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Incorrect mentions of real technology in the Xenopedia


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Hello,

I've just seen a few let's play Xenonauts and there are a few inaccuracies when referring to real life technology on the Xenopedia. These are minor things but if you have time look at them.

1. The description of the Iceland incident mentions that F-4 Phantoms tried to shoot it. In 1958 the F-4 Phantom hadn't progressed past a few prototypes phase and it was only selected on that year by the US Navy after a competition between it and an upgraded version of the F-8 Crusader.

2. It is also mentioned that ICBMs were used to try to shoot down the UFO. Well, the first ICBM deployed by the US was the Atlas missile, which started to be deployed in 1959. In 1958 the US had nuclear missiles but they were IRBMs (Intermediate Range Ballistic Missiles).

3. The Avalanche air-to-air missile is mentioned as a 'torpedo', which is known to be an underwater weapon.

4. There was actually a real F-17 aircraft called Cobra, which competed with the F-16 and lost in the competition to supply the USAF with a lightweight fighter. The F-17 was later adopted by the US Navy and become the F-18 Hornet.

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That information was all classified; it only technically came to public knowledge at later dates, and since Xenonauts is intended as a conglomerate of the most advanced technology from all nations and rapidly fields prototypes developed by extremely versatile scientists and engineers, it's possible they had simply had access to said prototypes long before they were even publicly acknowledged by the government, just like the Iceland incident itself!

Also this is before the real invention of the F-17, so the next one made from alien tech was just classified as such in order.

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That information was all classified; it only technically came to public knowledge at later dates, and since Xenonauts is intended as a conglomerate of the most advanced technology from all nations and rapidly fields prototypes developed by extremely versatile scientists and engineers, it's possible they had simply had access to said prototypes long before they were even publicly acknowledged by the government, just like the Iceland incident itself!

They - who are you talking about?

If by They you mean Xenonauts, they were created after Iceland, so how could they have access to ICBMs and Phantom prototypes before the incident?

Otherwise, if you mean regular NATO forces, then ICBMs and Phantoms weren't proven technology and were not available in the numbers mentioned, 'squadrons', which usually implies about 12-18 aircraft per squadron, or the half a dozen ICBMs launched.

The F-17 can be explained through your logic but these aspects are incoherent and inaccurate, since the point of narrative divergence between History and the game's storyline is the Iceland incident.

And another plot hole: how could the Soviets detect missiles being launched in 1958? There were no satellites available then that could detect missile launches in the USA (Sputnik had just been launched in 1957) and no radar in the world could detect something as far as the distance between the Soviet Union and Iceland. Since the nuclear explosions took place on an uninhabited part of Iceland, were the Soviets simply lucky to have a KGB agent casually strolling on the Icelandic countryside that saw the explosions and by chance was carrying a long range radio with him? And in that case, why did the Soviets thought that the nuclear attack was aimed at them, if it took place on Iceland?

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Honestly, I think you're overthinking it a little. It's a videogame, as long as it's internally consistent, things happen to make things work and result in an enjoyable and dramatic experience for the player.

This story sets the background and some players do pay attention to these kind of details. One option is to stay out of explanations/background, like the original X-Com did since they are minor details. But if you are adding such a big background story with so many details, you better do it right.

And these are the kind of details that make me decide whether to buy a game or not.

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And another plot hole: how could the Soviets detect missiles being launched in 1958? There were no satellites available then that could detect missile launches in the USA (Sputnik had just been launched in 1957) and no radar in the world could detect something as far as the distance between the Soviet Union and Iceland. Since the nuclear explosions took place on an uninhabited part of Iceland, were the Soviets simply lucky to have a KGB agent casually strolling on the Icelandic countryside that saw the explosions and by chance was carrying a long range radio with him? And in that case, why did the Soviets thought that the nuclear attack was aimed at them, if it took place on Iceland?

Would the spies need to be in Iceland, as opposed to whatever office was authorised to launch the attack?

Also, there's no necessary reason why the "point of narrative divergence" is necessarily the Iceland incident. That's the point at which such divergence is explicated, but there's no necessary reason why real history should be canonical before that. Arguing this is, of course, a post-hoc justification, but in all honesty it doesn't really matter either way.

EDIT: If it offends you sufficiently, you could always buy the game and modify the lore accordingly :) (buy the game).

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I saw the title of this thread and thought "Yes! Someone else who is as bothered as I am by the incorrect descriptions of plasma and gravitons in the research reports!" Turns out you were talking about something completely different. :(

I guess we all notice the details that correspond to our areas of expertise. Maybe my boyfriend's right that I really shouldn't be bothered by inaccurate physics in a game about aliens.

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I suspect that it's better for the game overall to call them ICBM's a year early than it would be to say it was an IRBM and have most people think it's a typo. Besides, there's really not that much of a difference.

Calling the heavier, long-range missiles torpedos simplifies things by making it really easy to tell which one is which.

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Would the spies need to be in Iceland, as opposed to whatever office was authorised to launch the attack?

That's a possibility but I wonder why no one had that idea during the Cold War. Instead of buying all those multi-billion expensive sats and radars, just have the KGB infiltrate the White House or the Pentagon with the agent being able to warn the Kremlin the minute the decision to launch the nukes is made. They'd sure have saved a lot of money ;)

there's no necessary reason why real history should be canonical before that

If it's not canonical then it is not real history.

I guess we all notice the details that correspond to our areas of expertise. Maybe my boyfriend's right that I really shouldn't be bothered by inaccurate physics in a game about aliens.

Your boyfriend's wrong, IMO. Being good at something means paying attention to details.

I suspect that it's better for the game overall to call them ICBM's a year early than it would be to say it was an IRBM and have most people think it's a typo. Besides, there's really not that much of a difference.

Even better: call it simply a 'nuclear missile' and instead of F-4s, call them 'fighter aircraft'. Because if you're simply using those terms to try to look smart, well, make sure you know what you're talking about, because someone will know.

Calling the heavier, long-range missiles torpedos simplifies things by making it really easy to tell which one is which.

I'd thought calling one missile Sidewinder and the other Avalanche would make the difference between both simple. At least it worked on the original game with the Stingray/Avalanche. Not to mention confusing a missile with a 'torpedo' is about the same as calling an aircraft a 'submarine'.

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Even better: call it simply a 'nuclear missile' and instead of F-4s, call them 'fighter aircraft'. Because if you're simply using those terms to try to look smart, well, make sure you know what you're talking about, because someone will know.

You're right, Hobbes. Xenonauts' attempts at realism are inconsistent and not really well-researched. It irks me from time to time, but it's overall a good game and I'd recommend you give it a shot if you enjoyed X-COM.

PS: You're Hobbes from StrategyCore, right? I'm ShadowBlade there. :P

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That's a possibility but I wonder why no one had that idea during the Cold War. Instead of buying all those multi-billion expensive sats and radars, just have the KGB infiltrate the White House or the Pentagon with the agent being able to warn the Kremlin the minute the decision to launch the nukes is made. They'd sure have saved a lot of money ;)

How do you know no one did have that idea? Or indeed that it never happened? Just because they invested in other solutions doesn't mean they didn't (try to) use spies as well. In fact, it seems sensible to have as many defenses as one can muster, so that when one inevitably fails you have a number of safeguards. So evidence of other solutions is hardly evidence against the plausibility of what I suggested.

If it's not canonical then it is not real history.

You've missed my point. There's no reason why real history needs to be canonical for the game. In fact, I think you've established that's not the case!

Your boyfriend's wrong, IMO. Being good at something means paying attention to details.

Ironic though it is to write this, given the context: paying attention to details isn't the same as being bothered by them.

I'd thought calling one missile Sidewinder and the other Avalanche would make the difference between both simple. At least it worked on the original game with the Stingray/Avalanche. Not to mention confusing a missile with a 'torpedo' is about the same as calling an aircraft a 'submarine'.

The class of weapon to which the Avalanche belongs continues to use the term "torpedo" all the way through. In fact, at at least two of the weapon tiers, the words "missile" and "torpedo" are the only thing that differentiate between the two types (e.g. Alenium Missile and Alenium Torpedo). Thus, while the term might not make a lot of sense in its current context if you're a stickler for that kind of thing, it is actually doing some work and couldn't just be scrapped without replacing it with something else/using a different naming convention.

Edited by kabill
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Hobbes, I can say with some certainty that Chris isn't going to change one single word in the Xenopedia that isn't a typo or outdated game-related information. From the Work Tracker:

As I've mentioned before, please don't report scientific inaccuracies. I'm sure that there's plenty of them in the Xenopedia but it's too late in development to start rewriting the technobabble!

Now, the wording refers specifically to scientific inaccuracies, as a number of the more scientifically minded among the forum have tried to reconcile such things as plasma guns by forming real-world explanations for them. Chris had this to say about another thread, similar to this one, which addressed anti-gravity (Tobbzn! This was your thread!)

I have not read all of your post because it's a trifle long to be easily absorbable, however getting scientifically realistic technobabble is a bit beyond our means given the size of the team and my research consists largely of surfing Wikipedia. There's also a significant number of projects to get right and I'm afraid I can't rewrite them every time someone finds an inaccuracy in the material. I just don't have the time.

Simply put, while it irks you that these things are there, you're not going to convince Chris to change it. Nor will you convince him that you could write a better article and submit it to him for inclusion in the vanilla game. From later in the same thread.

The science could be outsourced there, but I'm not sure the writing could be. I think the writing is actually more important than the science and I think it's important to maintain stylistic consistency, so if we did get the community involved with writing the research projects then I'd still have to spend a long time editing them for writing style. Plus I just want to get the Xenopedia finished for V19 Stable and leave it at that so the translators can get to work properly on the game prior to release.

Your best bet is going to be to re-write it and present it as a mod. those people who care about such things will download it. Those people who don't, won't.

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I'd argue that the problem of trying to be perfectly accurate in a work of fiction is that if you actually achieved that, you'd be writing about real life, rendering it non-fiction :P There are so many hand-waves available around the science and the history details, the easiest of which of course is that there are some other points of divergence in the Xenonauts world, other than, you know, the hyper-realistic portrayal of an alien force trying to destroy humanity! Or maybe the reports were written by a political analyst who wanted to look smart and made a few mistakes because of it. Nowhere is it claimed that the Xenopedia was written by a %100 reliable source. As for the alien science, and this will piss off the science people I'm sure, we're talking about a hyper-advanced alien force with UFOs. Maybe they know something about science, something we currently consider impossible, that we don't?

In the end though, I personally find all the material internally consistent. The writing is very well done and highly entertaining to read. The game itself is fantastic. If you are really considering not buying it because an IRBM was incorrectly called an ICBM, some general decided to name a class of air-to-air missile a torpedo for whatever reason (apparently a torpedo was originally a floating mine, so it's hardly a fixed term anyway) and a couple of fighters were incorrectly named then you're depriving yourself of a wonderful experience. BTW, I don't want it to sound like I'm being overly critical. I can't stand Prometheus because a biologist couldn't imagine that a hissing snake like creature could be dangerous and thus should be touched!

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As you have figured it out by now I love History and military affairs and some of the stuff I love to read is alternate history, usually how Napoleon/Confederates/Axis could have won if they had taken different decisions at certain moments. And usually those fiction works are written by authors who know their stuff, so up until that moment when things start deviating from what really happened, things are as History has recorded them. And the closest they are, the better the reader does what it called 'suspension of disbelief' and accepts the new fictionalized reality.

Or in simple terms, it's easier to accept a lie when it is mixed with true facts. But if you spot the lie (or the inaccuracy) right on, then you'll be less inclined to believe what come afterwards and that breaks game immersion.

And that exchange of messages with the game developer is also a bit revealing:

"I think the writing is actually more important than the science and I think it's important to maintain stylistic consistency, so if we did get the community involved with writing the research projects then I'd still have to spend a long time editing them for writing style."

To me form and content are equally as important. And that shouldn't be his job as the lead developer - he should have a specific writer/editor to check that stuff.

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To me form and content are equally as important. And that shouldn't be his job as the lead developer - he should have a specific writer/editor to check that stuff.

In principle, I'm not sure anyone would disagree. But you're overlooking the fact that this costs money, and GH isn't a large studio flush with resources. Quite reasonably, Chris has thrown everything he can into making sure the game is fun and as bug-free as possible. Hiring writers and editors for stuff that over 99% of people won't care about or even notice doesn't seem like a good investment in comparison.

(Although, there is the novella. Not sure whether that was payed for or not).

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I can't stand Prometheus because a biologist couldn't imagine that a hissing snake like creature could be dangerous and thus should be touched!

Or the mohawk geologist get lost in a tunnel system despite his fancy auto-mapping gadget.

(And he was afraid to enter a room first and then entered it later to sleep over the storm...gaaah)

Or the group of "professional specialist" in the beginning calling the two archaeologists "you two kids found something in a cave" and displaying their true professionalism...ah what stupid sh**.

Or the auto-doc that cannot treat women, although it was installed for the boss-women in that ship (she said so)...gnnngngn.

Or the woman with the stapled-shut stomach (severed muscles still) can run and jump and exercise pretty well only with some grunting directly after it....sigh.

Or the android tipping some alien stuff in a drink to see what happens to one of the archaeologists ("some things start small") and when something actually happend to that guy and subsequent to the girl too, he just completely forgets about it.....*cry in pain*.

Or the Engineer-alien who gets all berserk when the people talked to him, although his group left a lot of "come to us"- signs everywhere on our planet....damn illogical.

Or....ok I stop here, before I eat up my table in rage.

Yeah, I am still a huge Alien-fan, and was hoping for a good prequel to the alien-saga, but was totally disappointed about stupid dierector errors (or left-outs, as some more scenes might have saved something).

@Hobbes

I understand what you mean by this incorrectnesses that you see in the game, and that they are bugging you. But as kabil pretty good layed out is the indie-game aspect and the money thing to do this. Goldhawk either does not have a technology expert or he/she is busy with something more important to the game.

The description already in the game is fulfilling its duty, to bring in some flavour and some background story. The tiny flaws (I know for you they are kind of major) require more work than necessary. I guess the 80-20-rule (or Pareto principle) applies her too: 80% of some planned work is done with 20% of the effort, and the last 20% of work will require 80% of effort.

My feeling is the "work" for this more than 80% done. I can live with it.

For me immersion is pretty good, technology is understandable and the historical setting works for me too.

And last but not least: It is a game!

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Well, just did a little digging and there's a consistency error regarding what's mentioned in the official site and the 1.0 version of the game.

The official site says here that the fighters involved were F-8s and that the nukes launched were Thor missiles (IRBMs), and both are correct for 1958. So someone was paying attention to those details. :)

But then you get a consistency problem since the Xenopedia calls the fighters as F-4s on the F-17 entry and ICBMs on the Iceland Incident entry and the site calls them something different.

Also, the site also mentions also that the Soviets had detected the US launching planes from radar bases in Cuba and Europe (thus partly answering the previous question I asked of how they knew about the situation but not explaining how they detected the nuclear explosions). Regarding Europe that is correct but in 1958 Fidel Castro's revolutionaries were still fighting the Cuban government and the Soviets only moved to Cuba in 1960 so that mention has no historical basis.

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Mmm, the reference to the F-4s is indeed out of date. But 99% of people won't know what an IRBM is and I'm hardly going to take the time to explain it when I've got about 4 paragraphs the explain the entire backstory of the game. Most people understand the term ICBM though.

The points you raise are valid, but ultimately most people couldn't care less if the history is a year out or not so getting every detail in the historical setting exactly right isn't a priority. It probably wouldn't take *that* long, but there's hundreds of other similar tasks I could do instead that affect more people's enjoyment of the game. Ultimately its a question of resource management.

A specialist editor for historical accuracy would be nice in an ideal world, but I think you may need to reconsider the sort of resources available to an indie team making a $20 game (developer time included).

If we were making a game for Slytherine / Matrix and selling it for $60 we'd probably pay more attention to that sort of thing. Xenonauts isn't a wargame, though - it's a strategy game with a lot of abstraction and a veneer of setting on top.

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Hobbes, some contemplation about nuke about nuke detection.

Nuclear explosion make:

a) very distinguish electromagnetic impulse, detectable worldwide,

b) strong seismic wave, detectable worldwide too.

These data, metered with several detectors, allows not only detect a fact of explosion but map its ground point accurate to several kilometers.

Fact of rocket launching was not only thing USSR wants-to-know. Another point of interest was nuclear tests.

I'm positively sure that in late 50's USSR knows exact coordinates of every boom on Nevada test site even before official announcing.

And similarly, USA knows coordinates of every boom in Semipalatinsk.

Taking this into account, we have a picture (from Soviet point of view):

1) USSR knows of nuke explosion took place in (or over) Iceland.

2) USSR knows USSR did not bomb Iceland.

3) Version "it's test" - implausible: too small territory, too close to populated area

4) Version "America decided to remove Iceland from map, without cause" - too crazy to consider

5) A-bombs have several safety locks, unautorized explosion is very improbable, even if bomb accidentally falls from (or with) plane, but:

6) when you launch A-bomb, you unlock it safety locks.

Conclusion: warhead was ready-ed and primed, but warhead carreir (rocket or plane, no matter) meet an accident somewhere over Iceland.

Question: where this launched american atomic warhead was destined to, considering world political situation?

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Mmm, the reference to the F-4s is indeed out of date. But 99% of people won't know what an IRBM is and I'm hardly going to take the time to explain it when I've got about 4 paragraphs the explain the entire backstory of the game. Most people understand the term ICBM though.

The points you raise are valid, but ultimately most people couldn't care less if the history is a year out or not so getting every detail in the historical setting exactly right isn't a priority. It probably wouldn't take *that* long, but there's hundreds of other similar tasks I could do instead that affect more people's enjoyment of the game. Ultimately its a question of resource management.

A specialist editor for historical accuracy would be nice in an ideal world, but I think you may need to reconsider the sort of resources available to an indie team making a $20 game (developer time included).

If we were making a game for Slytherine / Matrix and selling it for $60 we'd probably pay more attention to that sort of thing. Xenonauts isn't a wargame, though - it's a strategy game with a lot of abstraction and a veneer of setting on top.

Thanks for the answer and interest in your part.

I've just got a look at the Xenopedia entries (at least those concerned with the points I mentioned above) on the thread that deals with translations and it doesn't look that much work fixing these little details, specially since it involves only changing the .xml file. I understand that you don't have time to go through this but why don't you ask the community to help? It would be simply a matter of correcting what's there and not adding new stuff and I agree there's no need to get technical and explain what an IRBM is and someone else could be in charge of fixing that issue.

Hobbes, some contemplation about nuke about nuke detection.

Nuclear explosion make:

a) very distinguish electromagnetic impulse, detectable worldwide,

The biggest factor that determines the EMP is altitude and the range of its effects is determined by the visual horizon, which is limited by the curvature of the Earth. The higher the explosion, the bigger the range. For a nuke to cause an EMP effect capable of affecting the entire continental United States it would need to be detonated 400-500km above the Earth over Kansas. F-8s and similar fighter craft have a max operating altitude of about 18 km, which would be the maximum altitude of the UFO. And for smaller blasts you either would need to have close by aerial/ground assets to detect the explosion or you'd need satellites to detect the explosion's double flash/EMP pulse, which aren't available in 1958.

b) strong seismic wave, detectable worldwide too.

These data, metered with several detectors, allows not only detect a fact of explosion but map its ground point accurate to several kilometers.

True but nuclear explosions provoke minor earthquakes when they happen underground, which was not the case during Iceland. On underground tests the energy of the blast is absorbed by the Earth, which provokes the quake, while on above ground explosions the energy expands through the atmosphere.

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I just love such posts, cuz they always tend to tell nonsense from both arguing sides.

Sorry for rude intro, here's right answer to author and point for those, who is defending position of game, they enjoy.

First of all, Xenonauts is a GAME. Mix of art and media. That said, three's always distinctive ways to describe, what type of art it is (realism, post-modernism and so on. Thought, for games it's more simple - fiction). As matter of fact, practically, all games, I repeat, ALL GAMES are fiction. As one of reply mentioned here, there's never 100% truth, as all truth you know is what you know and decide for yourself personally. That said, you never can be sure, that information you bare is ultimate truth, simply because there's no ultimate truth for everyone.

So that leads to fact, that there's no historical realism at all, and in matter of fiction, as all games are, it is very flexible way to change everything as you want.

If author of post still don't understand, how to distinct fiction from reality, which is not possible, as history is still something, what is told by others, not something you see by yourself. Just look at Relic game COH:Opposing Fronts. Personally I never played game itself, but I enjoyed original COH. But in several countries, COH:OF is banned, due to "wrong history". Which, AGAIN, is absurd, as there's no right history. Each and everyone knows what they were told of, or what they found, but source still isn't reliable in 100% cases.

Here's the conclusion and advice for dear author of post: Remember, that all the information around you is fiction. Nothing is real (Sound pretty cultist way -.-). But what is real, is that what you experienced by yourself personally. That said, it's good to know, that something differs in this world from your own experience. Better, if you mix both of those experiences and achieve something in middle - new experience. From that, you should understand, that you never should bother of details in every matter. Just because details you are willing see, is only personal truth.

And games never are truth in any way. That's why people tend to enjoy that fiction, because it mixes with own experience, creating new exiting experience.

Sorry for all this charade, just trying bring out to everyone here, that details we love so much, are still details, which you could simply explain by yourself. Again - for yourself. You shouldn't be bothered to bring out your own truth to others. Everyone who want it, will experience it in own way anyway ;).

Damn my psychology (

p.s. As well, there's simple way, how to classify Xenonauts lore. It's called - Alternative History Universe.

Edited by Anderty
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Thanks for the answer and interest in your part.

I've just got a look at the Xenopedia entries (at least those concerned with the points I mentioned above) on the thread that deals with translations and it doesn't look that much work fixing these little details, specially since it involves only changing the .xml file. I understand that you don't have time to go through this but why don't you ask the community to help? It would be simply a matter of correcting what's there and not adding new stuff and I agree there's no need to get technical and explain what an IRBM is and someone else could be in charge of fixing that issue.

Indeed. That's actually what happened with the story on the website regarding the F4 / F8 thing, although apparently I forgot to update the Xenopedia too. Sadly you came along after we'd locked down the release version else I'd just make the simple change. It'll probably get changed if we do another update.

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(snip)

This post is just a mess. "This is just a game" and "This is fiction" are monumental non-arguments liberally used to handwave just about anything and dismiss any piece of criticism. Might as well just add sparkling rainbow unicorns to every game and work of fiction if nothing matters and there's no implicit rules anywhere.

That said, Chris understood Hobbes' point, and that's all that matters.

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