Realism Issues Center: Lets make this game make more sense

[GizmoGomez]

That would be awesome, I was thinking along similar lines, actually. "ARDA System" is what I would name it.

Oooh, and it also makes more sense for the dish to actually be in the base, rather than say...dunno, on top of something high, like...where you put radar.

ARDA System would fit better, yeah.

I'll update the post.

[Elydo]

Do the base facilities not get their own xenopedia entries? I know they don't as of yet, but I was thinking they'd be added in when everything gets finalised.

Shaped charges would be pretty poor for air-to-air work due to the difficulty in ensuring that the target lies (or remains) in the appropriate direction when the warhead is triggered, as well as range issues. Since our missiles seem to be contact-only detonation, that's less a concern (and both explain each other).

Keep in mind that HEAT warheads don't 'burn' through armour, the jet uses kinetic force and functionally acts as a solid penetrator, though it has different properties from a solid penetrator.

Higher tech weapons like nuclear 'shaped-charges' would work on a completely different principle, probably using magnetic fields generated immediately after the explosion to direct the force.

I don't think we need to go into detail about the types of radiation the array can pick up or that the alien craft gives off. At least, not until the Insane Realism Issues Mod...

[TrashMan]

Bomb-pumped lasers. Nuff siad.

Ya know...the kind of laser you create by detonating a nuke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_pumped_laser

Edited September 2, 2013 by TrashMan

[Elydo]

Oh I've been waiting for someone to bring them up. Somewhere, Chris just twitched and he doesn't know why, but he knows it's to do with the forums...

Edited September 2, 2013 by Elydo

[TrashMan]

The explanation of ground based radar assisting in the tracking works fine until you leave the radar range, get out over open water, or fly over certain uninhabited parts of the world.

Easy to explain. Once a UFO is detected, every radar station in the world is notified of it. So it might leave your radar, but he probably has 100 others painting it.

b) The Sidewinder description needs to be fixed; the range needs to be changed to less than 8 kilometers (based on the numbers E4D found), it needs to not mention the foxtrot (as we don't have that from the start anymore).

It's best to avoid giving fixed numbers.

Just saying it's restricted to a significantly shorter range should be enough.

c) The Condor entry should at least mention the (kinda flimsy, but better than nothing, right?) reasoning behind only having two missiles, namely, the sensor system taking up all of the hardpoints under the wings.

Nah.

All missiles should just be set to X2. Aircraft really need a bit more ammo.

Edited September 2, 2013 by TrashMan

[TrashMan]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-6-23

10000 23mm rounds per minute. Gas operated.

Gotta love russians.

[TrashMan]

Issue:

The Xenonauts and the rest of the world (Local Forces) all use radar. However, only the Xenonauts can actually detect and track the UFOs. The rest of the world only reports sightings, or attacks, or odd events.

Obviously the Xenonauts can do something that the rest of the world cannot.

It makes everything make sense.

The rest of the world can't shoot down or otherwise deal with UFOs because they simply can't track them, or detect them. They use radar, which (according to the iceland incident) isn't very effective against UFOs. They don't have the ARDA that we have.

Soo..how did they detect and track the 1st UFO then (Iceland incident)?

How do the local forces shoot down ufo's (and they do early on)?

Saying "no one can track them besides X-Com" is NOT the answer.

X-Com can be more effective, but that's about it.

Edited September 2, 2013 by TrashMan

[EchoFourDelta]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-6-23

10000 23mm rounds per minute. Gas operated.

Gotta love russians.

Not really. A great deal of their materiel was abject shit, and designed to overtake Western dominated battlefields by sheer weight of numbers; if you haven't picked it up, this has been Soviet/Russian doctrine for a while (and in large part still is).

In this case, the weapon could only have its trigger pulled ten times, and could not be fired again until its cocking charges were replaced (even if the pilot had ammunition left). Another critical problem is the muzzle velocity compared to similar weapon systems; velocity is key here: a marginally larger projectile does little when the rounds have trouble hitting the target - engaging targets with gun systems on aircraft is dicey enough... which brings us to the last concern. A great many Russian autocannon systems were... poorly-built. Like, not "failed to fire," or "catastrophically malfunctioned." This particular design was prone to damaging (already subpar) ammunition (and poor fuzing systems), which could then explode inside the weapon, destroying the craft. Another not so small problem was some systems physically destroying their mounting systems and the aircraft they were attached to when the were fired due to sympathetic vibration, resulting in the gun literally ripping itself from the mounts, destroying flight controls and cockpit equipment, or other equally hilarious (and disastrous) problems.

Also, the reason there are "fixed numbers" is because the figures in the files are metric, and they actually list the maximum range of the weapons.

Edited September 2, 2013 by EchoFourDelta

[EchoFourDelta]

Soo..how did they detect and track the 1st UFO then (Iceland incident)?

How do the local forces shoot down ufo's (and they do early on)?

Saying "no one can track them besides X-Com" is NOT the answer.

X-Com can be more effective, but that's about it.

Sure they can be. They have systems specifically designed to track alien craft, and the aliens aren't using the same craft they did before (which was in and of itself difficult to detect via radar).

At any rate, part of the silliness is coming from saying we track them with radar, and then it moving to "our missiles have to track by radiation, because we can't track by radar" even though it would be even easier to paint them with onboard systems, as close as the planes are. There's two different statements being made in the Xenopedia.

[EchoFourDelta]

All missiles should just be set to X2. Aircraft really need a bit more ammo.

Also, this is mechanics, not fluff; we're coming up with fluff to actually match mechanics.

[Ishantil]

As GizmoGomez had to point out to me, the purpose of this post isn't to expand the original in-game fiction, but to adjust certain aspects that don't make sense or are inconsistent.

I'm planning on putting together a Xenopedia Expansion mod, but keeping it updated against the always changing files is going to be difficult. I'll probably wait until Chris says he's done with the Xenopedia entries.

[TrashMan]

Also, this is mechanics, not fluff; we're coming up with fluff to actually match mechanics.

And I'm telling here the balancing could use changing here. won't make much difference in the scope of a single battle (as the second missile has to gain lock again), but it does allow your aircraft to have some endurance.

Regarding radar - it is my understanding we can track alien by radar, only it's not really good.

Just because I know your approximate location, doesn't mean I can hit you.

In other words, ordinary human radars can detect them (with some difficulty) and aquire missile lock (with great difficulty)

[GizmoGomez]

Alrighty;

Are we happy with the proposals as they currently are? Anything that needs to be changed? Added?

Here is what we have so far:

• Global:
  Adding another technology that's mentioned in several Xenopedia entries: the Adaptive Radiation Detection Array (ARDA) system. This array detects and tracks the radiation emissions that leak out of UFOs. This is a large reason why the Xenonauts are better than the rest of the world at dealing with UFOs; they can actually track them really well. The rest of the world uses radar, which doesn't work as well with UFOs. For example: the Iceland Incident UFO (size of a battleship) looked like a single ballistic missile on radar. How small compared to that ship are light scouts?
  
• Condor and Foxtrot:
  a) Smaller missile payloads (and no cannon in MiG-32) explained by saying that sensor equipment (ARDA) is taking up all the hardpoints
  b) Rather large (for a fighter) geoscape sensor range explained by there being lots of sensor equipment
  
• Sidewinder and Avalanche:
  a) Shorter range explained by saying the size of the sensors (ARDA) able to fit inside a missile can't detect the radiation as well as the aircraft's sensors can (or the base sensors).
  
• Renaming the base building "Radar Array" to "Detection Array" (or "Radiation Detection Array", or "ARDA System")
  a) Keep with continuity established with the Condor, Foxtrot, Sidewinder and Avalanche proposals that involve the ARDA system to detect aliens
  b) Radar wouldn't work with the dish underground anyway; maybe some mumbo-jumbo Adaptive Radiation Detection Array would be able to.
  c) Radar is used by everyone, why can't they track the UFOs as well as we can? It's because we track the UFO radiation leaks, not the radar signatures. This way we don't mistake weather balloons for UFOs.
  
• We've proposed changing the word "clips" to "magazines" (or whatever's applicable), because none of the ammo in the game would be called a clip.
  
• We've noted that the Shrike and Valkyrie are too slow based on their Xenopedia descriptions. Either the ships need a speed boost or the descriptions need to change.
  

[Ishantil]

Sounds good to me.

I believe Chris mentioned somewhere that the Shrike and Valkyrie are supposed to be getting a balance pass at some point.

[GizmoGomez]

Okay, I'll update the status on that issue then.

[Newfr]

Not really. A great deal of their materiel was abject shit, and designed to overtake Western dominated battlefields by sheer weight of numbers; if you haven't picked it up, this has been Soviet/Russian doctrine for a while (and in large part still is).

Kekeke, your reaction is so predictable

Alrighty;

Are we happy with the proposals as they currently are? Anything that needs to be changed? Added?

I have one issue with your ARDA system: you need a clear line of sight to your target for it to work (that's about 10-13 km for a ground based system). While it's ok with missiles even somehow explains that small range (systems can't predict UFO location good enough if you launch missile from over-the-horizon range so firing it from afar is a simple waste of missile) it's rising a question why base ARDA system has such a huge range (possible only for a over-the-horizon radars).

[GizmoGomez]

Also, not-quite-so-random aside...

This is as good a place to bring it up as any. Literally none of the weapons on the list fire from anything that could remotely be called a "clip." I know the developers are (what I assume to be) British civilians, and might not have known better (like the original X-COM dudes), but to lay it out, each of the ballistic weapons would read (using the in-game style we have) Pistol Magazine, Assault Rifle Magazine, Precision Rifle Magazine, Shotgun Shells, Machine Gun Belt.

The most recent infantry weapon that actually fed from clips was a crap Egyptian semi-auto made back in the 50s so they could use up a bunch of surplus rounds that wouldn't work in anything else.

The term "clip" really doesn't fit anywhere in the game, and honestly it looks uninformed. I'll make a list of all of the places in the strings.xml and the Xenopedia where the term "clip" would need to be changed to something else. Also, while I'm at it, "Machinegun" isn't a word. "Machine Gun" is what you're looking for. I'll include those places as well.

I'll make a list of all the places in the game that'd need to be changed:

Xenopedia.xml

Row 12: "...replace the ballistic machinegun." -> "...replace the ballistic machine gun."

Row 23: "...from its clip before..." -> "...from its cell before..."

Row 47: "...the machinegun or..." -> "the machine gun or..."

Row 54: "...them with machinegun fire..." -> "...them with machine gun fire..."

Row 54: "...dual .30 cal machineguns..." -> "...dual .30 cal machine guns..."

Row 60: "... dual .30 cal machineguns..." -> "...dual .30 cal machine guns..."

Row 60: "... than machineguns." -> "...than machine guns."

Row 126: ".50 Cal Machinegun" -> ".50 Cal Machine Gun"

Strings.xml

Row 154: Alien Plasma Clip -> Alien Plasma Cell

Row 156: Machinegun Clip -> Machine Gun Belt

Row 157: Pistol Clip -> Pistol Magazine

Row 158: Assault Rifle Clip -> Assault Rifle Magazine

Row 160: Shotgun Clip -> Shotgun Shells

Row 161: Precision Rifle Clip -> Precision Rifle Magazine

Row 163: MAG Clip -> MAG Magazine

Row 662: "...number of available clips is shown..." -> "...number of available reloads is shown..."

Row 860: MAG Clip -> MAG Magazine

Row 869: Particle Clip -> Particle Cell? (I'm unsure what this item is; ammo for an alien weapon?)

Row 1012: MAG clip -> MAG magazine

Row 1022: Particle clip -> Particle Cell? (Still unsure what this is)

Row 1051: Machinegun -> Machine Gun

Row 1306: "...of a machinegun." -> "...of a machine gun."

Row 1345: "...default machinegun." -> "...default machine gun."

Row 1347: "...machinegun turret." -> "...machine gun turret."

Row 1456: Clipsize: -> Ammo Capacity:

Row 1674: Machinegun -> .30 Cal Machine gun

Row 1717: "Clip Size" -> Ammo Capacity:

Row 1719: "...larger clip, ..." -> "...larger ammo capacity, ..."

Row 1719: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1721: "...has a smaller clip." -> "...has a smaller ammo capacity."

Row 1721: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1723: "...a smaller clip and..." -> "...a smaller ammo capacity and..."

Row 1723: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1724: "Machinegun" -> "Machine Gun"

Row 1725: "Ballistic Machinegun" -> "Ballistic Machine Gun"

Row 1725: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1733: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1735: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1737: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1739: "...smaller clip." -> "...smaller ammo capacity."

Row 1739: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1741: "...smaller clip." -> "smaller ammo capacity."

Row 1741: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1743: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1746: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1758: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1760: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1762: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

Row 1764: "Clip Size:" -> "Ammo Capacity:"

[GizmoGomez]

I have one issue with your ARDA system: you need a clear line of sight to your target for it to work (that's about 10-13 km for a ground based system). While it's ok with missiles even somehow explains that small range (systems can't predict UFO location good enough if you launch missile from over-the-horizon range so firing it from afar is a simple waste of missile) it's rising a question why base ARDA system has such a huge range (possible only for a over-the-horizon radars).

The base ARDA system can detect the radiation through solid matter; it's got a large/sensitive enough array to see even tiny amounts of the radiation (or something like that.) It's not perfect, but it's plausible enough I think.

The planes and missiles would need a relatively unobstructed line of sight (clouds, etc would be alright) because their arrays aren't large/sensitive enough to detect the radiation through more dense material.

I don't think we need to mention line of sight or anything in the descriptions, though. I don't think we have so far, at least.

[Ishantil]

Since the actual type of radiation isn't defined by the game, we don't have to define you it's being detected. We'll have to assume that it's a type of high energy radiation (similar to gamma rays or cosmic rays) that has a unique signature common to the alien technology encountered. The larger your sensor array, the better chance you have at detecting it, and the better you can detect it at long distances.

I know there's a lot of space magic in that description, but...

[GizmoGomez]

Space magic is the best description.

[Elydo]

Red, green or blue?

It could also be offered that the emissions signature is a particular 'blend' of frequencies that need to be identified and isolated from the rest of the noise.

[GizmoGomez]

I think that leaving it the way it is would be sufficient; we don't need to add much description. Besides, the head scientist often "dumbs down" the science for the commander's sake.

Also, nice ME3 reference.

[Elydo]

[whistles innocently]

[DNK]

Condor and Foxtrot:

a) Smaller missile payloads (and no cannon in MiG-32) explained by saying that sensor equipment (ARDA) is taking up all the hardpoints

Why not just say it's an expanded range version, where armaments were sacrificed for more fuel space? That also explains why the jets can travel halfway across the world and back, which is way, way farther than any standard fighter/attack jet. Typical real ranges are under 1000km. These things can go almost 15,000 miles on one tank. That needs far more explaining than the payloads...

b) Rather large (for a fighter) geoscape sensor range explained by there being lots of sensor equipment

There's really no realistic way of explaining the radar/arda ranges in this game. It's a gamey feature. Sometimes, simply ignoring something when explaining everything is better than concocting clearly false nonsense.

Also, for the base ARDA, you could indicate that although there is an array in the base, additional arrays are constructed in the surrounding area, and the base facility is just the most central in the network. Since they are purely passive, there is no concern of the aliens attacking these unprotected outside-base arrays.

Sidewinder and Avalanche:

a) Shorter range explained by saying the size of the sensors (ARDA) able to fit inside a missile can't detect the radiation as well as the aircraft's sensors can (or the base sensors).

This makes no sense. The missiles are guided by the launching craft to their target, or at least most of the way, so that would not be a limiting range factor. Just say that the sensors in the missile were much larger than traditional radar guidance, and as such took up some space for the fuel. Additionally, the warhead is expanded for the harder targets, also taking up fuel space.

PS Ishantil isn't the only other person in this thread, and maybe wait more than 1-2 hours between when you ask for final feedback and you consider that feedback closed next time...

Edited September 4, 2013 by DNK

[GizmoGomez]

I'm sorry, did I say feedback was closed? You must be mistaken.

What gave you that idea?