Biological Weapons!

[C. jejuni]

This just came to my mind, wouldn't it be really cool if we could attack the aliens with microorganisms their bodies can't handle? Obviously you'd have to do some research to know which on es exactly would survive in such an alien environment to begin with and also do harm.

In return they could also develop their own biological weapons that can be used to infect people and weaken them over time, causing death in the long run unless you develop antibiotics. They could even carry a risk of infection! You could have an extra facility that both handles quarantine and antibiotics research, separate from the normal lab scientists.

Wouldn't that be dead cool? Would also give it an extra sinister touch.

On that note I am surprised the aliens aren't given any protection from the alien atmosphere, i.e. helmets or breathing filters. Oversight or artistic freedom?

Edited July 12, 2013 by C. jejuni

[StellarRat]

How is this different than poison gas grenades in a TACTICAL setting? There no diseases I know of that can infect and kill you in a 15 minutes. In a strategic setting this type of thing would be much more useful.

[ThunderGr]

How is this different than poison gas grenades in a TACTICAL setting? There no diseases I know of that can infect and kill you in a 15 minutes. In a strategic setting this type of thing would be much more useful.

This makes you think, how the hell do we know in advance what gas is poisonous for the aliens, without even researching anything about it?..."Do you think it's air you are breathing now?"

[C. jejuni]

This makes you think, how the hell do we know in advance what gas is poisonous for the aliens, without even researching anything about it?..."Do you think it's air you are breathing now?"

Research was mentioned in the first paragraph.

How is this different than poison gas grenades in a TACTICAL setting? There no diseases I know of that can infect and kill you in a 15 minutes. In a strategic setting this type of thing would be much more useful.

Yeah I realised that later too, it was a quick idea I had and thought I had to share it immediately, so it was a bit "unfinished". Toxins are a viable option though.

It would probably be as complicated to implement it in a way that could represent spreading infection amongst UFOs as for humans, but I find the idea of at least having to fight off alien microbes very intriguing, and it makes a whole load of sense.

Even if you wanted to forgo the purposeful warfare; explored UFOs, looted materials, alien corpses that came in contact with people, even and especially alien projectiles hitting soldiers are plausible causes of infection all on their own.

[ThunderGr]

Research was mentioned in the first paragraph.

I was replying to the quote I had included in my post. I thought It was obvious.

[C. jejuni]

Yes, but I thought it was in respect to my idea.

[ThunderGr]

Yes, but I thought it was in respect to my idea.

Toxin weapons worked well with apocalypse. Apparently, they did know a way to kill an alien instantly with that. Poison gas grenades? Sure, if we get gas masks and have the aliens have some, as well, why not.

[Aufklarer]

Wow that thread got confusing quickly!

[StellarRat]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe there are already anti-alien nerve gas grenades in the game. I've never gotten far enough without a crash to get them though.

[C. jejuni]

Wow that thread got confusing quickly!

What confuses you about it?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe there are already anti-alien nerve gas grenades in the game. I've never gotten far enough without a crash to get them though.

I didn't know that, but still it's just the tip of the iceberg. That iceberg would be better modded in though, seems like a lot of additional work to me.

Hopefully someone with the necessary skill will be as intrigued by this idea as I am.

Toxin weapons worked well with apocalypse. Apparently, they did know a way to kill an alien instantly with that. Poison gas grenades? Sure, if we get gas masks and have the aliens have some, as well, why not.

That would be splendid! Though in the end I'm more intrigued by the strategical aspect, i.e. soldiers who skills deteriorate temporarily until a cure is found, infecting each other, maybe even death or uncomfortable after-effects like auto-immune diseases due to molecular mimicry etc.

Additionally you could add a sense of urgency and genuine catastrophe by having geoscape events that tell the tale of epidemics spreading around the world and scientists waging a constant battle against eradication of humanity, it could even affect funding!

There's so much havoc that could be wreaked with this.

[Max_Caine]

StellarRat, nerve gas was actually written up, it has it's own xenopedia entry, art assets, gas animation etc. but I think it was written out, for whatever reason.

EDIT: Unfortunately, there isn't a Damage Over Time effect you can apply.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Max_Caine

[StellarRat]

Toxin weapons worked well with apocalypse. Apparently, they did know a way to kill an alien instantly with that. Poison gas grenades? Sure, if we get gas masks and have the aliens have some, as well, why not.

Toxins are not the same as bio-weapons necessarily. Bio-toxins can kill you quickly and can be made by design or by nature to only affect certain organisms. Penicillin is a bio-toxin for certain bacteria. A true disease that aliens can contract is just that, a disease, it's not the same as a bio-toxin. So, a bio-toxin is a poison that usually comes from a living cell, but poison isn't necessarily a bio-toxin example chlorine gas. Anyway, all I'm saying is that toxin in Apoc may not have been a disease. Well, that ought to be about as clear as mud, crap. Edited July 12, 2013 by StellarRat

[StellarRat]

StellarRat, nerve gas was actually written up, it has it's own xenopedia entry, art assets, gas animation etc. but I think it was written out, for whatever reason.

EDIT: Unfortunately, there isn't a Damage Over Time effect you can apply.

Well, maybe it will get back in. Seems like it would be relatively easy to code.

[Max_Caine]

Sathra has!

[StellarRat]

One would hope this is a very high level weapon because if it's done correctly it should incapacitate then kill whole ship fulls of aliens quite quickly.

[Revoke]

Mod content IMO, could be interesting if implemented well. Im just hoping for a good final build near enough as is (hope it doesnt change much), which is an awesome play through. But im also looking forward to the modders being let loose to take the game in various directions.

multiple human weapon types, nade launchers, mines(increased AI roaming)

Sonic/bio/Rail tech

alien weapon add-ons you could utilise/adapt

something a design up from power suits (small mech?)

Expansion: moon base, solar colonization( sort of an after Xcom)

Hell even a possible apocalyptic/Resident evil re-skin with warring factions or just plain survival, new tech could be added by raiding research facilities or flat out killing an enemy who has advanced tech.

The possibility's are endless!

Looking forward to it.

Edited July 12, 2013 by Revoke

[ThunderGr]

Toxins are not the same as bio-weapons necessarily.

Toxin-weapons are biological weapons. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_Weapons_Convention).The term disease is a loose term(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disease). Any bacterial infection is a disease. Penicillin is a type of fungus(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin), which means it is bacterial in composition.

Well, that ought to be about as clear as mud, crap.

Yeap, just as clear .

[C. jejuni]

NO! Fungi are not bacteria. They do create toxins and cause diseases no less.

Edited July 12, 2013 by C. jejuni
Why not.

[StellarRat]

Toxin-weapons are biological weapons. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_Weapons_Convention).The term disease is a loose term(http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/disease). Any bacterial infection is a disease. Penicillin is a type of fungus(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penicillin), which means it is bacterial in composition.

Yeap, just as clear .

Penicillin is a fungus alright, but it produces a bio-toxin that kills bacteria. I called it Pencillin because that is the commericial name. The fungus itself kills nothing. Just like you can't kill someone without a weapon, like your feet, hammer, gun or whatever.

A toxin (from Ancient Greek: τοξικόν toxikon) is a poisonous substance produced within living cells or organisms;[1][2] man-made substances created by artificial processes are thus excluded. The term was first used by organic chemist Ludwig Brieger (1849–1919). - This is an interesting definition because some of these toxins can surely be made in a lab with no living material. Hmmm....

I never thought of biological weapons as toxins alone. I always thought of them as intentionally distributed diseases like anthrax and Ebola, but I guess the UN does consider them all as one for treaty purposes.

Edited July 12, 2013 by StellarRat

[thothkins]

The toxin grenade was not in the game as of 19.3 according to the researches file.

[ThunderGr]

Penicillin is a fungus alright, but it produces a bio-toxin that kills bacteria. I called it Pencillin because that is the commericial name. The fungus itself kills nothing. Just like you can't kill someone without a weapon, like your feet, hammer, gun or whatever.

Yes, the fungus does kill the bacteria when it is placed with them. This is how they discovered it does so. The way you do the lab tests about that is to place a colony of the bacteria you test(or a drop of their naturally produced waste) in a lab-grown colony of the bacteria you try to kill. The largest the death zone around the test-sample, the highest the effectiveness of the test-bacteria against the target bacteria. After that, depending on the situation, you may or may not include the test-bacteria in the weapon(which could be a pill or an injection, depending on what you are trying to do), it is certain that you will put in the toxin, mixed with some other chemicals, some times, in order to reduce the collateral damage to non-intended targets, like the human cells, in case of an anti-biotic.

A toxin (from Ancient Greek: τοξικόν toxikon) is a poisonous substance produced within living cells or organisms;[1][2] man-made substances created by artificial processes are thus excluded. The term was first used by organic chemist Ludwig Brieger (1849–1919). - This is an interesting definition because some of these toxins can surely be made in a lab with no living material. Hmmm....

I never thought of biological weapons as toxins alone. I always thought of them as intentionally distributed diseases like anthrax and Ebola, but I guess the UN does consider them all as one for treaty purposes.

Biological weapon is any weapon that causes mass damage/death by infecting/damaging the chemistry of the human being, as opposed to damaging the physics of it...Well, it is all technical, I guess. All biological weapons work by intoxicating the living being, weather it is the bacteria themselves or the bacteria-produced toxins. The only difference is that, most of the times, the toxins are more deadly in the AoE, since they contain concentrated substance, while the bacteria/viruses are expected to cause more lasting damage, being able to infect larger masses of people by spreading from victim to victim but in a larger period of time, since they need more time to kill the target.

"Medical Definition of BIOLOGICAL WEAPON

: a harmful biological agent (as a pathogenic microorganism or a neurotoxin) used as a weapon to cause death or disease usually on a large scale "

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/biological%20weapon

Edited July 13, 2013 by ThunderGr

[C. jejuni]

A toxin (from Ancient Greek: τοξικόν toxikon) is a poisonous substance produced within living cells or organisms;[1][2] man-made substances created by artificial processes are thus excluded. The term was first used by organic chemist Ludwig Brieger (1849–1919). - This is an interesting definition because some of these toxins can surely be made in a lab with no living material. Hmmm....

You should be able to synthesise anything in the lab with enough work because the chemistry is the same whether it's in the lab or not. They are still biosynthesised. And they are not "man-made", i.e. created in their current form by man.

The definition makes sense for practical reasons, because dangerous substances constantly created naturally in the world around you -as opposed to only in a small lab over in Kentucky- have to be combated differently and are much more widespread.

Biological weapon is any weapon that causes mass damage/death by infecting/damaging the chemistry of the human being, as opposed to damaging the physics of it...Well, it is all technical, I guess. All biological weapons work by intoxicating the living being, weather it is the bacteria themselves or the bacteria-produced toxins.

That is not technically correct.

Biological weapons are simply weapons using biological means to cause harm, i.e. living organisms or their products. According to your definition nuclear weapons would be biological weapons too because they mess up your DNA -> damaging the chemistry.

Also there are intoxications, toxico-infections, and infections. Intoxication is when you just get a toxin; toxico-infection is when you get a microbe that then produces toxins; infection is when you just get a microbe, but there's no toxin.

They can harm you without toxins too, for example by directly damaging your cells.

Penicillin is a fungus alright

Your initial post was correct on that actually. The fungus is called penicillium, penicillin refers to the antibiotic.

Well this went sorta off-topic fast!

Edited July 13, 2013 by C. jejuni

[StellarRat]

Yes, the fungus does kill the bacteria when it is placed with them. This is how they discovered it does so. The way you do the lab tests about that is to place a colony of the bacteria you test(or a drop of their naturally produced waste) in a lab-grown colony of the bacteria you try to kill.

Yes, but it kills the bacteria using it's own bio-toxin. That's it's weapon. That's what they extracted to make the the drug. I don't know of any fungi or other micro-organisms that physical destroy other creatures with kinetic energy, heat (although I wouldn't be surprised if they existed). It's always done with a chemical/protein/enyzeme of some kind. Of course, I'm discounting larger one celled animals like ameoba that can actually shallow other creatures. Edited July 15, 2013 by StellarRat