Territories

[ThunderGr]

Since the developers have chosen to place the start of the game at an actual date in the history of mankind, I think that there is a lot more work to be done with the territories. The reflecting of the actual status of each country is more important than game convenience from the perspective of development.

- Having eastern Europe as Soviet Union is unacceptable. It is just like having western Europe as U.S.A.

- Having Greece as part of the Middle-East is absurd.

If the game was developed by someone in the U.S. it would be more understandable how you have disregarded sensitive issues that goes with what countries you include in what territory. European developers should have been more understanding about these issues.

Since you have chosen a real setting, you have to have real territories. Eastern Europe should be a separate territory and Greece should be part of West Europe.

I am sure there are more sensitive issues about the territories but these are the ones I can speak about. I leave the rest to be pointed out by others.

EDIT: Instead of trying to have artificially made territories just to keep them roughly equally sized, you should try and adjust the funding of each territory according to size. This is more natural.

Edited July 5, 2013 by ThunderGr

[Max_Caine]

Let me refer you to previous discussions on this matter.

[Name]

If the game was developed by someone in the U.S. it would be more understandable how you have disregarded sensitive issues that goes with what countries you include in what territory. European developers should have been more understanding about these issues.

Since you have chosen a real setting, you have to have real territories. Eastern Europe should be a separate territory and Greece should be part of West Europe.

I am sure there are more sensitive issues about the territories but these are the ones I can speak about. I leave the rest to be pointed out by others.

EDIT: Instead of trying to have artificially made territories just to keep them roughly equally sized, you should try and adjust the funding of each territory according to size. This is more natural.

1. He is from England.

2. That is the worst argument ever. The game takes place on earth. Many books movies games etc take place on earth. Maybe I am the only one that thinks you just using a bad argument to make your idea with has been thoroughly denied sound better.

3. Sensitive? Why would that impact a game what so ever.

3. That is not natural. If you want natural we need economist and psychologist up in here. The reason being economist to deterime how governments funding would be affect. And the psycs to see if countries would join together globally and give large sums of money.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Name
Numbering error.

[ThunderGr]

Let me refer you to previous discussions on this matter.

And in what way does this help? I am referring to the territories as they are in V19 build 3. Some generalizations are acceptable, others are not. Simple as that. You can very well place the U.S.A. of the 1979 in the Chinese Republic territory, in a game, but I am sure the Americans would not like it. So, instead of being such "helpful" maybe you can start making sense.

[ThunderGr]

1. He is from England.

Obviously, I know that. This is what the argument was all about .

2. That is the worst argument ever. The game takes place on earth. Many books movies games etc take place on earth. Maybe I am the only one that thinks you just using a bad argument to make your idea with has been thoroughly denied sound better.

Idea? Tell that to the Czechs that died in the intervention of the USSR. Tell that to the Polish...Gee, you have to learn history!

3. Sensitive? Why would that impact a game what so ever.

Because games are played by people and memories are still fresh. You may not care about your history but I do. And so do many people. You'd better not use an actual setting in a wrong way if you do not want to offend people. It does not matter if it is a game or not, since it is not fictional. The developers have kept stating things have to be one way or the other because of the state things were in 1979. So, they have to do that for territories, as well. Some respect to the history of the nations won't hurt, disrespect will.

Edited July 6, 2013 by ThunderGr

[Max_Caine]

ThunderGr, you're clearly in a very angry state of mind, or you'd see from the links I have posted that people have already had valid concerns about the state of territories and funding blocs in the game long before you saw red about the reassociation of Greece and have made a variety of proposals based on REAL geopolitical associations at the time-of-setting, such as making Warsaw pact countries a separate funding bloc. If you were calmer, you would see that you could use the materials that other people have made (including proposed funding block maps) to support your arguments, and any proposals you would put forward. I know you're upset with me in particular from previous threads, but try and damp down your emotions and actually read what other people have written. It's not fair on them just because I have looked up what other people have done and put that at your disposal that you instantly dismiss it.

[ThunderGr]

ThunderGr, you're clearly in a very angry state of mind, or you'd see from the links I have posted that people have already had valid concerns about the state of territories and funding blocs in the game long before you saw red about the reassociation of Greece and have made a variety of proposals based on REAL geopolitical associations at the time-of-setting, such as making Warsaw pact countries a separate funding bloc. If you were calmer, you would see that you could use the materials that other people have made (including proposed funding block maps) to support your arguments, and any proposals you would put forward. I know you're upset with me in particular from previous threads, but try and damp down your emotions and actually read what other people have written. It's not fair on them just because I have looked up what other people have done and put that at your disposal that you instantly dismiss it.

Oh, well. Maybe you are half-right. I can assure you that I am not upset with you for saying your opinion, at any thread.

I do not disregard the opinions of others in these threads you have linked to. I have read several proposals before. All UFO-related games, and the OG, kept the territories loose and did not specify an actual historical point, whatsoever and they were right to do so.

There are many reasonable propositions in these threads and lots of good arguments, yet all have been disregarded in the name of making things easier for the development of the game...If they weren't this thread would not have come to being.

I decided to start this thread, half because of the unreasonable placing of Greece in the Middle-Eastern Territory, half because I saw the development goes from being rough to being unreasonable, disregarding all previous arguments about territories...

EDIT: Seeing the huge area the USSR expands to and the Europe being, at least, half of it, I cannot but wonder in what way it is justified for eastern Europe to be part of USSR in the name of "keeping the territories roughly at equal size", as was stated in the development thread by Chris...

Edited July 6, 2013 by ThunderGr

[svidangel]

I'm american and I... hey wait a twinkie. omg.

[Name]

Lots of speal and quotes

Sorry bout point 1 I thought that was would not should.

I do care about history very much in fact. (right pointless defense out of the way. TIME FOR POINTLESS OFFENCE!)

I will gladly tell that to any Czechs or Polish denizens that step in my way. Setting are being misrepresented in a hurtful way go bicker about cod depiction of the middle east and the war on terror. That is recent. Now I am not sure what war/conflict/police action you are talking about. (*shrug I use my time to search for much more important things then things that affect Russian and Czech relations )

I do not even believe this is disrespect. I am out of things to say.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Name

[ThunderGr]

Lots of things that do not make sense

Hmmm...So, you think the territories are well thought of and make sense as a setting for the 1979 beginning of the game...Well, if this is the case, it is interesting, since you are the only one, so far, that thinks so.

[Name]

Hmmm...So, you think the territories are well thought of and make sense as a setting for the 1979 beginning of the game...Well, if this is the case, it is interesting, since you are the only one, so far, that thinks so.

Well I my honest opinion. They do not matter and anyone who finds it important is looking for small things and trying to give advice on how to improve the game. Only these TOXIC INFLUENCES do not phrase it as advice. It is always "DO AS I SAY OR PEOPLE I WONT NAME WILL BE DISPLEASED!"

[ThunderGr]

Since I am a Greek national and since it made a really bad impression to me that Greece was put with the Middle-East...out of nowhere...I looked at the rest of the territories to see if other such absurd things were done. So, why not put the U.S.A. in the Chinese Republic territory? Since it is not important and they are "little things" I could accept Greece as part of the middle east if the U.S.A. was part, let's say, of the Eastern Asia...Believe it or not, it is the same thing.

[Name]

Cool story. Now as silly as you find Greece clumped with the middle east silly. Your comparison about america being clumped with asia is downright stupid. (I am aware that that was your point...) But the distance of USA to China is much much greater than say Greece to middle eastern countries.

In terms of gameplay it would make 0 difference ZERO You would loose/gain the same amount of funding no matter the regions. If it doesnt impact gameplay why would it matter.

HELLO MODDERS! Are regions modable? This may help our friends who dont find the regions suitable to their palette.

P.S Did admins stop locking topics? Or do they just get kicks out of this. (maybeee eventually somthing productive will come of this thoughhhhh)

Edited July 6, 2013 by Name

[ThunderGr]

But the distance of USA to China is much much greater than say Greece to middle eastern countries.

Did I say Eastern Asia? I think I did. The proximity of the American continent to Asia is easy to see by looking at the Globe. Alaska was a part of Russia(before being sold to the U.S.) for a reason.

Whatever, it is always easy to disregard other peoples national issues, not so easy when it concerns your own country. The worst case scenario is not to play the game. 20$ in the bin...rats. Next time I will wait for release and previews. It could have been worst though.

Edited July 6, 2013 by ThunderGr

[MisterLock]

I'm from Romania.So I'm from Eastern Europe.I i'm not mad by the fact that the map is still W.I.P and it's gonna be worked on...I mean damn...Not even Bucharest is on the map...And it's the capital of my Country...

[smoitessier]

Ok what's wrong with Eastern Europe being part of the Soviet Union? Would you rather it was part of Europe? Also if the middle East is too small and needs Greece, why didn't the territory up to Kabul be taken instead, Afghanistan, and even Pakistan strikes me as middle east more than Asian?

[thothkins]

From previous experience this is likely to run a full range of responses, and there are any number of variables.

For me, there's no contest between having funding nations of more equivalent size (they aren't anyway) and what appear as schoolboy errors (I know they are intentional) on the map.

Greece being in the middle east is wrong on so many cultural, geographical and political levels. It looks like a clunker, even though we know why it's been done.

When issues around formerly Eastern bloc countries came up, I can only recall a few responses - 1 strongly wanting it changed and at least 1 who wasn't terribly bothered.

If this was the final map, how would people feel?

Max put up a couple of very good links at alternatives to how the funding nations work. I think that approach makes for a much deeper game. But that doesn't help Greece or the others much.

If the issue is that North America and the Soviet Union get more than their fair share of fly overs and alien activity, then:-

1) Split those regions into Canada & North America, and Soviet Union & Warsaw Pact, where the alien activities in the latter of each are scored differently. We don't necessarily even have to see the splits. It could just be in the background.

[aside] An extended version of that, would enable all sorts of geopolitical fun [/aside]

2) Adjust the funding variables accordingly. So N America gets 1.8 instead of 1.2 or whatever it used to be. But 1.8 is the cap so that the player doesn't just camp there and reap the rewards.

At least you could take a quick tour round the map and not go "Huh?"

[Name]

Sorry bout that I read the China part and apparently ignored the east aisa part. No its not easy to disregard other national issues. As it clearly bothers people who believe that place and year of a game should affect region blocking. (I myself throw out real life cultural/economical/political issue from and entertainment genre because I would never play things like call of duty)

Sorry to hear about you not playing the game anymore. Will you still check the forums? Maybe some modder will find a way to change regions.

[ThunderGr]

Sorry bout that I read the China part and apparently ignored the east aisa part. No its not easy to disregard other national issues. As it clearly bothers people who believe that place and year of a game should affect region blocking. (I myself throw out real life cultural/economical/political issue from and entertainment genre because I would never play things like call of duty)

It is all related to context. I have played Panzer General and the invasion of the Axis into the Balkans. I also have played Medieval Total war as the Turks. As long as the games(that are not fictional or what if scenarios) do not alter the essence of the history of an area, you can disregard all other issues. Placing, for example, the U.S. as an Axis ally during WWII in a real setting game, would make lots of people angry, while doing so in a "What if" scenario, would be accepted with no issues.

Sorry to hear about you not playing the game anymore. Will you still check the forums? Maybe some modder will find a way to change regions.

Stop playing the game will be a worst case scenario. I really expect the developers to reevaluate their priorities and return Greece to Europe as well as being more respectful to other historical issues of the chosen setting.

@smoitessier

The issue about Eastern Europe being part of the USSR is that, simply, they were not. At least, no more than Western Europe was part of the U.S.A. Just like the U.S. was always in need to keep their allies in line, without disturbing their sovereignty too much, so was the U.S.S.R. with their Eastern European allies.

@thothkins

The issue whether someone from the Eastern Europe is bothered by it being part of the U.S.S.R. depends on the country. I would expect Polish, Czechs and Hungarians to be more sensitive than the others, considering their disposition towards Russia, in general or the Communist Regime, specifically. And, again, there is the matter of age. Younger people will be less inclined to care, at all, knowing the efforts that are taken everywhere in the world to remove various historical events from the history books that are being taught in the schools.

I agree that there has to be a better way to get over the technical issues of the implementation without messing the territory distribution in such a way that it causes various types of negative emotional reactions by people.

@MisterLock

Athens is not on the Map, either...

I expect that the capitals of the countries will make it, before release. The O.G. did have all the capitals.

[thothkins]

The issue whether someone from the Eastern Europe is bothered by it being part of the U.S.S.R. depends on the country. I would expect Polish, Czechs and Hungarians to be more sensitive than the others, considering their disposition towards Russia, in general or the Communist Regime, specifically. And, again, there is the matter of age. Younger people will be less inclined to care, at all, knowing the efforts that are taken everywhere in the world to remove various historical events from the history books that are being taught in the schools.

you typed out all the things I was thinking of when I went with "any number of variables" as the easy option

I recall they were from the same country. That's what made it interesting, even if we know nothing else about them. It's no way to get a feel for the prevailing mood of a country to it's history, but it's a small reminder to remember exactly the variables you pointed out.

Athens is not on the Map, either...I expect that the capitals of the countries will make it, before release. The O.G. did have all the capitals

Ah, you've not heard that, in game, Athens got bought by Riyadh. It's now only used at weekends. Welcome to the new funding bloc.

Looking forward to Map Mod where Iceland won the Cod Wars using alien tech from the '50s and go on to create a Scandinavian funding bloc, or where the US lost to Japan.

[Name]

I really expect the developers to reevaluate their priorities and return Greece to Europe as well as being more respectful to other historical issues of the chosen setting.

Thats funny. Do you write your own jokes? I do not think chris will be changing this seeing as he has stated he wouldn't.

[ThunderGr]

Thats funny. Do you write your own jokes? I do not think chris will be changing this seeing as he has stated he wouldn't.

He hasn't stated any such thing. Greece was only reassigned in this built. At any case, yes, it seems that I write my own jokes. I hope you had a good laugh, at least.

Edited July 6, 2013 by ThunderGr

[GizmoGomez]

I'll be honest, I don't think that Chris should be "reevaluating his priorities" in regards to Greece and other misplaced countries. That seems a little harsh. I mean, the game comes first, and that's what he's working on.

That being said, I actually agree with you ThunderGr, in that countries should be more accurately placed. Keep in mind, this is a beta, so things are being balanced. One large push as of late has been standardizing everything to the same level (aliens all have the same stats, the funding nations all have the same funding amounts, etc). This means that throwing Greece into the Middle East was simply to make the balancing easier. Once the balancing is on it's way, then changing it back to Europe should happen.

Also, I agree with splitting the USSR up into the USSR and the Warsaw Pact. For one, it's more culturally sensitive, it's much more accurate to the setting (which is a huge selling point, imo), and once balancing is on it's way it'll be easier to do. Also, it's less important, but making Mexico part of NA and not CA would be nice, but I'm not concerned about it. After all, they're funding regions, as in, areas of the globe that fund you. Geographic regions don't necessarily have to be a part of that.

[Name]

What why on earth would the game come first! We need a realistic game that is sensitive to peoples beliefs!

Are region blocks moddable?

[ThunderGr]

What why on earth would the game come first! We need a realistic game that is sensitive to peoples beliefs!

Are region blocks moddable?

Beliefs? Right. Now reality is a belief! Let's see what comes next.