Edmon

Greetings! I've been wanting to do a campaign for a while, but Chris said it was probably best to hold off until the game was more complete. Well, with Milestone 4 the game seemed to be mostly in a complete and playable state and so I started a Commander Campaign. The campaign will be played Ironman (enforced by recording, rather than the tickbox, just because enforced Ironman on an Early Access game is risking errors that break the save) and many, many soldiers are going to die. So many. Quite a few have died already... lol. If that interests you, you can find my campaign here: I also have a lot (and I mean a lot) of feedback - but to avoid spoilers - I will be posting it later on in the feedback thread. Regards, Edmon

Nintendo keep their best games at full price pretty much forever and also pretty much accept only sales outlets that will only charge them about 10% - 15% per copy. So the strategy of going for only "quality" sales definitely works. It is not about preventing sales or not having sales, it's about preventing a market flood of your product at a discount price point, or under terms under which you do not make a good enough profit to make sequels, hire more staff, etc. There are limited people who will buy your game, based on it's type and their interests. You can't get infinite sales just because you cut the price. Hell, look at all the free games out there, does the whole planet own them because they are free? Of course not. There is nothing "Fad" about it, it is common strategy for some of the biggest game companies in the world.

Your entire post is conjecture. Where as, releasing on steam being a loss in profits of catagory 1 customers is a hard fact. As well as, the corresponding "bad sales" in all other catagories. Steam is like youtube, if you are a nobody, don't expect steam/youtube to do anything for you. You are not about to appear on the front page or in any of the listings even for a moment, unless someone is already looking for you. In that case, they'll find you on humble, gog, epic, etc. People like steam because everything is in one place, because it's a monoploy. But while it may have been good for the developers it allowed on its platform in the past. In this age, of the steam greenlight, its not going to do anything for you as a developer. Except cost you money which you have to suck up because your fans "Have all their other games on steam, etc", basically the things being said about FP right now on that reddit.

This line of thinking is not correct, there is everything to gain from locking out a store if they take a massive cut of your product's cost. Think of the 3 major catagories of people who will buy your game: 1) Fans, they will buy your game no matter what. 2) Strategy game lovers, will buy your game if they know about it and if the price is reasonable. 3) Discount purchasers, will buy your game, but only on a sale or if they can get a good deal. You'll lose 18% on every copy of your game, if your fans buy it on steam, instead of some other store. They aren't about to buy it twice (usually). If the price is the same everywhere, they might buy it on steam simply because it's the supermonopoly and they already have steam installed. Strategy game lovers, there is some benefit in having steam, since it's advertising your game for you. But I think the amount steam advertises is seriously oversold these days. There are so many games to be advertised on that store front and steam themselves know this has value, I am sure deals are going on because the "biggest" games, I.E. the ones by massive developers/companies are always on the frontpage. So I doubt Chris here could afford that kind of steam benefit. Discount purchasers will always buy the cheapest copy they can find and have patience... if there is a massive discount on steam due to a steam sale... and steam is still taking 30%... what is left for you? Once they have their discount copy, they won't buy another one. So, you can see that having your game on steam, can cost you pretty much everywhere where you can make a sale. The idea that digital copies have no cost is patiently false. Once someone has a copy, they will not buy a second, so that is a potential sale you will never get, ever. A lot of bad sales, may be objectively worse than fewer good sales, where you get more of the profit.

Reddit is what you make of it. If reddit is a hammer, then is it not better to be a construction worker and get something out of it? Rather than just saying "it's a dumpster fire" and dismissing the value you can sometimes find there? I hope you two stop bickering, I've not seen a playground fight for a good few decades now and your bringing back bad memories :P. I kid, I kid... maybe...

I mean, you have to say that publically because you work with steam, Chris :P. Joking(?) aside, your perspective on the matter is very interesting on the matter of steam keys. However, usually anon-surveys of developers opinions on the matter are highly negative. https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2019-01-24-just-6-percent-of-devs-say-steam-earns-its-30-percent-cut-survey You would be in the 6% if this data is accurate.

The Epic store is much better than the steam one, because it fucks the poor developer a whole lot less. Epic take a 12% cut and if you use their unreal engine, you normally owe them a 5% cut but they waive it if you sell your game on their store. 12% means 12%, in otherwords. Steam take a soul crushing 30% cut of every game sale, they make more money off of finished games than most developers do. Their extreme monoploy status, basically means that they strangle the life out of all but the biggest developers, by taking all the money they might have used to expand their offices, hire staff, etc. I have always hated steam for this reason, but it seems swept under the carpet a lot that they take 30% and also do sales which the developer effectively also has to pay for.

This thread just reminded me of this so much:

What about little animated mini events like this? (Shamelessly photoshopped by me using Advance wars assets :P)

Yeah that is fair enough, this is a bit of a tangent to the original topic though, which is the one of having an NPC presence to balance out the early game and mid-game. This discussion of base placement came about largely because of theorycrafting about how to give you control over the NPC positioning and then working from there. Trying to create that "part of a war" feeling which then shifts into "you are leading the war". You could also do things like have countries that hate you, intercept your interceptors and/or otherwise move against you. Which could be an interesting dymanic to the early game. What I want to avoid at all costs is the one thing I hated about XCOM1 and Xenonauts1. UFO spawns are totally random and their movement is totally random. They could in theory, all appear where you are not and/or move away from your slower interceptors. Effectively putting you in a death spirial at the beginning of the game which is unavoidable. This issue continues to be a pest until you get a 2nd and 3rd base established, every UFO could appear in America say, while you are in Europe and IndoChina. You just have to suck it up, which sucks, because it's pure RNG. The NPC bases at least partially solve this issue in the early game, since they can do work in the regions you are not early on, giving you time to get established (unless you take the more gamey route of ensuring the UFO's or at least some of them, spawn in reach). It is absolutely possible to lose XCOM1 and Xenonauts1 with the player having no agency in preventing it, if you are unlucky enough.

If this is the case, just allow the player to decide the exact locations of the pre-existing bases. I.E., have them place 5 bases, one for each major region and then finally decide on which one to control.

I sat down and really thought about it and here is what I came up with: "Tension" phase: At the start of the game, a player doesn't have to build a base out of the ether, but acquires a pre-existing one. This is basically what happens in the first XCOM, but instead of you picking the exact location, you choose from various bases on the map that are owned by your various benefactors. Each base can be different and can affect the opening of the game (note these are just ideas and may not be balanced): 1) American Base(s): Great in general with a lot of equipment, facilities, etc, but setting up shop in America increases tensions with everyone else, due to their pre-existing power level and the idea this is another ploy for American control. Start with additional tension in Russia, China and South America. 2) European base(s): More workshop, research focused with acceptable military capability. Diplomatic, starting less tension with most regions, except Russia. Easy mode. 3) Russian bases(s): Extra soldiers, aircraft and military equipment, increased tension with America. Cheaper second base as long as it's also in Russia. 4) Africa/South Americas base(s): Bases are sparse, with only the basics but the base is inexpensive to run if nothing else. Radar quality is poor with only 50% of normal coverage. This radar will have to be demolished and replaced with advanced (normal) radar if you choose to start with one of these bases. Hard Mode. 5) Indonesia/China base(s): The standard XCOM base, with nothing changed. This allows tweaking of starting positions and equipment, for a more diverse beginning. After a base is picked: NPC bases, do what they can to defend themselves, attack aliens, etc. However, expect them to be wiped out if left unsupported which will increase tensions. Player has the choice to buy existing bases from NPC's or build their own, as they desire. Buying a base will mean buying EVERYTHING in it, whatever that may be, so could be an expensive decision rather than making your own base and customising it yourself. Or you could just make it that these bases are NPC forever and the xenonauts will have to make extra ones as "normal". The level of interactiveness with the NPC's is really something that needs to be thought about, but I imagine them being targets for aliens after a time. Maybe a player can transfer things to NPC bases, like aircraft and tanks, so they can better defend themselves. Maybe just aircraft, making NPC bases automatic alien hunting airfields. Much like what is done in Xenonauts1 but more automated. NPC's you are friendly with may ask you if you want to attack crashed UFOs or not. Ones that don't might just airstrike them into paste. Friendly ones could share money, unfriendly or tense ones might not. Giving them aircraft maybe reduces tension... as an additional incentive... Just some thoughts. Once the tension phase is over, the NPC role could largely just be in the "automated airfield" varity and/or as targets for aliens.

I wonder if you could also make rotational play more interesting. Maybe you get X% EXP in combat and then you get a similar X% bonus when training back at base. I guess the idea here being that you learn lessons in battle and then when you return to training, you train the things which you think will best improve your ability to win fights against aliens. This would make battle - rest - battle more powerful / optimal without the stick that is the stress system... Just some more thoughts :).

I think that what you have written is extremely hostile but I don't think you understand just how hostile it sounds or how badly and confrontationally it is worded. You write as if what you believe is absolutely correct, using a very strong english word like "proper" in the title, but then later say you are not "prediatory to other play", then say that only Ironman can develop high quality and correct skills for playing at the highest levels. Statements that attack people who don't play in that style and basically imply that they are lesser. You attack what I say as too wrong even for your consideration and that only debate that, effectively, agrees with you is robust debate worth engaging in. I was gaming since the very beginning, got my honours degree in it, was a professional in both video gaming and card gaming. So I've seen how words which you think mean a particular thing have changed totally over time to mean something else entirely. Yet, you talk in absolute terms at all times, as if every word has had a strict meaning and definition since the beginning. When addressing the audience or myself, you use hostile absolutes, which would naturally generate conflict read by any native English speaker. Now you don't seem to accept any of my points at all, so I wanted to start with this one: Here is some concrete examples just about how the word Ironman has changed over time and has changed as a gameplay concept. Jagged Alliance 2 (1999) Ironman mode: Able to save and reload at all times, except when in combat. Almost all games of this era, have similar "Ironman" modes. Any gamer who has been gaming for a long time, would understand typical Ironman to be this. XCOM (2012) Ironman mode: One save game, which is only saved when you quit the game. This is the modern Ironman, which plays much like MMO's and multiplayer games do. So in the span of a decade, the exact same word has meant two totally different gameplay modes. Infact, it is the case that the Jagged Alliance 2 meaning, was true up until the start of around the 2000 period, maybe somewhat later. However, at some point this definition changed and now it tends to mean a multiplayer like experience, which saving only possible when quitting the game if at all. This is just an example of how the very concept has changed. I am not even going into the deep end of what skills Ironman tests, which in the case of games with high RNG, can simply be your tolerance for repeating the same actions over and over until the RNG goes in your favour and you succeed. Which is hardly a measure of skill, but more one of persistance. As I said, this is a design topic that is way deeper than it's ever given credit for, but Ironman does not by necessity make a game harder, deeper, more skillful, etc. Imagine a simple dice game, where you must roll 18 on 3 dice to win and you can roll each dice individually. In one game, we can save each time we get a 6 and the proceed to the next roll. In the Ironman version, we must roll those 3x6's in a row or restart. How is the Ironman version more skillful, how does it change my strategy in any way? How does it change my techique? It doesn't, it just takes longer to win, because I must restart when I don't roll a 6. So it will take more time to get the 3 win conditions in a row, than individually.

There is tons wrong with both what you've said here and your interpretation of what I've said, which seems to more be what you thought I've said than what I've actually said. But the fact that you simply sum up that I am entirely wrong and then call for a moderator to close the thread, I guess suggests that it's not a dialogue or debate you wanted. Instead you simply wish for people to accept your narrow definitions of how a game should be played, what makes a game hard, what Ironman and Save Scumming is and you wish to simply ignore how those terms and their meaning have changed over time, etc. Which is a shame. Ironman is a test of consistency and often of time, not a test of skill. Player A may win 30 missions exceptionally and lose 1 horrendously, another player B may consistently just lose 1 guy in every mission but always no more than that. Ironman perfers that second type of player, the consistent one, but not necessarily the brillant one that is rarely inconsistent. Ironman cares only about that one loss, which can typically end your game. Yet that first player, in a multiplayer setting, is likely to win vastly more often. This subject has far more depth than it's ever given credit for. It can be just as difficult if not more so, to pull off a perfect game, even with old school Ironman (save and reload before and after missions only) than it can be to just win Ironman while taking losses. Different skills are tested and people have different strengths. Ironman is not the be all end all of difficulty and can often be used to hide balance issues in game (or that a particular instance of a game was impossible from the start, something which exploring all the possibilities via save/load would reveal). There is no such thing as a "proper" gameplay experience, there is the one you enjoy having, which is different for everyone. Your perferred way to play, does not necessarily make you a better player than someone who plays in a way that you do not approve of.