Viability of CAS?

[Riddler]

Howdy. I've chosen to come out my self-imposed lurker status to throw out an idea I've had ever since ye olde X-Com.

What might that be, you ask? Close Air Support! I'd always liked the idea of having such a feature available, especially since it will give a tertiary use for hangars alongside another style of play.

Now, the very first issue to tackle would be What types of aircraft would support?

There's a bit of variety in how that could be handled. Personally, I believe that helicopters or other rotary-winged vehicles (up to and including hover platforms at a later date) would be better than jets. The reason for this is two-fold: helicopters, although still fuel intensive, are not so expensive as jets to fly. This would be simulated by lower maintenance costs. Secondly, a helicopter would be able to perform several fly-overs at different angles, whereas a jet might be traveling altogether too fast to do anything more meaningful than dropping one piece of ordinance.

So, assuming that helicopters would be chosen as the source of CAS, the next and most important question would be how would it work?

I'm going to be honest and admit that, yes, it could be either a waste of money or an overpowered mess if it isn't implemented right. It can't simply be something that, by paying another $30,000 dollars, you get access to missions where half the aliens are bleeding out on the ground before you even land.

But, with that said, it can't be so weak as to be useless or a waste of money. Perhaps it could be balanced out by a potential destruction of the UFO, negatives to Mission Performance due to blowing a bunch of holes in a civilian area, and so on.

I'd be hesitant to make it a "call-in" ability, since that'd be taking a step towards making it an over-powered sniper rifle, so one would assume the effects would take place before landing. Perhaps a 10% chance that each alien would take a direct hit by either a handful of MG rounds, a rocket, or whatever else you'd have equipped on the helicopter. There'd be a chance for houses, barns, and the ufo itself being either damaged or on fire. Smoke, blast areas reminiscent of rocket and MG fire.. Basically atmospheric effects to show that, yes, a helicopter really was strafing the area before you arrived.

With all that said, I can understand if others either wouldn't want to see this feature in or would have it an entirely different way. I'm almost retiscent myself, having come to love Xenonauts as-is, but I'd thought I would put this out here all the same. You never know if someone's been thinking the same thing!

[Jorboc]

Interesting thought. It kind of reminds me of the a-10 strike from good old C&C... which reminds me of their other superweapon: The orbital Ion Cannon. Wouldn't mind having a few of those babies floating around...

[thothkins]

For balance though, the aliens would just counter with their drones and not forgetting their ability to more readily call on the other 2999 UFOS they have sitting up there in orbit. It's not much fun seeing half your squad taken out from the clouds.

[lightgemini]

Aliens calling CAS from orbit too, wich needs to be countered by deploying your own fighters to keep air superiority, wich brings us to another completely new layer of battlefield air support maybe called "skyscape" wich is a full new mechanic/minigame that is 99% will not happen.

If xenonauts was a 3d game you could make some "Supreme commander" kind of mechanic and have it all at the same time, with multiple chinooks deploying xenonaut squads with an easy and intuitive selection and orders UI that lets you simulate an assault of a company level (100 men) on a tiny town surrounded by farms that is occupied by 60 Sebilians that came from a nearby crashed destroyer while a wing of 12 scimitars try to keep at bay a wing of 19 fighters that are trying to open a corridor for a group of 6 bombers that want to tactical nuke your landing área, all together blazing and shooting in an epic battle with a detachment of local forces providing covering fire with 6 pattons and a barrage of artillery that provides the final touch in form of cool Fireworks for what is already the most beautiful Xcom remake you will ever see in your life. Cool?

[thothkins]

sorry lightgemini, I didn't see the link to your mod there?

So yeah, such things detract form what is supposed to be the focus of this game, squad based tactical combat on the Battlescape without support weapons/aircraft.

[lightgemini]

Apart of joking a bit, to be serious, the CAS system on "combat misión shock forcé" comes to mind. It is easy and realistic were you have a simple menu to call diferent types of CAS and the requested support , if available , comes several turns after the call. It is based on having total air superiority so something more should be added for Xenonauts, like a direct calculation of deployed friendly fighters in the área (in geospace) vs the amount of alien support plus a random factor wich gives a final percentage of chances that called CAS will actually make it or will have to abort. To avoid adding extra headaches no loss of planes for any side would apply.

Then adding the actual CAS attack would be as simple as creating explosions / impacts on designated área (with random deviation) at begin or end of turn. If the targets moved in all the turns it took the CAS to arrive then badluck try again later. That would autobalance things pretty much while keeping it realistic and not a "You die" button.

[Jorboc]

good god. Now I'm just thinking of a Xenonauts conversion mod for an RTS.... It could happen?

Hell, I've wanted an XCOM one for almost 20 years now.

[Gauddlike]

You could simulate something if you had access to the roll the game makes for enemies injured/killed in the crash.

Your close air support could be attached to your dropship in a squadron and if it is present then the roll gets a bonus so more enemies are potentially injured or dead when you land.

That would depend on the roll being made when you arrive rather than when the craft is shot down though.

Unless you could force the game to make another roll when the dropship turns up.

Not currently possible of course, just sounded like a way of doing it with minimal coding.

[StellarRat]

Um...you do realize that the above mentioned thunderbolts of doom can miss their targets by a substantial amount. On the cramped Xenonaut maps I'd be VERY hesitant to call in any type of indirect attack, specially an airstrike. Remember, 1970's are WAY different than how things are now. Laser guided bombs were RARE back then and the GPS stuff didn't even exist. I still remember my compass and map course because that's how you figured out where you were in the before times.

That being said, I have no desire for anything like that. Airstrikes from Xenonaut fighters could be possible, but probably only cannon runs again with the inherent chance of killing a bunch of your own guys and a lot of civilians. On the Xenonaut map scale you simply wouldn't see it used. Back in those days danger close was 300m+ for bombs. That's 200 tiles in our game OR basically almost TWO ENTIRE maps away. Even guns need about 40 tiles for safety.

50mm mortars would be possible too, but hardly worth the trouble since it takes a two man crew and several minutes to set up while you already have rocket launchers ready to go.

Edited June 15, 2013 by StellarRat

[Sathra]

good god. Now I'm just thinking of a Xenonauts conversion mod for an RTS.... It could happen?

Hell, I've wanted an XCOM one for almost 20 years now.

Funnily enough, the Firaxis XCOM gets some units in the new Civ5 expansion.

[Gauddlike]

Um...you do realize that the above mentioned thunderbolts of doom can miss their targets by a substantial amount. On the cramped Xenonaut maps I'd be VERY hesitant to call in any type of indirect attack, specially an airstrike. Remember, 1970's are WAY different than how things are now. Laser guided bombs were RARE back then and the GPS stuff didn't even exist. I still remember my compass and map course because that's how you figured out where you were in the before times.

I was working on the assumption that something a little lower tech would be used.

And that it would be in mod territory rather than vanilla.

For example a couple of flybys from a small fast helicopter sporting a machine gun just strafing anyone left in the open.

Possibly accompanied by Wagner.

All off screen as it would just be a modifier to the roll for surviving the crash.

You would need a chance to lose the support craft and the issue of visible areas on the map would get raised yet again.

Plus a chance for local forces and civilians to get hurt.

I agree if isn't of much interest to me though, I would rather be using my squad to take out enemies.

[JamesRoshal]

Helo's would be the best choice for CAS, as they are nimble enough to drop down to strife an area, as well as ability to 'duck' and hide.

I love the idea of CAS, and indirect fire support, It would give a smaller squad a bigger combat present. great for attacking open ground, sucks for CQB

[Jorboc]

Hell, just make it a random weather event. Maybe alien tech is a really good lightning conductor. That would be just too perfect.

[EchoFourDelta]

Eh, the B-300 was merely in development during the time the game takes place and the Xenonauts have that; development on Hellfire missiles started in the early 70s; no reason you couldn't see gunships slinging laser-guided Hellfires. Considering the rest of the stuff we see them developing... There's not really much of a reason they *wouldn't* be using CAS other than it wouldn't be fair to the aliens.

Edited August 4, 2013 by EchoFourDelta

[Ishantil]

An AC-130 Sprectre gusnhip would be perfect for CAS. And the A-10 Thunderbolt II Was ready by 1979.

However, Close Air Support is probably beyond the scope of the game, which focuses on team versus team infantry combat.

[xakthos]

An AC-130 Sprectre gusnhip would be perfect for CAS. And the A-10 Thunderbolt II Was ready by 1979.

However, Close Air Support is probably beyond the scope of the game, which focuses on team versus team infantry combat.

Good lord a AC-130 would be overkill. By 1972 they had the 105mm package available. Talk about overkill; there'd be nothing to salvage of the entire UFO much less the aliens after calling in a sanitation mission on their position. Even the 40mm Bofors from out of effective grounded alien counter attack would mean just sending in a team of one to pick up pieces and act as a spotter.

[Ishantil]

Having an AC-130 on patrol is prefect for if your mission goes Tango Uniform. The 40mm would be perfect for taking out alien infested buildings and whatnot, and the 20mm chain gun would be great for when you need something smaller dead.

Good times.

[StellarRat]

No matter how feasible CAS was it would totally unbalance the game. So, I'd be against for that reason alone. By the way, those of you that mentioned helicopter and 130's. I was thinking of fixed wing jets, but you are correct helicopters/130s would probably be a lot less likely to miss by large amounts.

[Ishantil]

The way I figure it, that's what they do if we don't go after the UFO, set up a air superiority patrol and call in an air strike. Either with an AC-130 or a full on bombing run.

An A-10 would turn a UFO into swiss cheese with the GAU-8 Avenger.

But I agree, CAS would be against the spirit of the game and be completely unbalancing.

[EchoFourDelta]

Still, you have to think. What's the conventional wisdom in-universe that leads the Xenonaut's commander to think, "Pfffffff SCREW a buncha 130s."

[Ishantil]

Indeed. "X leader, this is Home Base, we've got an AC-130 loitering over your position, callsign Thumper. They are standing by."

Still, the aliens would probably also have self destructing UFOs.

[StellarRat]

You guys are forgetting possibly that the alien ship may still be able to fire it's air to air weapon while on the ground. That would make flying over one nearly suicidal for a low, slow AC. Even a Lt. Scout would deadly against those type of AC. Granted the UFO is shot down, but we don't know if it's completely helpless. Certainly the ones that are landed on a ground mission aren't (the green triangles).

[EchoFourDelta]

Well... they kinda only lock and fire directly to the front. That's what calling out that approach and exit vector's for.

[StellarRat]

Well... they kinda only lock and fire directly to the front. That's what calling out that approach and exit vector's for.

Yes, within an arc. It's interesting that their shots can track a target somewhat. Wonder if alien handheld weapons have any AA capability. You'd think they would being an advanced civ and all.

[EchoFourDelta]

Even if they're capable of it, they're obviously enough of a non-factor that the lumbering-ass assault helo can drop you off a couple hundred yards away in dead sight of the UFO and all the little occupants without a problem.

Maybe they're not used to fighting aircraft in an atmospheric setting?