Air Combat Autoresolve Formula Tweaks / Values

[kabill]

@Gauddlike: Dranak was refering explicitly to fighting "against an escorted UFO". I assume that means UFO+Escorts, where you have a mix of rolling and non-rolling UFOs and therefore where rolling modifiers don't apply. I.e, throwing three Foxtrots at anything other than a full Fighter squadron should be enough to take it in autoresolve, even though three Foxtrots against an escorted UFO should usually end up in the player losing. It might be better to change it so that mixed groups all count as rolling instead of non-rolling. But that would make Foxtrots useless against escorted UFOs unless - quite ironically - you equip them with light missiles beforehand.

This said, I'm not sure there's any way the autoresolver can be fixed without making it vastly more complex. I'm wondering whether the best solution might not be to make the player choose if they want to use autoresolve either 1) at the beginning of the game or 2) in the options menu. That way, it makes it impossible/more difficult for the player to game the system and the results will be consistent across the course of the game, even if they're not consistent between games/options.

[Dranak]

You have that backwards Gauddlike, if any aircraft can NOT roll then the No Roll values are used. http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/9812-Air-Combat-Autoresolve-Formula-Tweaks-Values?p=108074&viewfull=1#post108074

Reversing that logic (if ANY aircraft can roll, use the Roll values) would actually make Foxtrots weaker then Condors against escorted UFOs. I'm actually not sure how to fix this, because the system seems to work reasonably well with the exception of Corsairs.

Edit: I did use the Roll values for alien weapons vs Condor/Corsair/Marauder, on the assumption that the same rules apply, but I'm not completely certain that is correct. It would slightly change some of the outcomes (mostly Heavy Fighter vs Condor) if aliens always used the No Roll values.

Edited April 27, 2014 by Dranak

[Dranak]

Canyou give us an example of how the system would resolve a battle between a Bomber and 2 Fighter's, vs 2 Condor's with Alenium missiles and Laser, and a Foxtrot with Alenium Torpedoes?

Obviously I'm not Chris, but I think I can answer this. I'm making the assumption aliens use the same mechanism for determining whether to use the Roll or No Roll values as human craft. Alien cannons are all worth 0, and excluded for neatness.

Alien Force:

Bomber chassis - 1700

Fighter 1 chassis - 200

Fighter 1 Fightermissile x2 (No Roll) - 200

Fighter 2 Chassis - 200

Fighter 2 Fightermissile x2 (No Roll) - 200

Total UFO strength: 2500

Human forces:

Condor 1 chassis: 200

Condor 1 laser: 300

Condor 1 alenium missile x2: 600

Condor 2 chassis: 200

Condor 2 laser: 300

Condor 2 alenium missile x2: 600

Foxtrot chassis: 300

Foxtrot alenium torpedo x2: 1200

Total human strength: 3700

2500 UFO strength vs 3700 human strength values modified by up to 10% up or down giving a possible range of scores from 2250 to 2750 for UFOs and 3330 to 4070, all of which result in victory for the humans.

I'm not 100% certain on the damage formula, so this may be off. I believe Chris' post in the OP means the winner takes 2% damage for every 1% they are shy of beating the loser's score by 50%. The amount of damage taken by the humans would range from 0% to a worst case scenario of 58%

[Gauddlike]

I either misread or misremembered that part of the formula.

The way I remembered it feels more like the way it should be to me though.

Adding escorting fighters to the enemy squadron should make it more of a challenge which you balance out by taking along something like a Corsair to deal with the escorts.

Foxtrots have their role against bigger ships and Corsairs get their role against escorts reinforced.

No single aircraft type is the strongest as you will usually be facing mixed enemies.

The images I added were not related to the example, just a listing of possible values for reference.

[Dranak]

If you make that change though, Foxtrots become worse than Condors against anything that isn't an unescorted UFO. That seems like it would be even worse than the current state.

[legit1337]

If you make that change though, Foxtrots become worse than Condors against anything that isn't an unescorted UFO. That seems like it would be even worse than the current state.

Well really it is...

Consider loadouts. If the foxtrot is armed with 2 heavy missiles it is not hitting any fighters, but does better than condors against ships that cannot roll. If it is armed with 2 light missiles it is basically just a condor without a cannon. Which is essentially your description above.

[Gauddlike]

If you kept the current ARS values that would definitely be the case.

I was not suggesting that though, they would definitely need a rebalance.

The aim would be to promote a balanced squadron that counter the weaknesses of each other.

At the moment the Foxtrot always seems the best option.

Single enemy ship?

Take a Foxtrot, it will likely have the best ARS as most single ships cannot roll.

Multiple enemy ships?

Take Foxtrots as it is likely at least one of them cannot roll so the Foxtrot will have the highest ARS.

The question I guess is what would the player do.

If there was a Corvette with fighter escorts should the player take just Foxtrots, just Condors, or take a mixture?

The auto resolve should really favour the loadout that would be best to deal with those ships in the hands of the player.

The manual method should also have roles for each ship though which I am not convinced is the case.

[Chris]

Yeah, it appears that just setting all the UFOs to have 999k fuel prevents them falling foul of the 100% autoresolve fuel problem. Hardly surprising given they actually had less range than a Condor in the text files. That fix'll be in the next version.

The conjecture about the Corsair is also correct too - I hadn't updated the values to reflect the Corsair was now dual-cannon. I think I need to transfer some of the light missile score to the cannon to buff the Corsair without nerfing the Condor. This will also somewhat buff the Marauder at the cost of the Condor.

I'm going to make the following changes:

• Cannons increased in autoresolve power by roughly 50%
  
• Light missiles decreased in power by 25% (each)
  
• Light missiles are now 75% effective against enemies that can Roll, rather than 50% effective.
  
• Alien fighters / heavy fighters / interceptors have had their resolve strength buffed to 300 / 600 / 1000, as their cannons are included in their stats.
  

A corsair will therefore have the following stats in combat:

• Laser - 1,200 (600 + 600)
  
• Plasma - 1,600 (1000 + 600)
  
• MAG - 2,100 (1500 + 600)
  

I kinda feel the alien fighters are underpowered at the moment, given their stats and the fact they only have a single missile each. Are they that useless in the real air combat too?

[Gauddlike]

Could the Marauder base value be adjusted downwards slightly to balance the increased strength of its cannon?

I don't personally think it needs a buff in auto resolve at the moment.

[Dranak]

Alien Fighters all carry two missiles. In manual combat, alien fighters are all pretty easy to kill but any mistake is punished pretty heavily (especially with Condors).

[Chris]

Hmmm, actually - the scaling in the air combat in terms of actual damage (not auto-resolve) is interesting.

Condor:

• Ballistic: 720 damage
  
• Laser: 1,240 damage
  
• Plasma: 2,120 damage
  
• MAG: 3,260 damage
  

Foxtrot:

• Ballistic: 800 damage
  
• Laser: 1,200 damage
  
• Plasma: 1,800 damage
  
• MAG: 2,400 damage
  

Corsair:

• Ballistic: 640 damage
  
• Laser: 1,280 damage
  
• Plasma: 2,240 damage
  
• MAG: 3,560 damage
  

Marauder:

• Ballistic: 1,120 damage
  
• Laser: 1,840 damage
  
• Plasma: 2,920 damage
  
• MAG: 4,160 damage
  

(These numbers are all assuming the craft are able to fire all of their weapons and the enemy don't dodge any of the incoming missiles. In reality, the cannon-based craft deliver relatively more damage against the more agile UFOs but are less likely to survive long enough to unload all their weapons against the big ships as they have to get up close.)

Two things jump out at me there:

1) Cannon damage scales much better than other weapon types. Late game cannons need a slight nerf and early game cannons need a buff, I think. The multiplier for most weapons is 400% from ballistics to MAG tiers, but for cannons it's about 550%.

2) As all the different aircraft now have different weapon configurations, I think for auto-resolve purposes I may just use the damage output of the weapons for the human and alien fighters (alien capital ships just use their health as their score).

It doesn't represent aircraft hit points in their score, but I think it would work surprisingly well because the new cannons do a LOT of damage that would all be counted in the calculation. The extra HP of the plane is sort of represented in that (as there's a decent correlation between having one or more cannons and how tough the plane is).

[Gauddlike]

Are you still planning on representing current health in this somewhere?

[Chris]

Yes. There's no change to the system except I'm zeroing some of the numbers and changing others. As I said, I don't want to mess with the programming at this point.

[Gauddlike]

Just checking.

I wasn't sure if the health % was only supposed to modify the airframe ARS or if it was supposed to modify both that and weapon strength.

Just had to go read up on the first post.

[Dranak]

Well really it is...

Consider loadouts. If the foxtrot is armed with 2 heavy missiles it is not hitting any fighters, but does better than condors against ships that cannot roll. If it is armed with 2 light missiles it is basically just a condor without a cannon. Which is essentially your description above.

Not exactly. In manual combat you would include 1 or 2 escort killers to neutralize the alien escorts, allowing the Foxes to put their full torpedo payload into the main UFO.

[legit1337]

Not exactly. In manual combat you would include 1 or 2 escort killers to neutralize the alien escorts, allowing the Foxes to put their full torpedo payload into the main UFO.

Then the condors will be factored into the autresolve and the foxtrot's auto resolve strength will be that of when it is equipped with torpedoes, I still fail to see the problem.

[Dranak]

Then the condors will be factored into the autresolve and the foxtrot's auto resolve strength will be that of when it is equipped with torpedoes, I still fail to see the problem.

The problem would be that under Gauddlike's proposal, the system would not account for it which would artificially deflate the value of Foxes in mixed engagements. IMO that is worse than the current situation where their value is inflated as it seems more intuitive that the higher tech, more expensive plane would be better.

[Gauddlike]

Only if the current values were maintained which has torpedoes with zero ARS against rolling targets.

Remember that this doesn't need to be the case.

Those values could be adjusted, say torpedoes had 30% ARS against rolling targets as they can actually be used tactically to hit roll capable targets, especially in multiple craft engagements.

Glad to see the suggestions has created some discussion but remember that with a change like that you cannot just take it alone with everything else remaining the same.

Balance changes to specific values would also be required to work with it.

Personally I prefer the option Chris has presented though.

I am quite interested in seeing how it plays out.

It would probably be more useful to share views on that one.

[Dranak]

I'm looking at the new values and seeing some interesting findings, like Foxes now have the worst scaling and lowest autoresolve strength of all planes at a given level of tech.

A battleship and two Interceptors can potentially beat a Fury with favorable rolls (9.1k vs 10k unmodified strength).

Here's a chart of current AR values.

[undero]

Well, its possible to win with small ufo with autoresolve and 0% ammo (100% chance), after taking down some bigger enemy (all 3 ships at 0% ammo left after battle) ... they still can shot down some small ufo (not always, but most of times it works).

[Dranak]

Foxtrots feel slightly over-nerfed now. Fights that are hard to even take any damage in manual flight (alenium vs Scout, 2 alenium vs landing ship) result in nearly guaranteed heavy damage.

[Gauddlike]

I'm looking at the new values and seeing some interesting findings, like Foxes now have the worst scaling and lowest autoresolve strength of all planes at a given level of tech.

A battleship and two Interceptors can potentially beat a Fury with favorable rolls (9.1k vs 10k unmodified strength).

Here's a chart of current AR values.

I am not sure which values you picked for that table.

The Foxtrot for example has the non rolling strength of torpedoes but the rolling strength of light missiles.

Were you assuming that the loadout would be changed depending on the type of enemy you would be facing?

I updated my earlier picture which has the values for each human craft.

The heavy missile capable craft have a heavy missile and light missile variant listed separately.

Nice to see the UFOs added though, Didn't think to put those on.

[Dranak]

I changed the loadouts where appropriate, since any competent player would do so.

[StellarRat]

One thing that should go into the calculations that I don't think is in there is the differences in top speeds for the alien and human aircraft. I'm not exactly sure how that should work, but that also brings up the possibly in my mind of having something other than only two outcomes (win or lose) in autoresolve. It seems to me a third condition should be possible, partial damage or no damage to either side. Generally speaking in "manual" combat it is very possible to attack and only damage the aliens (or do nothing) and then escape because your fighters at least as fast as the alien ships. That's a function of the top speeds and how much fuel you have (can you go to afterburner, how long, etc...) I frequently will attack multiple times to destroy larger ships. One group destroys the escorts and a second group goes after the main ship later OR some big ships simply need to be hit with two or even three sorties to be brought down.

[Chris]

Maybe the Foxtrot should be given a bit of a chassis bonus, say 200 or so.