Chris' Amazing Balance Patch V1!

[legit1337]

Giving the player more information is never uncool. I personally would like to see or hear some sort of indication on how the enemy's armor is mitigating my firepower.

[Solarius Scorch]

Giving the player more information is never uncool. I personally would like to see or hear some sort of indication on how the enemy's armor is mitigating my firepower.

Pay attention to your battles. Gather experience. Learn from your observations. Hone your instincts.

After all, we're fighting an Enemy Unknown.

That's why I think giving the player bare numbers is a bad idea. It hurts the setting/mood IMHO.

[legit1337]

Pay attention to your battles. Gather experience. Learn from your observations. Hone your instincts.

After all, we're fighting an Enemy Unknown.

That's why I think giving the player bare numbers is a bad idea. It hurts the setting/mood IMHO.

I see where you are coming from but respectfully disagree.

In the original x-com your base, troop, and logistics management was a series of spreadsheets. Your rookies were expendable and you pretty much had an unlimited supply of them. The entire war against the alien menace was essentially a battle of numbers. If this were COD I would agree with you but seeing numbers pop up in combat does not run counter to the theme of x-com and xenonauts imo.

Higher difficulties should hide the numbers but I want to at least hear when I'm hitting flesh and hurting the alien, or when he just shrugged off the hit because of his armor.

[Solarius Scorch]

I see where you are coming from but respectfully disagree.

In the original x-com your base, troop, and logistics management was a series of spreadsheets. Your rookies were expendable and you pretty much had an unlimited supply of them. The entire war against the alien menace was essentially a battle of numbers. If this were COD I would agree with you but seeing numbers pop up in combat does not run counter to the theme of x-com and xenonauts imo.

Higher difficulties should hide the numbers but I want to at least hear when I'm hitting flesh and hurting the alien, or when he just shrugged off the hit because of his armor.

Oh yes, I must agree that you can't cycle through troops as much as in X-Com, so perhaps you need an extra hand (although this may still change). Still, I hope that if necessary, this can be achieved by some more subtle means. I don't know how to do it though.

[qdlat]

#1 - I'll have to try it. You may need to improve the chance of reaction fire as a counter.

#2 - Don't like, it discourages flanking and using cover when ever possible i.e. proper tactics.

#3 - This is interesting. I'll have to try it before I know.

#4 - Increasing the accuracy beyond what it was already increased previously seems a bit much. Everyone was quite accurate before. You don't want it to be impossible to move on the battlefield or everything will bog down into "trench warfare." Too much accuracy will do that.

#5 - Don't like because the aliens are supposed to much better than the humans 1 for 1.

#6 - I do agree that aliens lurking in buildings is a good idea. I've been advocating for that for a long time. As far as more aliens being more dangerous shooting, weapons, stats, etc...see #4, same response. Also, this seems to contradict number #5 to a certain extent.

Honestly, I kind of hoped we could just have had the AI patch and the old balance to test first along with whatever bug fixes were done. If we can't seperate the fixed AI from the "new balance" it's going to be hard to compare everything properly. I really was thinking the ground combat balance was OK had the aliens AI been working properly. If you change multiple balancing variables on us, it's going to be quite difficult to re-assess everything all at once. Taken together, these changes will probably slow down the completion of the final balance for the game, IMO.

My thoughts exactly! Thanks for saving me a lot of typing . Especially the last paragraph is something worth keeping in mind. Too many variables and balance tweaking turns into re-balancing of the whole game - which is not needed. Current state of affairs is very good IMO, challenge on veteran level is just right in general. Take #1 for instance: I am not entirely sure if this sort of change will not make me run to the alien and shot it in a face.

Also I would like to stress that I LIKE current cover system. It makes me using some tactics instead of just turning the play into a shooting range. Make them far less effective and flanking is no longer needed.

[Gauddlike]

I didn't think I had to explain this in greater detail, but very well.

Explaining yourself in greater detail is always required when your original response consists of nothing but a vague proclamation that you know better but cannot explain why.

In a game that is all about numbers and displays numbers everywhere displaying one more set is neither unprofessional or any more of a compromise.

It is in fact identical in function to displaying hitpoint damage.

As you say armour degradation is a significant feature (or at least would be if more aliens had meaningful armour) so displaying it in some way would be useful.

I also think you are underestimating the intelligence of gamers in general if you think displaying two pop up numbers in different colours would confuse them, especially if the game told them in advance what they meant.

The images representing the units are too small and not detailed enough to allow a proper visual identification of armour or health damage so your observations and information gathering is all done from abstractions.

Incidentally relying purely on sound would not be a good option for me due to hearing problems and the difficulty of playing the game surrounded by family.

A visual representation as with every other aspect of the game would be better.

This may not be pop up numbers, although that was suggested as it is the same method used for hitpoint damage, but something visual.

[Ol' Stinky]

I think we're tapping into a problem that's bigger than even Chris' Amazing Balance Patch is able to handle - there's no good way at the moment to convey the amount of info to the player. In a perfect world, when I take a shot I'd like to know:

• How much was mitigated by armour
  
• How much suppression was caused
  
• Whether the amount of damage dealt was lucky or not
  
• How much was mitigated by cover, assuming thats still in

I love seeing numbers pop up in battle, floating numbers release the good chemicals in my brain. I appreciate not everyone's that way, though. In addition to the visual/audio cues, I'd like a combat log such as the one in debug mode, that can be hidden for those wanting immersion. It's probably too late to see that happen, unfortunately.

[Gauddlike]

Yeah we are at the stage of not being able to please everyone

Good luck Chris.

[ventuswings]

Yeah we are at the stage of not being able to please everyone

Good luck Chris.

Yeah, I also fall into camp who prefer the information regarding state of armour handled with audio cue instead of numbers. Honestly I think that's the best compromise...

Also can't wait for soon upcoming balance patch!

[Gauddlike]

Is an audio queue alone the best option for those who have a hearing impairment?

How about people who play with the sound low to prevent disturbance to their family?

Pretty much everything I can think of in the game is communicated visually which to me means leaving one important aspect to audio only seems out of place.

Better than nothing I guess but I would never have access to that particular information if it was only audio.

[Ol' Stinky]

Is an audio queue alone the best option for those who have a hearing impairment?

How about people who play with the sound low to prevent disturbance to their family?

Pretty much everything I can think of in the game is communicated visually which to me means leaving one important aspect to audio only seems out of place.

Better than nothing I guess but I would never have access to that particular information if it was only audio.

Or even people who play with the radio\music\etc. on in the background. Turn based games generally don't require people to listen out for audio cues. Playing the metallic sound when a shot hits an aroured unit is a cool idea, don't get me wrong, but it's not enough on its own.

Instead of trying to convey how armour's had an effect after the damage, why not indicate roughly how much armour an alien has when you target him? I'm thinking a shield icon to go above the TU cost of the shot. The icon could have nothing but an outline if the alien has less armour than the weapon has armour penetration, green if the armour will absorb up to ~20% of the shot, amber if it will absorb ~20-50%, and red if it's 50%+.

The main drawback is that shield icons were used to show how well covered a target was in Firaxis-XCom, which might confuse people. Maybe someone can think of a better symbol than a shield.

[vaultdweller]

I'll sound off to support the faction that does *not* want the damage reduction number to be shown on a hit. The final damage is sufficient, and adding more would just look clunky, and probably become unreadable when several shots hit from a burst.

That degree of information display works fine in a game that has a dedicated GUI area to display such combat messages (see Fallout, Baldur's Gate, etc). It's too much data to throw into something that's momentarily displayed in front of the sprite.

[Dranak]

I don't think showing armor mitigation would be inherently bad, but it's never really felt necessary to me. Intuitively it makes enough sense that if a big weapon does a small amount of damage, the alien has a lot of armor. I'm trying to think of how knowing exactly how much armor an alien has left would actually change a choice I would make in game, but I can't really think of one off the top of my head.

[StellarRat]

I'm not exactly sure why anything other than hit or miss is shown. Showing any damage/stun/suppression info is already a gimme. Unless you were very close you wouldn't know any of those details.

[llunak]

How about people who play with the sound low to prevent disturbance to their family?

They should buy a cheap headset?

I myself find it amusing asking for seeing all these details in the game. Fighting in this game is supposed to be a bloody scary battle, not some spreadsheet management. Carefully checking exactly how big holes are in an alien's armour is the last thing soldiers would be bothered with. One doesn't need to know everything. In fact, it's far better gamewise for most people if they don't.

[Gauddlike]

Ah so they should be forced to buy new hardware to be able to access in game information, good plan.

What would you suggest the hearing impaired buy to be able to play your game as effectively as any other person?

I am also interested to see what you mean by the rest of 'all these details' as the only suggestion I have seen was to add mitigation to the already present damage indicator.

I tend to prefer to have all of the information I need to make decisions present rather than hidden away but I understand if some prefer to do without it.

As an aside, if a soldier is attacking something armoured with a weapon that struggles to penetrate that armour he would be a fool to not check for weak points and target them.

Add it or don't, I am not overly tied to the suggestion but don't add something in a way that does not tie in with the rest of the game.

Edited January 6, 2014 by Gauddlike

[smoitessier]

Well we already have sounds for a weapons hitting and weapons shooting what's the harm of having weapon ricochet deflected off some armor? In a Best case scenario we would have a toggle to turn it on or off (the on screen numbers). But I think sounds are very important in a game, these little details can only help I would think

Edited January 6, 2014 by smoitessier

[Gauddlike]

Because they are not the only indicator of a hit or miss?

I am not saying there should be no sounds but that a sound should not be the only indicator of an important piece of information.

[Ol' Stinky]

I don't think showing armor mitigation would be inherently bad, but it's never really felt necessary to me. Intuitively it makes enough sense that if a big weapon does a small amount of damage, the alien has a lot of armor. I'm trying to think of how knowing exactly how much armor an alien has left would actually change a choice I would make in game, but I can't really think of one off the top of my head.

There's a +/- 50% random modifier on weapon damage, so you don't always know whether a low hit's because of an armoured target or because of bad luck.

If you have two targets and one of them doesn't have armour, you'll probably focus fire on that one. If an andron and a drone pop into view, you'll know to go for the drone, especially if you're a bit behind on weapons tech.

I'm not exactly sure why anything other than hit or miss is shown. Showing any damage/stun/suppression info is already a gimme. Unless you were very close you wouldn't know any of those details.

I like to know what the weapons I use actually do. Do you know what the difference in suppression is between an LMG and a sniper? If you do, hat's off to you, because I wouldn't be able to work it out from playing the game normally. I am a bit dim, admittedly.

They should buy a cheap headset?

I myself find it amusing asking for seeing all these details in the game. Fighting in this game is supposed to be a bloody scary battle, not some spreadsheet management. Carefully checking exactly how big holes are in an alien's armour is the last thing soldiers would be bothered with. One doesn't need to know everything. In fact, it's far better gamewise for most people if they don't.

For some of us, a headset's not an option. I don't know why, but earphones (or headset, or whatever) causes my tinnitus to go up a pitch. Please don't make me rely on audio cues.

I don't think anyone's asking that more feedback should be forced on people. But it's a lot harder to learn what does what when there's no display of, for example, suppression radius. Or suppression value. Or proper explosion radius, or grenade arc...

Edited January 6, 2014 by Ol' Stinky

[X-Xenonaut]

I lost all my saved games with this update... is that normal. great Game.. I don't mind starting all over again

[Ol' Stinky]

I lost all my saved games with this update... is that normal. great Game.. I don't mind starting all over again

It happens a whole lot with experimental versions. Good luck saving the world!

[Solarius Scorch]

I would like to reiterate that I find this armour/health display a poor idea for the final game (except maybe for balancing, but that's not what the end user normally does). Like several people mentioned, this disables your instincts and turn you into an accountant, and that's just bad for the experience. There are games where data should be disclosed, but IMHO a tactical combat game, especially with aliens, is not.

I do however agree that introducing some combat information in sound form only isn't justified.

Now, how can this be done? The only thing I came up with are additional, distinct animation sequences when being hit, for small, medium and massive health loss. I don't think it'd be easy to do though.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Solarius Scorch

[llunak]

Ah so they should be forced to buy new hardware to be able to access in game information, good plan.

Yes, because earphones are so expensive and nobody has any at home.

What would you suggest the hearing impaired buy to be able to play your game as effectively as any other person?

Nothing, because they cannot achieve that? First of all, I don't think knowing exactly what kind of damage a shot achieved in a game is anywhere near the top of their problems, and second, they already lose enough information in the game as it is (everything during 'Hidden Movement', for starters). Unless you actually know what it's like for hearing-impaired to play the game, you shouldn't try to play this card.

If you think that pretty much everything in the game is communicated visually, you should actually check. You cannot have that, unless you want everything in the game to have a label, which I think we all know how that's likely.

I am also interested to see what you mean by the rest of 'all these details' as the only suggestion I have seen was to add mitigation to the already present damage indicator.

Read Ol'Stinky's post, in case you missed it somehow.

I tend to prefer to have all of the information I need to make decisions present rather than hidden away

Everybody does, so do I. But that doesn't mean we get it.

As an aside, if a soldier is attacking something armoured with a weapon that struggles to penetrate that armour he would be a fool to not check for weak points and target them.

Would they? If the shots do have at least some effect on the target (which they do), maybe they'd be rather a fool not to spend that time shooting. And there's a difference between guessing what a weak point is and knowing exactly everything about it.

[jeon]

There's a +/- 50% random modifier on weapon damage' date=' so you don't always know whether a low hit's because of an armoured target or because of bad luck.

If you have two targets and one of them doesn't have armour, you'll probably focus fire on that one. If an andron and a drone pop into view, you'll know to go for the drone, especially if you're a bit behind on weapons tech.

I like to know what the weapons I use actually do. Do you know what the difference in suppression is between an LMG and a sniper? If you do, hat's off to you, because I wouldn't be able to work it out from playing the game normally. I am a bit dim, admittedly.

For some of us, a headset's not an option. I don't know why, but earphones (or headset, or whatever) causes my tinnitus to go up a pitch. Please don't make me rely on audio cues.

I don't think anyone's asking that more feedback should be forced on people. But it's a lot harder to learn what does what when there's no display of, for example, suppression radius. Or suppression value. Or proper explosion radius, or grenade arc...[/quote']

Some armor indication would be nice in the event that aliens get armor. For balance with armor though there really needs to be some setting for overall % degradation of the armor of all damage types though because I'm having a hard time with the armor while I'm switching between tiers that change damage types and I'm having a hard time making explosive weapons make sense. Explosives should be able to soften up the armor of a heavily armored unit so that my regular weapons can make it through and my regular weapons should damage the armor so that the explosion will blow it up.

Having the option for numbers on/off would be nice and so would having a sound effect, although I usually don't play with the sound on.

I'm a numbers guy and I'm in the config files all the time and the suppression mechanic still confuses me half of the time. For example: I have a few guys about 6 tiles away from an alien around the corner. We can't see him but we can shoot the tile right in front of him. I can offload 2 shotgun shots and 8 pistol shots on that tile and a few assault rifle shots and the alien doesn't get suppressed. If I load and instead shoot 2 sniper shots in that tile, the alien is suppressed. Looking at the files that should be like 200 suppression in the first instance and 80 in the second. Heck, I can even go out there with the pistol guy and shoot the alien 8 times in the face and he doesn't get suppressed even though that should be 80 suppression.

Also, grenades just fly weird sometimes bouncing off of a piece of small cover 3 tiles away that would in no way ever block a grenade when you are throwing it to the other side of the room... but if you smoke the room first it seems like you never miss.

[Gauddlike]

Nothing, because they cannot achieve that? First of all, I don't think knowing exactly what kind of damage a shot achieved in a game is anywhere near the top of their problems, and second, they already lose enough information in the game as it is (everything during 'Hidden Movement', for starters). Unless you actually know what it's like for hearing-impaired to play the game, you shouldn't try to play this card.

My wife is hearing impaired and only struggles when information is not available in another form.

The hidden movement phase gives no real valuable information in sound form so she misses nothing important.

Try it with the volume off and I can pretty much guarantee your decisions would not be altered.

Believe it or not some people with poor hearing actually play games.

If you have multiple soldiers with multiple targets and need to decide which target to pick then you need the information.

You may not care about that decision if you are just hosing down targets but more tactical play can be achieved with some simple information.

You do need to have some awareness of your targets and your weapons though which is more difficult if you hide information.

If you think that pretty much everything in the game is communicated visually, you should actually check. You cannot have that, unless you want everything in the game to have a label, which I think we all know how that's likely.

I think you are mistaking visual for text based.

Visual can be icons, labels, sprites, colour coding etc.