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Realism Issues Center: Lets make this game make more sense


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Gravitons are spin-2 bosons, and bosons are their own anti-particles. If you can get two of them to interact with each other, they self-annihilate. Of course that would be a neat trick if they are truly massless, unlike the photon which has a virtual mass. Anyway, compared to other aspects of the game (e.g. lighting, AI, physics, transparencies, render order), this is not much of an issue.

As for how an Invasion would really be carried out: You obviously have not played the game until the end. The reason for the limited invasion is well explained, and is plausible (which was a very pleasant surprise in this type of game - especially compared to the Firaxis nonsensical ending). Since this is not the modding section I will not drop any spoilers.

This is why I keep saying that yeah, it's fictional subject matter, but it's a fantastical situation being explained in a plausible way (which is basically the underpinning of any fiction; you're writing fiction, sure, but if nothing makes sense, it's just going to raise eyebrows and can't really be taken seriously as the story you're trying to tell); we could at least do the same with the human stuff that has existed for decades in the more or less the form we see in game.

The aliens are fictional, of course, but the rest of what we see in the story is real-world stuff; the idea's not to subsume the author's intent, just to say "Hey, you know X doesn't work like Y right? It actually works like Z." We of course don't have much ground to say how the alien crap works, as it's entirely fictional - author's free and clear there. The rest of the stuff - the writers' understanding of how human tech worked at the time, how fighters work, how ground troops' equipment is explained - that's all real-world stuff that could do with at least some better explanation, even if there's no changing how it works in-game.

Edited by EchoFourDelta
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The rest of the stuff - the writers' understanding of how human tech worked at the time, how fighters work, how ground troops' equipment is explained - that's all real-world stuff that could do with at least some better explanation, even if there's no changing how it works in-game.

I have to agree: suspending one's disbelief is much harder when it comes to real world stuff.

So, why do we have so many women in the game? ;)

Edit: This is not supposed to be a rant. Alien invaders don't hassle me, female soldiers do neither. And I thoroughly appreciate the lack of boob plate in this game.

Edited by dd.d
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I was mentioning E-2 Hawkeyes and other AWACS craft earlier in the thread. Those are good at steering missiles.
These guiding others' missiles capabilities are pretty new and were nowhere near present in the time period of the game. I'm not sure if they're even proven abilities, being cutting edge stuff. Theoretically, it's possible at least, but whether the DoD has actually gotten the kinks out and made it a workable system is another thing.

Also note that AWACS are large sitting ducks without a considerable amount of offensive aircraft to give them a safety bubble. Given the nature of engagements in this game, they would not be viable.

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So, lets get some things straight:

  1. The lack of personal armor in the beginning of the game is not an issue provided the aircraft aren't described as having armor.
    (This means that the armor description is correct, and thus doesn't need to be changed, provided the aircraft description does.)
  2. To increase survivability the aircraft wouldn't have armor, they'd have multiple redundant systems in place (which equates to the same thing; namely, more survivability).
    (This would need to be changed. Simple fix; don't mention armor, but mention adding redundant systems to keep the bird flying even after sustaining heavy damage.)
  3. The Xenonaut aircraft have tons of fuel, so a significant portion of the aircraft is taken up by fuel tanks.
    (This is stated already, so it wouldn't need to be changed. It could be altered to say that fuel tanks take up some hardpoints.)
  4. The Xenonauts cannot rely on AWACs or spotter planes for their work; the planes don't exist in the game anyway, and even if they did they'd need an escort up to protect them from air superiority UFOs. Obviously there aren't magical AWACs flying around whenever we want to track something.
    It's obvious that the Xenonaut aircraft is tracking the UFO itself (you can even see it's own little sensor range on the geoscape). Thus, it must be tracking them somehow, either with enhanced radar (remember the UFOs have stealth-like capabilities, so a standard radar package from the 70's probably wouldn't work as well as we'd need), special Xeno-sensor radiation detectors (the UFOs and alien bases both emit radiation), or a combination of the two (most likely). The sensors are effective to all 360Ëš, meaning that they couldn't be in the nose cone alone, but are more probably under the wings (thus pointing all around the aircraft horizontally to find UFOs and down to find alien bases.)
    The explanation of ground based radar assisting in the tracking works fine until you leave the radar range, get out over open water, or fly over certain uninhabited parts of the world. Plus, how does the ground based radar (or the AWACs, for that matter) explanation for the Xenonaut aircraft tracking the enemy account for the Xenonaut aircraft detecting alien bases? It makes much more sense that each plane is carrying a sensor package designed specifically for hunting down UFOs and bases.
  5. They also need to have special Xeno-sensors that detect alien bases. The bases emit that same radiation, don't they? That's how we are able to find them despite them being buried underground.

So, how does this sound?

Change the Condor description to include something like,

"We've altered the standard F-16 in a myriad of ways, the most significant being the following: expanded fuel tanks, multiple redundant systems to allow the aircraft to remain flyable even after sustaining heavy damage, and an incredibly complex array of sensors.

We cannot rely on non-Xenonaut assistance in tracking UFOs (after all, we can only trust ourselves to do the job correctly; less observant sensors and less intelligent minds may do nothing more than report a particularly dense flock of birds as an extraterrestrial spacecraft). Because of this we are, by nature of necessity, required to outfit all of our aircraft with advanced sensor packages.

These "Xeno-sensors", as I've elected to call them, give the Condor the much needed capability to detect alien spacecraft out to a significant range (nothing like the range our ground based sensors, but a significant improvement for the capabilities of a fighter-jet). This allows them to effectively fly scout missions and to track UFOs wholly by themselves, without outside assistance. We have also taken the precaution of angling a number sensors down, aimed at the ground; the extraterrestrials may construct terrestrial bases, and we will want to detect and destroy those as soon as possible before they can do too much damage to our relations with the local population.

Fortunately, we've been able to design the equipment to fit underneath the wings of a condor and been able to harden it sufficiently to withstand the rigors and stresses of an aerial dogfight. Unfortunately, due to the bulky nature of the equipment we simply don't have the available space to utilize all of the hardpoints under the wings for armaments, meaning that we are limited to a mere sidewinder per wingtip.

Thankfully, the aircraft cannon is still fully operational and unobstructed, making it our weapon of choice. Expect to lean heavily on the aircraft cannon, Commander. Metaphorically speaking, of course; the neanderthals down in the workshop have already damaged one cannon by knocking it to the floor."

Edited by GizmoGomez
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The Condor Xenopedia description describes it as having a reenforced airframe that hopefully will allow it to soak up more damage.

The Foxtrot entry also mentions the reenforced armor. These would both have to be replaced with "added a multitude of redundant systems" or something along those lines.

The magnesium / titanium alloy mentioned in both of these xenopedia entries aren't mentioned anywhere else in the entire xenopedia, so we would only need to alter those two articles.

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Later models of aircraft could include a mention of armour perhaps, because that point we're reverse engineering alien materials that would be considered armour-like to our standards. But they'd also be the best options to mention having designed in massive redundancy, hmm.

As I mentioned before, each fighter design is pretty much a balance of every design element, including redundancy. I'm not certain how much space in the fuselage there is to convincingly fit replacement systems; there's still only one engine for example. And it still doesn't explain why only the Xenonauts are doing it. The change in Mk number and designation would suggest some sort of significant alteration to the F-16 design on the other hand, otherwise regardless of any changes it would remain an F-16.

Some sort of proprietary design change that increases the survivability of the aircraft but doesn't massively alter the fuselage. And can in fact also be applied to other existing aircraft...

Edited by Elydo
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@Gizmo: I actually like that. Just one slight change. Rather than mention "detecting a ground base", I would change it to say, "They will likely try to establish hidden staging areas on the ground." Or refer to them as Forward Operations Bases (FOBs), TOCs (Tactical Operations Centers), or something a little more realistic sounding rather than B movie sci-fi sounding.

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ISSUE: The alien interrogation description says the caesian is ordered to kill himself and commits suicide. I captured only 1 caesian, but there is also a research of caesians that requires an alien alive and of course it's weird I could do the research after the alien killed himself.

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@Ishantil

In the Iceland Incident description.

Initially the UFO looked like a ballistic missile on radar until it changed course on a dime. When they flew up it was the size of an aircraft carrier, so they clearly have some degree of stealth-ish construction. I mean, a ballistic missile isn't quite the size of an aircraft carrier, is it? ;)

@gshuford

Yeah, that'd be fine. It'd be up to Chris to actually word it, so I'm not too concerned about the actual wording (though I did kinda try to make it sound decent. ;))

@Elydo

Later aircraft do in fact mention armor, and attribute it to the alien alloy construction. It's just that the "human aircraft" wouldn't have any armor, because that'd be kinda ridiculous.

I think that the other aircraft descriptions are okay as they are. Perhaps they can mention incorporating Xeno-Sensors or something, but it wouldn't be necessary, considering that in the Condor description we should establish that we install them in all of our aircraft.

The main things that need to change are, in order of importance:

a) The Condor and Foxtrot entries need to not talk about armoring the planes, as this isn't realistic and it also begs the question why we aren't using a titanium/magnesium alloy for our ground troops as well.

b) The Sidewinder description needs to be fixed; the range needs to be changed to less than 8 kilometers (based on the numbers E4D found), it needs to not mention the foxtrot (as we don't have that from the start anymore).

c) The Condor entry should at least mention the (kinda flimsy, but better than nothing, right?) reasoning behind only having two missiles, namely, the sensor system taking up all of the hardpoints under the wings. It should also say that all xenonaut aircraft have the advanced sensor package (Xeno-Sensor) installed, and that they all have the capability of detecting UFOs and discovering alien bases on their lonesome.

EDIT: Also, staging areas isn't what they are, though. They're full fledged bases.

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My suggestion is to have the sensor package an acronym name instead of calling it a "xeno-sensor" Such as "Adaptive Radiation Detection Array (ARDA)" or something like that.

I think that the description of the thing in the Iceland Incident is suspect. Unless stealth was specifically mentioned (it seemed to gobble up radio waves" or something like that, I would not consider it to be purposefully stealth. I would imagine that the alien materials being highly heat resistant would probably reflect radio waves. There is no mention of gravity shields or anything like a forcefield in anything I've read.

I personally liked my "alien arrogance" excuse better, but that's just me. :)

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Here is the Condor description, italics added where unrealistic/incorrect things are:

The F-17 Condor is the primary Xenonaut interceptor aircraft, principally utilised in a general-purpose dogfighting role. Derived from the F-16 Fighting Falcon, it has broadly similar performance to its parent aircraft but uses a modified airframe that incorporates significantly larger fuel tanks and greater durability (paid for via a reduced payload).

The result is a tough and manoeuvrable aircraft capable of long-range interception missions. Fitted with a craft cannon in the nose and a light missile hardpoint under each wing, it is currently configured to carry the Autocannon and two Sidewinder missiles. If this firepower does not prove sufficient to down an enemy, one could simply employ multiple Condors against the same target. Hopefully this will not be necessary; my team have studied the damaged sustained by F-4 Phantom aircraft involved in the Iceland Incident and have developed a titanium / magnesium alloy we believe may prove more resistant to alien weapons than conventional aircraft materials. This has been used to give each Condor a reinforced airframe, hopefully allowing it to soak up more damage.

Of course, it is impossible to know how it will measure up against extraterrestrial craft unless they return. If they do, one hopes it will prove itself to be a capable combatant.

Here is how I would alter it, the bolded parts being the different bits:

The F-17 Condor is the primary Xenonaut interceptor aircraft, principally utilised in a general-purpose dogfighting role. Derived from the F-16 Fighting Falcon, it has broadly similar performance to its parent aircraft but uses a modified airframe that incorporates significantly larger fuel tanks, greater resilience, and the Adaptive Radiation Detection Array (ARDA), designed by yours truly.

The result is a tough and manoeuvrable aircraft capable of long-range interception missions as well as detecting and tracking extraterrestrial craft without the assistance of additional aircraft. Fitted with a craft cannon in the nose and a light missile hardpoint at the tip of each wing, it is currently configured to carry the M61 Vulcan autocannon and two AIM-9 Sidewinder missiles. Unfortunately, due to the large amount of space required for additional fuel and the ARDA, all under-the-wing hardpoints are taken up by either drop tanks or sensor equipment. If the firepower available does not prove sufficient to down an enemy, one could simply employ multiple Condors against the same target.

Concerning survivability; my team has studied the damage sustained by F-4 Phantom aircraft involved in the Iceland Incident. To avoid a similar loss of aircraft, we have developed and installed a variety of redundant systems, designed to allow the pilot to remain in control of the aircraft even after sustaining heavy damage. Even after taking damage that would normally prove crippling to a comparable aircraft, the Condor can still be flown home under its own power. Of course, this does not mean one can be lax about being shot. The Condor is very manoeuvrable and can make an evasive roll to dodge incoming fire. I recommend that in a combat situation this be utilized to it's fullest extent.

Of course, it is impossible to know how it will measure up against extraterrestrial craft unless they return. If they do, one hopes it will prove itself to be a capable combatant.

Reasons for changes:

-Removing armor, but adding redundant systems:

Makes more sense, considering that aircraft do not have any kind of armor, really. They have redundant systems so that if one is damaged, you can still use another one and still can fly the plane.

-"ARDA"-thingy

The Condor can detect and track UFOs around it in a huge (for a fighter) circle on the geoscape. Obviously it has some kind of advanced sensor system. Merging the sensor system with the established fact that UFOs emit radiation, we have the Adaptive Radiation Detection Array, a system of sensors attached to the underside of the wings of the Condor. This explains the sensor range on the geoscape as well as explaining why we only can carry two sidewinders; there's simply not enough room.

Edited by GizmoGomez
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Here is the current one, italics added for incorrect/unrealistic stuff:

The MiG-32 "Foxtrot" is a derivation of the experimental Soviet MiG-31 "Foxhound" interceptor. Originally designed to intercept supersonic NATO bombers, the Foxhound has the immense speed and climb rate we will need to catch fast UFOs and the additional firepower required to deal with heavier alien craft.

Naturally, we will be modifying the Foxhound to make it more effective against extraterrestrial craft (hence the updated "Foxtrot" designation). The airframe can be reinforced with the same titanium / magnesium alloy that has made our Condors more resistant to alien weapons, whilst the fuel tanks will be enlarged to increase the range of the interceptor. We will also have to replace some of the avionics; the requirements for intercepting human aircraft and extraterrestrial vessels are rather different. In all, this takes the production time for a Foxtrot up to roughly 30 man days.

Once successfully converted, the Foxtrot will be a formidable tool in our battle against the aliens. It has two missile hardpoints under its wings, each of which can carry either a light missile such as the Sidewinder, or a heavy air-to-air "torpedo" (such as the Avalanche) that can inflict devastating damage on anything too slow to avoid them. Unfortunately, the Foxtrot does not possess a cannon slot nor the agility to perform the Evasive Roll combat maneuver. It will be defenceless once it has fired both its missiles, easy pickings for any alien craft nimble enough to avoid them - so accompany it with more capable dogfighters if the target has an escort.

You can begin fabrication of the Foxtrot in our workshops immediately. I would avoid spending too long down there, though - I feel like my IQ drops a dozen points every time I visit our resident ogres.

Here is my proposal, with the alterations in bold:

The MiG-32 "Foxtrot" is a derivation of the experimental Soviet MiG-31 "Foxhound" interceptor. Originally designed to intercept supersonic NATO bombers, the Foxhound has the immense speed and climb rate we will need to catch fast UFOs and the additional firepower required to deal with heavier alien craft.

Naturally, we will be modifying the Foxhound to make it more effective against extraterrestrial craft, hence the updated "Foxtrot" designation. The aircraft will be equipped with several new system redundancies similar to those added our Condors to make them more resilient to damage. The fuel tanks will be enlarged to significantly increase the range of the interceptor and the ARDA sensor system will be installed to increase its extraterrestrial-detecting capabilities. We will also have to replace some of the avionics; the requirements for intercepting human aircraft and extraterrestrial vessels are rather different. In all, this takes the production time for a Foxtrot up to roughly 30 man days.

Once successfully converted, the Foxtrot will be a formidable tool in our battle against the aliens. It has two heavy hardpoints under its wings. Each hardpoint can carry either a light missile such as the Sidewinder, or the heavy air-to-air "torpedo" we've designated the Avalanche. The Avalanche Torpedo can inflict devastating damage on anything too slow to avoid them. Unfortunately, due to the space constraints of adding a redesigned targeting system and sensors package to allow the use of the Avalanche torpedo, the Foxtrot does not possess a cannon hardpoint. The Foxtrot also lacks the agility necessary to safely perform the Evasive Roll combat maneuver. It will be virtually defenceless once it has fired both its missiles, making it easy pickings for any alien craft nimble enough to avoid them - so accompany it with more capable dogfighters if the target has an escort.

You can begin fabrication of the Foxtrot in our workshops immediately. I would avoid spending too long down there, though - I feel like my IQ drops a dozen points every time I visit our resident ogres.

Reasons behind changes:

-Removing armor and adding redundant systems:

Same reasoning as with the Condor, namely, aircraft don't carry armor, they have redundant systems to avoid losing control of anything because of a damaged system.

-ARDA

Continuity

-Hardpoint stuff

Clarification

-Cannon replaced by sensors/targeting

Explaining why a MiG-32 doesn't have a cannon when the MiG-31 did.

-Cannot perform evasive roll vs cannot safely perform evasive roll

One makes it sound lame. The other makes it sound simply fragile.

Edited by GizmoGomez
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The F-17 Condor is the primary Xenonaut interceptor aircraft, principally utilised in a general-purpose dogfighting role. Derived from the F-16 Fighting Falcon, it has broadly similar performance to its parent aircraft but uses a modified airframe that incorporates significantly larger fuel tanks and upgraded redundant systems. It also incorporates an Adaptive Radiation Detection Array (ARDA) which can detect and track various alien craft and activities within a local radius. Unfortunately, the extra equipment limits only enough room for two hardpoints, one on either wingtip.

The result is a long-range fighter aircraft capable of interception missions. It is fitted with a 35mm chain cannon in the nose and two light hardpoints at each wingtip to accomodate a pair of sidewinders. If this firepower does not prove sufficient to down an enemy, one could simply employ multiple Condors against the same target. Hopefully this will not be necessary. Of course, it is impossible to know how it will measure up against extraterrestrial craft unless they return. If they do, one hopes it will prove itself to be a capable combatant.

EDIT: Apologies. I didn't realize you had posted a correction under the original.

Edited by gshuford
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I wouldn't think placing a fuel tank where the cannon assembly typically would be would make sense. You could just say there was no internal space left once the redundant systems were installed and it was deemed an acceptable trade-off. Or that more of the ARDA system could be kept internal due to the larger fuselage, but more external fuel capacity was required instead.

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I wouldn't think placing a fuel tank where the cannon assembly typically would be would make sense. You could just say there was no internal space left once the redundant systems were installed and it was deemed an acceptable trade-off. Or that more of the ARDA system could be kept internal due to the larger fuselage, but more external fuel capacity was required instead.

Fair point. I'll just say it was taken out and replaced by system redundancies.

EDIT: Changed. :)

@gshuford:

Can you bold the different sections? As much as I like reading... ;)

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Done.

EDIT: I also just threw something out there that sounded about right for the type of autocannon. It may be complete bs for the time frame.

Thanks.

Concerning the Autocannon, I think we'll just leave that be. I mean, it's not necessarily broken, so why fix it? ;)

Good idea, though.

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