- appended unobtainable andron terror unit loot to appropriate robodog/roboreaper units
- new feature: AP Damage: MAIM/SHOCK damage that reduces TUs for the next turn.
- revised Shock and Electron weaponry
- fixed the installer with the help of @Mr. Mister
- fixed some bugs
- Increased frag grenade damage from 50 to 70
- Increased frag rocket damage from 90 to 110
- EMP charges and rockets no longer cause overdamage
- Shock rockets no longer cause overdamage
- Soldier Equipment Screen gained a Soldier Sort button
- decreased Endgame research time in accordance with the latest diminishing returns formula
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4 hours ago, PALU said:
Just a nit pick, but the official formula results in 199% for 2 scientists, not 198%, and so would result in an efficiency of "100 - (applied scientists - 1) / 2" .
Fixed.
4 hours ago, PALU said:Not that it explains the increasing X factor (and pulls in the opposite direction)... It's like real life (although much more benign), in that the more people you add to a task, the more of the work gets applied to coordination and less to actual work, and finally you have to add management on top of that, which results in even more of the time the ones actually doing the work has to be spent meeting the report demands of management rather than actually performing productive work.
Sure, but the point is that applying more scientist is worse than what the official formula suggests.
4 hours ago, PALU said:With the workshop I've only compared the estimated times to perform the tasks, but not the actual time it took. The estimates indicate there's no efficiency loss, but are the estimates correct?
Tested this once with 60 man hours and 60 engineers. It took exactly 24 hours to complete.
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Just confirmed that diminishing returns is a thing for scientists. It loosely works as the formula describes it, that is total efficiency equals 100 - ((applied scientists - 1) / 2). But in reality there seems to be an ever increasing number of inefficiency the more scientist you apply to a project. So in reality it is 100 - ((applied scientists - 1) / 2 + X). With 20 scientists X is 0.4%, while with 70 scientists X is 16%. @Solver said the Nano workshop bonus gets applied ontop of everything after the calculation, but thats untested. So you can loosely formulate it as (100 - ((applied scientists - 1) / 2 + X)) * 1.5.
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@PALU All Ancient Weapons are literally bogus, some are too strong some way too weak. Their data is literally from the ALpha build, over 3 years ago, and doesnt factor in any of the changes which have been made seen since. They are ancient - code wise.
So we are going to make a completely new and revised Ancient weapon set, up from scratch. The only prerequesite they have is that they should be more powerful than other weapons.
So far its:
- Range of 50
- Lower TU% useage than other weapons
So give me some nice ideas what should be so special about them, with the code we have in mind.
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https://www.reddit.com/r/Xenonauts/comments/ad3bvs/xdivision_numbers_and_mechanics/
QuoteAlien Ticker Speed (I assume this is alien development speed?)
Indeed.QuoteIs it correct that Normal in gameconfig = NG, Veteran = NG+1, Superhuman/Insane = NG+2 and Easy is not used?
Easy = NG. Normal = NG+1 Veteran=NG+2 Superhuman=-. Superhuman is "officially" not supported.QuoteSome weapons (burst, sniper, others?) have a suppression radius, while others need to hit to cause suppression (is this true?).
Looked into the weapons_gc.xml and basically all weapons have at least suppressionRadius="1". What is radius="1" ? It is a cross shaped and affects 5 tiles ( center + 4 directions ). Now Xenonauts works with a 3x3 system, where every tile is made out of 3x3x? blocks. If you affect 1 block of a tile, you affect the whole tile. So a a bullet, or the suppression hitbox of a bullet only has to graze 1 block of a tile to affect it.QuoteThe manual writes that in Vanilla, suppression threshold = bravery. Can anyone confirm which is correct? Charon sticks with TU being a factor (in addition to morale), this requires testing.
I ran some tests and TU really doesnt seem to be a factor. Other than that it is starting suppression threshold = current moral. Moral can go over 100 in X-Division, so keep that in mind.[4496] Soldier (miko 'hercules' ) hit suppression:[4496] armour damage reduction (149) = max(0, armour resistance (169) - armour mitigation (20))[4496] damage (94) = max(0, damage (95) * armour damage modifier (99))[4496] suppression score (185) - damage (94) = suppression score (91)[4496] morale change by (-0.940) = damage (94) * moraleRate (-0.010)[4496] morale (185) = max(100, min(0, morale (185) + value (0))) (with boost = 193) (soldier: miko 'hercules' )185 was the current moral for ´hercules´ and this seems to get taken for the suppression threshold.Second turn, then suppression:[4496] Soldier (miko 'hercules' ) hit suppression:[4496] armour damage reduction (142) = max(0, armour resistance (162) - armour mitigation (20))[4496] damage (94) = max(0, damage (95) * armour damage modifier (99))[4496] suppression score (138) - damage (94) = suppression score (44)[4496] morale change by (-0.940) = damage (94) * moraleRate (-0.010)[4496] morale (185) = max(100, min(0, morale (185) + value (0))) (with boost = 193) (soldier: miko 'hercules' )138 ( this turns suppression threshold ) - 91 ( last turns suppression threshold ) = 47 suppression threshold recovery. Which equals to 25,4054054% of the 185 moral threshold. So the manual is correct about the 25% recovery.Killed own soldier > reduced subjects moral from 185 to 165. Current suppression threshold is 44. Next turn > suppression.[4496] Soldier (miko 'hercules' ) hit suppression:[4496] armour damage reduction (142) = max(0, armour resistance (162) - armour mitigation (20))[4496] damage (94) = max(0, damage (95) * armour damage modifier (99))[4496] suppression score (91) - damage (94) = suppression score (-3) <= 0 => unit is suppressed[4496] Trying to play animation crouch_ENY[4496] morale change by (-0.940) = damage (94) * moraleRate (-0.010)[4496] morale (165) = max(100, min(0, morale (165) + value (0))) (with boost = 173) (soldier: miko 'hercules' )91 - 44 = 47. So the recovery rate doesnt seem to change even though the moral clearly changed. So the 25% of regeneration of the suppression threshold seems to be a constant set at the beginning of the mission, and doesnt change. The higher your moral your start your mission with is, the higher the suppression regeneration.Next test: clean state, killing 3 xenonauts to lower moral: starting moral 185, now 125.[4496] Soldier (miko 'hercules' ) hit suppression:[4496] armour damage reduction (155) = max(0, armour resistance (175) - armour mitigation (20))[4496] damage (94) = max(0, damage (95) * armour damage modifier (99))[4496] suppression score (185) - damage (94) = suppression score (91)[4496] morale change by (-0.940) = damage (94) * moraleRate (-0.010)[4496] morale (125) = max(100, min(0, morale (125) + value (0))) (with boost = 133) (soldier: miko 'hercules' )Suppression score = 185. So even when your moral gets lowered lower than your suppression threshold during your mission, it doesnt affect your suppression threshold. And with that propably also not the regeneration of suppression.QuoteBravery: +1 point gained per panic event
+ Suppression by alien fire + each successfull psionic fear attack ( other psionic abilities are untested )QuoteStrength: Charon writes that a logarithmic scale is used, does that overwrite what's in gameconfig?
The whole strenght gain system is completely bugged, and only hardcoders can take a look at it, and they prefer not to. @Solver
Answered ?QuoteAre there other difficulty changes, such as AI behaviour coding? Or does the AI behave exactly the same regardless of difficulty level?
I think you have to realise that the AI is not a robot programmed to repeat behaviour, its a robot programmed to repeat results. They act in the same way than a human when making decisions.When an alien unit gets less TU through the difficulty modifiers it may come to the conclusion that its usual tactics are no longer effective enough for the TU it has. So it may switch them out on the fly, maybe to a more campy playstyle. Where it once though it was save to rush into a command room it may now decide it simply doesnt have the right tools to achieve the proper average results. When the difficulty lowers the damage of alien weapons a unit may simply decide to not take a shot, because giving away its position for less damage is simply - worse.No matter the difficulty, and no matter how hard nerfed the stats are, the AI still has the same task to do. And because they cant change their stats, they will have to change their behaviour. Up to a point where the aliens literally dont have a single useful action anymore.
You can see that when an alien behaves "odd" or just "stands around". Fight, Flight or Freeze Response. Anyone ? -
12 minutes ago, PALU said:
Do we? I don't think the weapon did 240 damage, or anywhere near it.
Yes we do, i suppose. If your andron/praetor did have any of the bogus weapons, and the aiprops says it has a propability for that, than we are talking about this:
<SingleShot sound="Weapon Laser Precision Single" delay="0.6" suppressionValue="6" suppressionRadius="1"> <Set1 ap="33" accuracy="50" /> <Ammo name="ammo.Caeliumtube" type="chemical" damage="120" stunDamage="0" mitigation="15" >
Direwolf armour has
<Resistance kinetic="75" energy="95" chemical="45" incendiary="45" />
So with a 50% damage roll the weapon can do 60 energy damage, which can be described as pretty minor and even multiple shots like this are blocked by the Direwolf armour.
I think you are missing the point, you have to look at the Ancient Weapons in the weapons_gc file. Otherwise you cant understand the problem. Its ok if you dont want to, just drop me a note.
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23 minutes ago, PALU said:
Before we have an idea of where things go wrong it's probably too early to figure out how to fix it.
Wut ? We know where it went wrong. One weapon can do 1575 damage, and the other 240. Look into the weapons_gc.xml.
So the question now would be, what do we want the Ancient weapons to be ? @PALU@Dagar@Svinedrengen@Phoenix1x+52
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Just now, Dagar said:
I'm definitely not far enough into the game to say anything about that. I'd say it's a good thing that you can tell what the enemy can do by experience and their appearance. May give you an edge if you are a keen observer.
Other solutions: The composition of the UFO crews is somewhat random, but there are certain ratios it follows. Maybe the same can be done for weapons? A few strong ones with loads of normal ones for the soldier type aliens, and weaker ones for NCs?
We are explicitely talking about the Praetor here, and the discrepancy that 1 loadout can do 1575 damage, while the other can do 240.
Don't you know there is a war going on?
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