so I just flew over a field in a chinook and I have no idea where the nearest...

[Max_Caine]

Photos have to be developed first! Shrikes don't have any windows except for the cockpit. Valkyries don't have windows except for the cockpit and use drop-pods, so the crew don't ever get close to the LZ. Does that mean the map should be blanked out for these dropships, then?

[ThunderGr]

No. One of the first satellites "capable" of this would be the Corona. And that ejected containers with photos from space to the atmosphere. By the time the photo was collected the mission would be over.

Does any one know the capabilities of spy satellites during the 80s

And I assume the aliens would have gotten rid of the space junk (including satellites) that were in the way to entering our beloved atmoshpere.

Maybe so. However, in a real situation, no aircraft would be able to match the UFO crafts and the aliens would not foolishly send small scouts first and escalate as we close the technological gap. They would attack full power at once, or, using the backstory of the UFO:Aftermath, just release biochemicals, and let them kill most of the earth's population, then proceed. UFO: Aftermaths backstory was pretty good, since it would explain why the aliens did not exterminate the humans as they did not care to capture the planet.

In our story, the aliens are very advanced but we can still detect their crafts using '70s technology, we can fly a Chinook for hundreds of miles without it being detected by them and shot down and we can down their UFOs using our obsolete technology...Since we accept the aliens are that stupid, we can also assume they ignored the satellites, just like they did with the rest of our communications (since we can still use computers and phones, for example, as well as radars and radio-communications) as "irrelevant".

At any case, RawCode is right, photos can be taken from the chinook and I cannot recall any military mission taking place without the squads being briefed about the map details, during the 20th century(that includes WWI and WWII).

Edited June 29, 2013 by ThunderGr

[Wintermist]

Oh, just posted something in the ideas part about this issue lol. Now I feel daft for not spotting this thread first.

[Name]

....

I dont even think they would go as far to use biochemicals. Just do some math and hurl asteroids at us... But now this is becoming a suspension of disbelief fight

But our chinook can be shot down. Very easily I might add.

Hmmm briefed before hand. Life say all those missions in world war 1 and 2 that were planned months in advance.... Yeah I totally see your point.

Now lets say Xenonauts is like swat or crs or whatever. They are supposed to respond quickly in the event of alien incursions. And it isnt like they can pull up the lay of the land because of lots of barriers. (including but not limited to language barriers, bureaucracy, stupidity, etc, etc)

Wintermist: There have been too many threads about fow. this isnt even the third one Nother ever changes. It is just all for the ego stroking and luls.

[ThunderGr]

But our chinook can be shot down. Very easily I might add.

It can, but rarely so. And they are thinking about removing the possibility altogether.

Hmmm briefed before hand. Life say all those missions in world war 1 and 2 that were planned months in advance.... Yeah I totally see your point.

Only the great scale missions like the Invasion of Normandy were planned months in advance. Most missions had to be prepared very quickly. The war only lasted 5 years during which several hundreds, if not thousands of missions took place all over the globe.

Now lets say Xenonauts is like swat or crs or whatever. They are supposed to respond quickly in the event of alien incursions. And it isnt like they can pull up the lay of the land because of lots of barriers. (including but not limited to language barriers, bureaucracy, stupidity, etc, etc)

The first things S.W.A.T. troops are being briefed about is the goal of the mission and the map details of the location where the mission is taking place.

[Name]

The first things S.W.A.T. troops are being briefed about is the goal of the mission and the map details of the location where the mission is taking place.

THATS GREAT! But we have the goals 1. Kill all aliens. 2. Hold the ufo for 5 turns.

And xenonauts cant get the lay of the land easilly though. photos need to be developed. satellites take to long. And the aliens shooting at the chinook force it to land

[Wintermist]

Yeah but you still get to look outside as you approach. You would get a pretty good idea what it looks like. That's what I think anyway. Hell, even if you didn't you could see pretty damn far once you land.

[Gauddlike]

SWAT teams also operate in a relatively small area where the detailed plans of every building and area are easily available within minutes.

That is not the case for every farmhouse or patch of desert on the globe which would be the Xenonauts operational area.

For Xenonauts missions you are the first person on the ground.

YOU are the squad sending the detailed map information back for your clearing and recovery teams.

I like the shroud and the exploration aspect, although I could live with sight distances being a little longer.

I also think it would be nice if it was optional so people who want to play without it could do.

This has been covered in a few of the other threads on the same subject though.

[Max_Caine]

I cannot recall any military mission taking place without the squads being briefed about the map details, during the 20th century(that includes WWI and WWII).

This is from the book "Band of Brothers", page 184, chapter titled "They Got Us Surrounded - The Poor Bastards"

On December 21 Lieutenant Peacock setn Sergeant Martin to the various foxholes of 1st platoon. At each one holding a sergeant or a corporal, Martin announced, "I want all N.C.O.s back at the platoon CP - now".

The men gathered. Lieutenant Peacock, the platoon leader, as tense as ever, stopped the grumbling: "At ease. Battalion wants a platoon to go on a combat patrol, and we have been elected to be that platoon." He paused. No one spoke. Peacock went on. "We know the Krauts are in the woods in from of our MLR, but we don't know how many, or where their MLR or OPs are located. It's our job to acquire that information and capture some prisoners, if possible."

Questions came in a torrent. "What's the plan of attack?" Sergeant Christenson, leader of 1st squad wanted to know.

"How will the squads be positioned?" asked Seargeant Muck of the mortar squad

"What happens when we loose contact in those woods?" wondered 2nd squad leader Sergeant Randleman

Peacock did not have any ready answers. "You'll know more of what you're going to do when we reach those woods" was all he could think to say. Son of a bitch, Christenson thought to himself. This is going to be another SNAFU operation, with not enough information to fill a peapod.

There's one.

[ThunderGr]

...

There's one.

The map details are known in this example. The positions of the enemy are not. This example just verifies what I was talking about.

[Max_Caine]

"In the woods" is as vague a set of "map details" as it gets. There is nothing else know other than "in the woods". And, hang on a second. There's exactly zero briefing about the "map details" in that description.

EDIT: Hang on a second 2. "In the woods" describes a map location. It does not give any details about that location.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Max_Caine

[ThunderGr]

"In the woods" is as vague a set of "map details" as it gets. There is nothing else know other than "in the woods". And, hang on a second. There's exactly zero briefing about the "map details" in that description.

EDIT: Hang on a second 2. "In the woods" describes a map location. It does not give any details about that location.

It is known that the woods is the perfect LOS prevention area. You cannot know what is in the woods. However, you know there are the woods and everything around them. Not what is in them. I would be all for this kind of realism in the game but I understand it would be very difficult to provide accurate and realistic woods maps. However, if a UFO had crashed in a woods area, it would be visible from miles away and very easy to spot its position in the woods. Don't you agree?

As a last notice, woods are the most difficult areas to keep track off with maps or surveillance. Even modern satellite systems have to resort to infrared in order to determine what is in the woods with some accuracy.

[GizmoGomez]

We already have map locations; the terrain type is given before the mission starts.

And also, I know it's been a page or so, but someone said something about the aliens not mucking about with light scouts and simply sending their whole fleet at once? That's because their ships cannot operate in our atmosphere, and have to be refitted before sending them down. Obviously the smaller ships take less time to refit.

[RawCode]

do you know why there is no stealth tank IRL?

tank power plant (engine) release hurge amount of heat, heated air fly forward and provide visible to bare aye vortex, this effect can be seen ever on civilian cars.

With any type of infrared sensor detection extremely simple ever at night.

Crash landed UFO shoud be hot, it's detection with 70th tech not issue.

Other hot objects can be present at area, like UFO parts blown by interceptors, fire from missed missiles, game can mark such locations without revealing entire map, this will not remove surprise effect, but in some cases will make everything much faster.

Of lore matter, nearly everything can be explain logically and fit existing lore, but still, option to have all ground maps revealed from start will improve game greatly, ever if this will be limited to normal or easy difficulty.

As for allien ships, there is completely no reason to send small ships first, wait to refit everything and then attack with everything.

Only way to explain why alliens not attacking with full power - they dont plan to eliminate earth.

[Name]

But ufos do not crash in the woods cuz we do not have a map full of trees yet

EDIT: RawCode it would improve the game for some people. Lazy people who dont like exploration and the fun experiences you get when you surround the wrong place looking for a ufo.

Edited June 29, 2013 by Name

[ThunderGr]

We already have map locations; the terrain type is given before the mission starts.

I thought the main issue in this discussion is about having knowledge of the location of the UFO. This is what I am arguing in favor of making sense to know it. In addition, all non-forest areas should be unshrouded.

As I have explained, I do not think it is really an issue. I like both approaches, I just think it would be both more realistic and equally gameplay enjoyable if you could start by knowing the details of the terrain that made sense and the location of the UFO.

And also, I know it's been a page or so, but someone said something about the aliens not mucking about with light scouts and simply sending their whole fleet at once? That's because their ships cannot operate in our atmosphere, and have to be refitted before sending them down. Obviously the smaller ships take less time to refit.

Well, in this case the Alien command is incompetent. There is no way you travel this distance to invade a planet without having an invasion plan. Disrupting communications, eliminating defense systems, space bombardments and having tactical air combat ships prepared are essential. Besides, the type of the UFO crafts(the way they operate) does not require aerodynamic designs. They use electromagnetic propulsion systems which work everywhere, no matter what density is the atmosphere. You cannot travel through space and not have the engineering knowledge and technology to have prepared a fleet of ships that can operate within the atmosphere of your target planet. While we give them so much credit for their technology and combat abilities, we accept them being tactically and strategically incompetent.

[GizmoGomez]

As for allien ships, there is completely no reason to send small ships first, wait to refit everything and then attack with everything.

Only way to explain why alliens not attacking with full power - they dont plan to eliminate earth.

I'm just saying what the official story explanation is. You can like it or dislike it, up to you.

[Name]

Suspension of disbelief. Lets all just explain this in our own heads and leave every one else alone. Maybe we can start a poll so that developers know "Its not just that one fool on the forums that want me to write another bazillion lines of code."

[Wintermist]

Lazy people who dont like exploration and the fun experiences you get when you surround the wrong place looking for a ufo.

Who are you calling lazy? Mind how you discuss things. I like exploration as much as the next guy, but I am also into realism. But calling me lazy, where do you get that from?

[Name]

You do not want to go into realism here. It quickly becomes a circular debate. Yes I am bad person because I called person who does not want to look for ufo lazy. Sorry to offend but I really ment to offend. I ges this forum can be to serious for me

In other news I think its safe to say this conversation has reached the end.

[Wintermist]

You do not want to go into realism here. It quickly becomes a circular debate. Yes I am bad person because I called person who does not want to look for ufo lazy. Sorry to offend but I really ment to offend. I ges this forum can be to serious for me

In other news I think its safe to say this conversation has reached the end.

There are many reasons why a discovered map is useful. You don't continuously keep running into what turned out to be a map border. You don't waste turns just to wait for those guys to catch up that happened to "explore" in the wrong direction. Why would I want to look for the UFO when it's the aliens I should be searching for? Clearly, coming in from the air, I'd have a pretty freaking solid idea where it crash landed, even the pilots could tell us "guys, it's over there". What I don't have a solid idea about is where the aliens scurried off to, and where they might lay in ambush for me.

Yeah, call me lazy for not wanting to run around in a black map even in broad daylight. That only speaks for your own definition of being lazy.

[Name]

Yup my definition of lazy is not wanting to do every bit of work in an xcom eske game sorry to disappoint. I really dont see how anyone runs into the map border.....

How many guys would that be that explored in the wrong direction. 2 4 any more than that and I feel you made a mistake.... I dont see aliens scurrying off. Wher on earth would they go to defend that is not better than inside their ship? Even some of hte maps with more cover out side of the ship is enough for 1 maybe 2 sebilians.

[wcanyon]

I made a poll.

http://www.goldhawkinteractive.com/forums/showthread.php/6127-poll-should-UFO-position-be-known-when-the-dropship-lands

I voted for "Yes, but only general location". I think that's fairly realistic and serves gameplay. The troops would know what direction the UFO is in but wouldn't know much about the lay of the land around.

[Wintermist]

I am not going to repeat my points because I don't discuss that way, but I will respond to why they wouldn't hide in their shot down UFO, and that is because that would be the place the enemy would come to look.

[ThunderGr]

There is the "hover cursor trick" in order to avoid sending your main force onto borders of the map. Just in case someone hadn't figured it out, yet. Some people may say it is a sort of exploit but I really think we should know where the borders of the map are. I had the same opinion for the original games as well.