Geoscape Balance Discussion v19 Experimental Build 3

[Korgath]

My main issue with the aerial combat just now is that I'm finding it hard to justify having condors around at all.

They should still be usefull but in my current playthrough I've got 3 Mig's and 3 Condor at my initial base and I just throw the MiG's at everything. They can take out fighter squadrons without any risk at all. A squad of 3 can take out Medium ships. I suppose the condor could be used vs the bombers but a single volley from a MiG takes them down anyway. The other thing is that the condor really struggles to actually engage some ships as well which doesn't help when you want to send a mixed squadron with say 2 Condor and a MiG.

Really the only time I find myself using the condor is when the MiG's are already out fighting or just back from an engagement.

Maybe I'm taking a brute force approach to this but prior to this patch I was quite happy with using condor for some things and MiG's for others but the Condor are too slow, don't do enough damage and are too frail. I would rather be using 6 MiG's just now at the end of the day over splitting it 50/50 on hanger space. Having said that I have disabled escorts due to the bug with that atm so Condor might be useful against ships with escorts but I just don't see it happening.

[StellarRat]

My main issue with the aerial combat just now is that I'm finding it hard to justify having condors around at all.

They should still be usefull but in my current playthrough I've got 3 Mig's and 3 Condor at my initial base and I just throw the MiG's at everything. They can take out fighter squadrons without any risk at all. A squad of 3 can take out Medium ships. I suppose the condor could be used vs the bombers but a single volley from a MiG takes them down anyway. The other thing is that the condor really struggles to actually engage some ships as well which doesn't help when you want to send a mixed squadron with say 2 Condor and a MiG.

Really the only time I find myself using the condor is when the MiG's are already out fighting or just back from an engagement.

Maybe I'm taking a brute force approach to this but prior to this patch I was quite happy with using condor for some things and MiG's for others but the Condor are too slow, don't do enough damage and are too frail. I would rather be using 6 MiG's just now at the end of the day over splitting it 50/50 on hanger space. Having said that I have disabled escorts due to the bug with that atm so Condor might be useful against ships with escorts but I just don't see it happening.

Well, the Condors I think, are really only meant to get you started. You have to remember too that when you have multiple bases or one base with a lot of hangers it is possible to swarm the larger ships with multiple waves of Condors. Damage on aliens in cumulative so if you were in dire straights you could down some larger ships with a bunch of Condors to get the ball rolling again. If Condors are feel and Migs cheap you'll never be completely stuck. Remember, Aaron has assured us that smaller ships will continue to appear throughout the game so there should always be some targets for the older planes if you end up with all your fancy alien tech ships out of action.

[kabill]

I wonder whether some of the advantages of the MiG over the Condor come from experience. As a new player, I've found myself much prefering Condors and will use them against pretty much anything I've encountered so far (up to Mediums - not so far through!). I wouldn't think twice about intercepting three fighters with 2 Condors (except they can't always catch them!), but I'm reluctant to use two MiGs for the same purpose.

The reason for this - I think - is that I've not perfected missile use yet. I assume, once that's mastered, that you can make pretty much every missile count at which point you're sorted and the air game is solved. But if (like me) you lack the experience to get the timing and approach right, there's a fair chance that some of your missiles are going to miss and with MiGs that means you've lost the fight. In other words, Condors seem to me to be more forgiving owing to their cannon and dodge and I think this gives them a role at least for less expert players.

[Dranak]

The arguments from the point of view of realism don't take into account that there are lots of other even less realistic things going on in this game than recovering and repairing a crashed interceptor; how can you be so worked up about this when, for example, soldiers in the ground combat can only see a few dozen meters in broad daylight? Or the aliens don't just bombard the Xenonauts base from space?

Those examples are things we've already accepted as standard for the genre, and XCOM games in particular. I think the reason there's so much outcry over this change in particular is that having something that can not be destroyed runs very contrary to our expectations for an XCOM game, where one of the standard points is that everything can be destroyed and the game can be lost.

This change is aimed at lessening the burden placed on the rest of the game, but I wonder if it isn't still slightly missing the mark as your initial expenses are still high. To get a squadron of Foxtrots up (the only plane currently worth building in the early/mid game) costs 750K. By comparison, the total cost of getting a reasonably equipped (about 50% armored and laser equipped) ground team operational from nothing is about the same to slightly higher (700k for about half equipped, including all base structures and chinook, around 950 fully armed/armored). Plasma weapons change that, obviously but so do Marauders.

[RavenX]

To be honest RavenX posted this exact idea at almost the same time as I did although I came up with it independently from him. Also, my IQ is only 120 something. So although, RavenX and I may appear to be Newton and Leibniz we probably aren't.

Personally, I like the idea of having alien stuff recoverable, including vehicles and even potentially personal armor and infantry weapons (they are very expensive at the higher levels too), but I think the just having the planes and vehicles recoverable is good enough and probably solves most of the problem. The only way to know is to try it.

I actually wouldn't have a problem with Condors being "free" even. To me they are just F-16s with souped up engines. Over 4500 have been built to date. It's not like they're hard to find.

Indeed. I read about the topic and then saw Chris's post on it after I had replied in the other thread so I posted my reply in both. Honestly I didn't even read any of the replies in the threads other than the OP's of both posts.

Am I incredibly smart? Yes. However I'm also incredibly lazy sometimes...lol.

Note: I'm just kidding on the smart thing though I would be curious to see a updated IQ score. The last time I was tested I was 25 and I'm 35 now. I'd be interested to see if there are indeed any changes (at least on paper) between then and now. Also, I'm not a math wiz. Not that I'm bad at math, I just don't remember a lot of my formulas for problems anymore as I haven't had to use them in years.

[StellarRat]

Another simple solution is to make the XCom aircraft very hard to shoot down, so that only an idiot could die. I'd be OK with that. Basically, it would go something like this, you engage the enemy, you fire everything you've got at them possibly taking a few hits, the alien ship doesn't go down (you've realized that you need better/more AC now), so you retreat, damaged, but still alive. That way only a fool that was willing to just stay in combat with no remaining missiles or ammo could get themselves shot down OR your planes simply automatically disengage at this point because the pilots obviously have more sense than you do.

[GizmoGomez]

I had an idea:

Concerning immortal aircraft:

Basically, nothing would change from the developer's system (which they'd like, since it's what they know will work well) but the lore/reasoning behind it would change.

So, under my idea, the reason we can recover corsair-and-later aircraft is because they have alien alloys in their construction (and that should be made obvious by the research reports).

However, the question arises, what about the Migs and Condors? Why are they automatically recovered after 72 hours and repaired, fully flyable after being shot down? They have no alloys, so the above explanation doesn't work.

Here is my answer/solution:

Condors:

They be made available for free, and be auto-ordered after they're destroyed.

Basically, after a Condor gets shot down, the game automatically decommissions that aircraft (freeing the hanger) and orders another Condor to replace it (for free, because they are free). This would produce the same effect as the immortal Condor would, but would explain why we get a fully repaired condor after the one we sent out was shot to pieces.

This would even give the Condor an advantage: because the one ordered is new, it doesn't need a repair time on top of the 72 hour delivery time. This means that a Condor destroyed will always be ready for action sooner than any other airframe, making it more valuable and able to be used in swarms (as Condors should be).

Changes from current "immortal Condor" system:

Condors are free.

Condors don't take repair time after the "recovery" 72 hours to be fully repaired and ready for combat (making them effective swarm planes, which is basically their intended purpose after you get better planes. This also allows you to recover from losses more rapidly early game, helping players just starting out.)

Aircraft Weapons:

Some might say: what happens if a Condor is destroyed while carrying a gatling laser?

Well, the gatling laser survived the crash and it was recovered, simple as that.

Changes from current "immortal Condor" system:

None, cannons would continue to be fully recovered after crashes.

Foxtrots:

To make this work better, a new free item would have to be added, "purchasable" through the hangers (like Condors): Foxtrot Airframe.

The airframe would arrive in 72 hours, and would be stored like a finished aircraft in a hanger. The hanger art for the aircraft equip screen would be the stage one Foxtrot construction photo.

The Foxtrot manufacture project would be modified, removing the money cost but adding a Foxtrot Airframe cost, so you could only do it if you have an airframe already in your hanger. The manufacture time would also be reduced significantly.

That's the only mechanic change, everything else is still the same.

The Foxtrot would still act like an immortal interceptor; it would have a 72 hour recovery time, and X amount of repair time.

However, the game description of what's going on would be different.

Lore:

When a Foxtrot is shot down, the game says that another airframe has been ordered (72 hour recovery time) and when it arrives (recovered) the airframe is finished (repair time) and made ready to fly, good as new (because it is new).

Because Foxtrots are human planes, the airframes are provided for free (and this should be made clear in the research report).

What costs manufacture time is outfitting the provided airframe with Xenonaut technology.

When a Foxtrot is shot down, a new airframe is ordered, which arrives in 3 days. The remaining "repair time" is time spent in the hanger modifying the airframe for Xenonaut use.

This would make it take exactly the same amount of time to be ready for combat as the immortal Foxtrot system, and work exactly the same way concerning planes shot down and recovered. It would just offer a different explanation as to why it works that way.

Changes from the current "immortal Foxtrot" system:

Add item: Foxtrot Airframe

Make Foxtrot manufacture cost one airframe and take less time and $0.

Research Description Changes.

Anyway, that's my idea. Hope it makes sense, and wasn't too confusing.

[CellNav]

Allow me to expand on StellarRat's and GizmoGomez idea ...

Both of you have described the basic trend in technology when it comes to building your airforce. When new technology come along the staple of your force shifts one tier up. Old tech either gets painted a bright orange and becomes a target drone or it's sent off to training squadrons. The current tech is your work horse and your newest tech is reserved for special missions.

So ... when the game begins, the Condors are mortal because they are your work horse. When you research Foxtrots, the Condor becomes immortal because they are sent off to the other countries. The cost of the Condor drops (perhaps 50% cost) because it is mass produced. When we research Corsair, the tech tier shifts again. Condor's revert back to mortal because they are no longer mass produced, the Foxtrot becomes immortal with a 50% price reduction ... The shift continues on and on, but the immortal aircraft will always be the one that's one tier lower than the newest tech.

Edited July 9, 2013 by CellNav
typo

[GizmoGomez]

But that isn't in line with what the developers are looking for, which is making the air combat less important through making planes immortal.

The idea I posted above leaves the grand majority of the aircraft alone, because they have perfectly reasonable explanations as to why we can recover them (alien alloys are very hard to destroy).

The only differences would be Condors are made free (because they are human tech, and all other human tech is free) and auto-ordered upon destruction (resulting in almost the same thing as the indestructible condors, and thus keeping the air combat balanced) and the manufacturing of foxtrots are tweaked a bit (and are also made free, they just require some manufacture time.)

[GizmoGomez]

BTW: I'm posting my idea as it's own thread in the suggestions section.

[CellNav]

BTW: I'm posting my idea as it's own thread in the suggestions section.

I found it, thanks. Don't forget to give a link here.

BTW, I posted an idea about adding pilot skill and tactics when resolving air combat and I included your "emergency disengage" idea in the hopes you'll reply ... my idea ... Have you given up with that? I don't think it would over complicate the formula as long as the player is given a breakdown of all the modifiers before executing the intercept.

Edited July 9, 2013 by CellNav

[GizmoGomez]

Well, I have realized the complexity in making the air combat balanced and less important (compared to the ground combat, that is), and as part of that realization I have accepted the developers reasoning for making planes recoverable.

A large part of this was realizing that planes made of alien alloys would have the strength of UFOs, and thus could actually survive such crashes.

Now, if we can have equally good explanations for the two non-alloy aircraft in the game, then that'll make me and others all the happier.

As far as your pilot attributes idea, there have been other ideas similar posted, and none have come to fruition. I don't think that any will at this point, and it would actually be contrary to what the developers are looking for at the moment, which is a less important air combat. Adding skills and special abilities and the like would make the air combat more important by making it equal to the ground combat in terms of there being skills, experience gains, etc.

It would be an interesting idea, and I would enjoy playing with it, but it's not what the developers are looking for at the moment, I'm afraid.

I'm flattered that you liked my Emergency Disengage idea, though.

That I'm giving up on, actually, since it's not going to get in, and because it goes against the ideas of the developers at this time.

[RawCode]

A large part of this was realizing that planes made of alien alloys would have the strength of UFOs, and thus could actually survive such crashes.

lore states that every xenonaut craft made with allien tech to provide resistance versus allien weapons, just like lowgrade allenium used for free explosives and medkits, low grade alloys used for condors and foxtrots...

[oatmeal]

When I played the latest test build I was surprised by the immortal airplanes. In a way I could see where the devs wanted to go with this decision, but I feel it shows a lack of imagination or laziness.

The way I remember the Air Combat being in the original X-Com was as a pacing mechanic. If you could keep up your research and build the latest fighter tech then you would have no trouble at all taking the aliens from the skies. If however you made a mess of your resource/research management then the aliens would win. Just as it is important to keep up with your soldier weapon/armour tech or to keep your veteran soldiers alive and train newbies. And this makes sense as the game is on a clock, if you're behind you lose!

The way I experienced the AC in v18 was fine for me. The mechanics work, are fun and immersive. You get to interact with your planes now. Great! The only problem I had with the airplanes was that they're 1. too expensive 2. take too long to build 3. take too long to upgrade.

What this shows us is a simple balancing issue. Not much else.

As we all know most of the game is still heavily unbalanced. The issues related to the AC are, from my perspective, related mostly to time issues. Whenever you make a mistake and lose an aircraft it takes too long to replace it and it's too costly. The invasion also ramps up way too fast in regards to the tech development. The first medium ships are out before I have upgraded rockets (although now I know to rush for that tech it's a bit better) let alone any new type of alien aircraft of my own design.

(This is in v18) I resolved these issues in quite a simple matter and it made the game much more playable for me. I reduced the cost for the starting aircrafts, Condor and MIG, and upped the starting budget to 2 million. Also I slowed down the invasion speed to take a fair bit longer. This allows a bit more leeway in developing the proper tech to keep up with the alien invasion and to pass the checkpoints. The only thing it did not fix was the issue that if you lose a battle then the impact and consequently are not able to take down a UFO it will heavily impact your budget from the involved nation. But this problem seems to be a different balance issue.

A list of simple solutions to 'fixing' AC without a trick of immortal aircraft (which only fixes a monetary issue.....):

- Make aircraft cheaper;

- Make aircraft build times shorter;

- Reduce health of enemy UFO/Increase weapon damage of human tech;

- Move up aircraft tech in the techtree;

- Reduce invasion ramp up speed.

A combination of factors is probably needed as money seems to be this game's biggest problem, but reducing the ramp up speed has my preference because it has other positive effects as well. Such as that it allows for more income than just 8-12 months so that you can actually build a second base somewhere.

As for how to find the proper balance for the AC. Treat it as what it is, a check point. Plot the invasion curve against the research progress curve, whenever the aliens get new aircraft the human aircraft tech should get a proportional upgrade too or should be very close to it.

Edited July 10, 2013 by oatmeal

[Gauddlike]

How would aircraft cannon be handled in your systems?

They are basically the only remaining part of air combat that uses the old system so if you fit any kind of upgraded cannon to a Condor it would be lost when it was destroyed which is unlike the current system.

Currently as the craft is never destroyed the upgraded weapon is never lost.

Maybe the research or manufacturing job should just add the best cannon as a permanent upgrade like the missiles?

[GizmoGomez]

lore states that every xenonaut craft made with allien tech to provide resistance versus allien weapons, just like lowgrade allenium used for free explosives and medkits, low grade alloys used for condors and foxtrots...

Condors and Foxtrots have a magnesium alloy, NOT alien alloys. They'd still be shredded if they crashed into the ground.

Alien alloys, however, are just insane. Those planes conceivably could survive an impact, considering the UFO crashes and how durable those are.

[GizmoGomez]

How would aircraft cannon be handled in your systems?

They are basically the only remaining part of air combat that uses the old system so if you fit any kind of upgraded cannon to a Condor it would be lost when it was destroyed which is unlike the current system.

Currently as the craft is never destroyed the upgraded weapon is never lost.

Maybe the research or manufacturing job should just add the best cannon as a permanent upgrade like the missiles?

Well, there are a few options:

a) Have the research replace the old cannons with the new, making them all available for free.

b) Make the cannons recoverable, so that you get them back from the wreckage of your Condor (because any other craft would be recovered normally). (This is what I thought I put up there. Maybe I forgot to add it. )

c) Let the cannons carried by Condors be destroyed (not a good idea, because it penalizes you for using Condors, and they have penalties enough.)

I initially proposed B, but A could work as well. Making a the chosen method would further simplify the air combat, and make it so that improved cannons aren't penalized with a construction time/cost whereas improved missiles aren't. That, I could support.

EDIT:

In fact, I do support making cannons free. Because missiles are all free, they're a more economical choice than cannons. I don't like this. It doesn't make sense.

Edited July 10, 2013 by GizmoGomez

[GizmoGomez]

Here is my post, sorry about taking a while to post the link.

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/6313-Slight-Tweak-to-Current-Interceptor-Recovery-System-Keeps-balance-and-realism-too

[Mytheos]

lore states that every xenonaut craft made with allien tech to provide resistance versus allien weapons, just like lowgrade allenium used for free explosives and medkits, low grade alloys used for condors and foxtrots...

But you dont get the Alloys or the ability to use alloys right off the bat

[Dranak]

lore states that every xenonaut craft made with allien tech to provide resistance versus allien weapons, just like lowgrade allenium used for free explosives and medkits, low grade alloys used for condors and foxtrots...

Actually the lore states that the Condor/Foxtrot are armored with normal human materials that are believed to hold up to plasma weapons better (such as magnesium). There are 0 alien alloys of any sort in those two aircraft.

[antlan87]

Anyone else have the walls of the spaceships missing sometimes in the new beta update? Not even changing the height level seems to bring them back for me.

[StellarRat]

Actually the lore states that the Condor/Foxtrot are armored with normal human materials that are believed to hold up to plasma weapons better (such as magnesium). There are 0 alien alloys of any sort in those two aircraft.

Magnesium? That would be nearly my last choice as a defense against a high temperature weapon. It will burn in the atmosphere. You can light up with a match. LOL! Some type of ferro-ceramic composite would be a MUCH better choice.

[Mytheos]

Magnesium? That would be nearly my last choice as a defense against a high temperature weapon. It will burn in the atmosphere. You can light up with a match. LOL! Some type of ferro-ceramic composite would be a MUCH better choice.

[April 2013]

Japanese scientists have developed two strong, nonflammable magnesium alloys that could be used in aircraft construction.

Magnesium, a lightweight metal, is not currently used in airplane bodies because it can easily catch fire.

But Yoshihito Kawamura, a materials science professor at Kumamoto University, and his colleagues said April 17 they have overcome that weakness.

One of the two magnesium alloys contains an undisclosed rare earth element as an ingredient. It remains strong even at high temperatures and can withstand temperatures of up to 875 degrees before igniting.

The other alloy contains a non-rare earth element and has an ignition temperature of at least 1,050 degrees.

It is far fetched for 1980, but....it is possible at least.

[StellarRat]

[April 2013]

Japanese scientists have developed two strong, nonflammable magnesium alloys that could be used in aircraft construction.

Magnesium, a lightweight metal, is not currently used in airplane bodies because it can easily catch fire.

But Yoshihito Kawamura, a materials science professor at Kumamoto University, and his colleagues said April 17 they have overcome that weakness.

One of the two magnesium alloys contains an undisclosed rare earth element as an ingredient. It remains strong even at high temperatures and can withstand temperatures of up to 875 degrees before igniting.

The other alloy contains a non-rare earth element and has an ignition temperature of at least 1,050 degrees.

It is far fetched for 1980, but....it is possible at least.

875 degrees or 1050 degrees is nothing in a military setting. It's fine if you don't plan to have anyone shooting at you, but many weapons will generate way more heat than in the terminal phase.

[Mytheos]

875 degrees or 1050 degrees is nothing in a military setting. It's fine if you don't plan to have anyone shooting at you, but many weapons will generate way more heat than in the terminal phase.

While the plasma on the sun is the hottest we know of in the natural world, manufactured plasma is much hotter. Several machines called tokamaks create fusion reactions in labs around the world. The ITER tokamak, a fusion machine, is currently under construction in France. ITER, an international coalition of scientists from six countries and the European Union, hopes to use the tokamak to test ideas for fusion energy production. The tokamak will use magnetic forces to heat two hydrogen isotopes to more than 150 million degrees Celsius (about 270 million degrees Fahrenheit). This will break the gas down into plasma. As in a star, this superheated plasma will allow light elements to fuse and yield energy

I have always thought Plasma weapons in the game would be more shockingly powerful myself, so no arguments there...and I heard people saying to make boxes stronger lol.

I keep thinking what part of Plasma Weapon dont you understand?