Ground Combat Balance Discussion Build V21 Experimental 4!

[frank_walls]

Okay, started a new game on Normal. 2nd ground mission of the game, and lost 8 out of 8 guys the 1st time, 5 out of 8 the 2nd, and 4 out of 8 the 3rd. Problem, Caesans are shooting my guys from across the map before I can see them, still hitting guys behind cover, and shooting through the corners of obstacles where my guys have a 100% blocked icon.

Update: 3rd ground mission against a Corvette. Just finished 1st attempt with all 8 guys killed. Now I understand aliens are a superior force, but what pool of slouches are my soldiers being recruited from? They can't shoot straight, most can't wear armor and carry more than a gun without suffering a TU penalty, and apparently they can't even hide behind cover properly because they always get shot.

Edited February 22, 2014 by frank_walls

[legit1337]

Jackal's weight needs to be toned down. It's protection though is fine IMO... It isn't meant to stop anything heavier then a plasma pistol, or maybe a plasma rifle at medium/long range (but still have an incapacitated soldier instead of a dead one, much like modern day soft vests).

It should be the armor used by scouts or anyone who isn't strong enough to wear the heavier stuff... perhaps also as a fallback armor too when budgets are tight.

It needs a price reduction and its weight cut in half. Right now, as many people pointed out, it just sucks.

I'd like to see this change along with a snapshot accuracy balance in the next experimental.

[Asmodean]

Great game! 4 thoughts.

1) Just a thought on this hugely long discussion about the AI math and what shot types it should use.

Does the AI ALWAYS need to use the best mathematically correct choice? Maybe the robotic ones should... but the others are living, thinking, feeling beings in the heat of a battle. Are they pulling out a range finder then an excell spreadsheet to calculate how best to use their TUs? NO! I think you should throw in a little randomness. It makes the game more interesting and probably more realistic. Not saying they should do blatantly stupid things but usually they have a few decent options to choose from.

2) Difficulty settings. Is it possible to have a more nuanced way to set difficulty? Instead of just easy, normal, etc... maybe we could set some of the modifiers individually (could be behind an advanced settings menu)... for example it drives me crazy to have aliens with better sight range than me. And until the game is fully balanced maybe we can make adjustments mid game... then people like frank_walls who is nearing end game can tweak it himself to suit his needs.

3) More on Sight range: I think it would be useful to add some options here. Binoculars? Night vision goggles? Maybe they have to be held in a hand and used (TU cost) to give a 1 turn sight range boost? Or maybe you could even "fire" them to reveal a small radius (with a range limit), thus your scout could spend several TUs slowly scanning the field ahead. Snipers (weapons with scopes) could get a sight range bonus. Give the player some strategic options on those wide open maps (without that I just want to nerf the aliens sight advantage so he stops killing me before I see him as I advance from cover to cover).

4) Windows: Regardless of line of site working or not. If a soldier is standing directly next to a window then the wall in front and to the sides should not impede his fire. He should be able to stick his gun through or even lean thru the window and get a full 180 degree clear line of fire. Same as how being next to a crate does not impede you firing over the crate. Or maybe that only applies once the window is broken.... which then maybe we need a way to spend a few TUs and clear a window.

What do people think?

[Max_Caine]

Unfortunately sight range is associated with the armour type your squaddie is wearing. At the moment, you would have to make a new suit of armour if you wanted to improve sight range. I find it curious that so many people are saying the aliens have a sight advantage. In the latest experimental there is only one race which has - on paper anyway - which has a sight range advantage over humans. According to the stats, all the other racial types should have the same sight range as humans. That being said, FOV is permanent until a new turn. So if an alien sees your solider in his turn, even if that alien is killed, the area the alien sees stays seen until FOV is reset the next turn.

[Asmodean]

Hmmm good point on the distinction between total FOV and actual sight range. That could be my problem then as there are times that as I advance I am shot at from deep within my unexplored range. So probably one of the aliens revealed the FOV then moved back, or behind a wall. Then on my turn I unknowingly step into the FOV, yet don't see any aliens and get shot at by any alien who has LOS.

Maybe then FOV should be updated between turns... so after moving when you hit end turn your FOV drops to current LOS. Same for aliens. This could be a big improvement on the game mechanics I think.

As for sight range being tied to armor type. Is it not possible for an item to just give a bonus of say +2? I still think the strategic options there would be interesting. If not then maybe some sort of scout armor or night combat armor would be fun to add.

[Max_Caine]

It's tricky to tell whether it's total FOV that's killing your guys or whether there's a bug which is giving the aliens extra sight. I'm not quite sure how you'd test the difference between the two. Chris did talk ages ago about updating FOV to be real-time, but nothing seems to have come of it.

Regarding sight ranges, there doesn't seem to be an option in the config files other than armour, so that kind of stuff is hardcoded in. It's a question of money and consequences - how much money in terms of dev time and artwork is Chris willing to spend, and what would the effect be? Way back in the early builds (we're talking v9-v13 here) aliens had longer sight ranges, and Jackal armour had a shorter sight range. Oh, there was a wailing and gnashing of teeth. Sight ranges were equalised as a result. Would having a longer sight range make it too easy?

[Asmodean]

I am pretty sure it is FOV. Once you mentioned it that makes sense. Some of the examples I am thinking of were times I was shot at from 5 or 6 spaces beyond my FOV... in one recent battle I was shot at from a good 10 spaces beyond my own FOV.

Also I have gamed the FOV myself. Run up and explore, or use the tank to reveal as much as possible but save enough TUs to run behind a wall. Then the aliens wander into my FOV. I just for some reason didn't consider that is what the aliens might be doing.

So the main point would be to update FOV to if not real time then to update between turns to prevent reaction fire that is beyond the current squads LOS. On open maps the current system can lead to alot of unavoidable deaths which is no fun.

If that update happens then adding sight range bonus items is a secondary point. Though I don't think it would unbalance it if done well... we already have it with vehicles, I just don't like using vehicles. Maybe I will mod in my own scout armor and see how it goes.

[legit1337]

Didn't chris mention wanting to put in a constantly updated FOV? As in if you don't have a spotter, the tiles go back to grey?

[KateMicucci]

Jackal's weight needs to be toned down. It's protection though is fine IMO... It isn't meant to stop anything heavier then a plasma pistol, or maybe a plasma rifle at medium/long range (but still have an incapacitated soldier instead of a dead one, much like modern day soft vests).

I'd rather have most alien weapons lose their armor mitigation, and have armor values adjusted to compensate. What's the point of giving high armor values which are going to be negated by high armor mitigation instead of just using lower armor values in the first place?

A majority of the alien weapons mitigate Jackal it down to 5 points. Pistols are the only thing it works against reasonably, and even light scouts aren't armed exclusively with pistols anymore. Even if jackal is half the weight and price it's not worth it since it isn't contributing anything to the soldier's survivability.

Edited February 24, 2014 by KateMicucci

[frank_walls]

It's tricky to tell whether it's total FOV that's killing your guys or whether there's a bug which is giving the aliens extra sight. I'm not quite sure how you'd test the difference between the two.

It's usually a reaction shot while I'm moving. On one mission I was moving into a farm field, and as my first soldier came around the corner of a hedgerow he got shot from across the field. The Caesan was about 4 to 5 squares out of my FOV in front of me. There were no other aliens in the field and all of other soldiers were behind the hedgerow.

[legit1337]

I'd rather have most alien weapons lose their armor mitigation, and have armor values adjusted to compensate. What's the point of giving high armor values which are going to be negated by high armor mitigation instead of just using lower armor values in the first place?

A majority of the alien weapons mitigate Jackal it down to 5 points. Pistols are the only thing it works against reasonably, and even light scouts aren't armed exclusively with pistols anymore. Even if jackal is half the weight and price it's not worth it since it isn't contributing anything to the soldier's survivability.

I see what you are saying... but again, I don't think jackal armor isn't meant to stop anything heavier then a plasma pistol, and bring a plasma rifle hit down from 90% fatality to around 40-50%.

Perhaps give it 5-10 more points of armor in addition to a 4.5kg weight and half the current price?

[Chris]

I did mention removing FOV persistence, but I removed it from the to-do list after some other changes a few months ago that made me feel like the change was no longer required. However, I'm starting to revise my opinion.

It may well be worth a try - it's basically a night mission without the "light" limitations in place. I don't think it's a huge change to make and if you remind me about it when the polishing phase starts I'll get it added as a toggle in config.xml.

[Max_Caine]

Okay, I've just done my first alien base mission since Aaron made the new alien bases, and I've got to say, nice one, Aaron! It was a small Caesan base, so the easiest of the racial types to do. The teleporter room? Genius! And the placing of it was pretty spot on, imo. Only thing I could say is that the teleporter rooms could stand to be beefed up by a couple more noncoms just to make it more challenging. The base is explorable in several directions at once, which I love. What might be nice is if the guards and drones were roaming while the noncoms were static. I say that because I did get a few nasty surprises with guards popping up, and light drones in close quarters are actually deadlier than plasma rifle toting guard because their fusilade of shots will typically kill. Also, can we have some things that go BOOM?

EDIT: Sure thing, Chris.

[KateMicucci]

I see what you are saying... but again, I don't think jackal armor isn't meant to stop anything heavier then a plasma pistol, and bring a plasma rifle hit down from 90% fatality to around 40-50%.

Are you just making up those numbers? That's not what my math shows.

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/8992-Ground-Combat-Balance-Discussion-Build-V21-Experimental-4!?p=100227&viewfull=1#post100227

[legit1337]

Are you just making up those numbers? That's not what my math shows.

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/8992-Ground-Combat-Balance-Discussion-Build-V21-Experimental-4!?p=100227&viewfull=1#post100227

Those aren't numbers from the actual game. Those are my opinions on what jackal armor's in-game capability should be based off of the lore.

EDIT: I took a look at the actual numbers from your post and wow... plasma rifles really should have less mitigation and more flat damage. A 33% chance to survive a plasma rifle hit is way too high for an unarmored soldier (imo it should be 20% at the HIGHEST). It would also help alleviate the jackal armor problem because more armor would be applied against the shot.

Edited February 25, 2014 by legit1337

[Gauddlike]

Great!

I've started a spreadsheet with chance-to-hit calculations per range:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AkNMPlaGZUcLdDlUYWlUeUhlQ2c2OFlZZW04WXZxN2c&usp=sharing

The only missing details:

How does "NoTargetPenalty" work?

How does "Short Range Hit Bonus" work?

Once that is in, we can just copy the sheet for each shot-type, add some graphs and compare

Quick question, does the spreadsheet take into account damage drop off with range or is it purely accuracy based?

[DrNoid]

I don't know the equation for damage drop-off with range, so that's not added. If you have that equation, please add it, or post it so I can add it.

Of course, if the equation is only depending on range it won't change anything when comparing the different shot types.

[Gauddlike]

I don't know the equation for damage drop-off with range, so that's not added. If you have that equation, please add it, or post it so I can add it.

Of course, if the equation is only depending on range it won't change anything when comparing the different shot types.

It depends on what you are comparing I guess.

If you are trying to see how the snap shot at short range compares with an aimed shot at long range for example then it might be useful.

The only formula I know of is the one posted here:

http://xenowiki.goldhawkinteractive.com/index.php?title=Damage_System

I don't know if that has changed since it was posted.

I do know that the damage coefficient listed is no longer -10% to +10%, it is +/-50% now.

Not sure if it is worth adding for you, I was just curious if it was taken into account already somewhere as I couldn't see it.