Gorlom Posted December 31, 2012 Share Posted December 31, 2012 (edited) I use "realism" as a general term encompassing its various facets in various degrees. "Mimics real life down to the last detail" is, by far, not the definition of "realistic". If you used this definition, then there would be no realistic games ever - even SAMsim (exactly what the name implies, down to pressing specific buttons) has a few inaccuracies and simplifications. Nor any realistic movies, except for CCTV footage. Nor any realistic books, ever; even engineering reference manuals would have to be deemed unrealistic. So for example any (reasonable) variation to size of the mag is realistic, even if it is not true to real life versions? Glad we settled that. Edited December 31, 2012 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWP Posted January 1, 2013 Share Posted January 1, 2013 It's less realistic than exact adherence, more realistic than unreasonable size. But I'd still like the MG's belt size increased - to balance it out. A long belt would be a drawback, not an advantage: you won't use up your ammo anyway, but a longer belt will add to the weight penalty. That is balance it out after it's powered up, of course. Gimme gimme "kneeling time depending on weapon carried" mechanic (and kneeling required - or at least impacting accuracy in major way). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Pancakes Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I kinda love how all of this spawned from a simple wish for a larger LMG ammo belt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I kinda love how all of this spawned from a simple wish for a larger LMG ammo belt... started with a wish for larger pistol mag really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 5, 2013 Share Posted January 5, 2013 I kinda love how all of this spawned from a simple wish for a larger LMG ammo belt... started with a wish for larger pistol mag really. and sniper and MG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacobandit Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Why not set this as a sub-option? When starting a game, have a tab that says "realism?" to enable the guns to have their realistic ammo capacities, and have the other weapon physical stats to balance it. The regular game will enable the default values as currently added. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 Why not set this as a sub-option? When starting a game, have a tab that says "realism?" When you press the realism option, you get the message: "There are no such things as aliens. Don't be silly." Then a "Game over" screen. Chris, I get a cut for saving you development costs, right? Chris? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commissar Pancakes Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 started with a wish for larger pistol mag really. Certainly! For all those civilians who aren't Buddhists! Plus, I'd be remiss if I didn't carry out my job. When you press the realism option, you get the message: "There are no such things as aliens. Don't be silly." Then a "Game over" screen.Chris, I get a cut for saving you development costs, right? Chris? I think the contract stated that you'd get 50% of all revenue generated from that particular portion of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thothkins Posted January 6, 2013 Share Posted January 6, 2013 "I think the contract stated that you'd get 50% of all revenue generated from that particular portion of the game. " Is that 50% of the revenue that would have been generated from the game, 5 or maybe better even 4 Kopins. Or 50% of it after I cut it, which would be 0 Kopins ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 (edited) this may be stupid to say...but...wouldn't working off of proven real world values make for an immediately balanced game? from that base mechanic things could be enhanced for teir 2,3 and 4 Edited January 8, 2013 by Chollirem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 this may be stupid to say...but...wouldn't working off of proven real world values make for an immediately balanced game? from that base mechanic things could be enhanced for teir 2,3 and 4 How so? I don't understand this line of reasoning since not everything translates from real life to the game. Lots of things aren't included because they simply aren't within the scope of the game. Not everything has real world values. And some values would just be wrong for the game. For example how long does it take to aim a shotgun or an assault rifle and pull the trigger? Compared to running say 10-20 meters in full gear (with the weapon ready in a firing position should you find an alien out in the open). Which one should theoretically cost the most AP? Even if I'm wrong and the one that should cost the most does cost the most, is the conversion accurate or is it a simple fluke? Would an accurate correlation in AP versus the time it takes to perform be fun or frustrating? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacobandit Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 How so? I don't understand this line of reasoning since not everything translates from real life to the game. Lots of things aren't included because they simply aren't within the scope of the game. Not everything has real world values. And some values would just be wrong for the game. For example how long does it take to aim a shotgun or an assault rifle and pull the trigger? Compared to running say 10-20 meters in full gear (with the weapon ready in a firing position should you find an alien out in the open). Which one should theoretically cost the most AP? Even if I'm wrong and the one that should cost the most does cost the most, is the conversion accurate or is it a simple fluke? Would an accurate correlation in AP versus the time it takes to perform be fun or frustrating? And that's why you can't have a realistic turn based game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrashMan Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 When you press the realism option, you get the message: "There are no such things as aliens. Don't be silly." Then a "Game over" screen.Chris, I get a cut for saving you development costs, right? Chris? Proof please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Proof please. I'm so tempted to turn this into a circle argument by providing "God made us in his image" as "proof" Just for the fun of it Can you provide proof that there is no God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWP Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 For example how long does it take to aim a shotgun or an assault rifle and pull the trigger? Compared to running say 10-20 meters in full gear (with the weapon ready in a firing position should you find an alien out in the open). Based on tile=1m and 2.5m/s (that's 9 kph) mobility speed in gear, 1TU~=0.1 seconds for an average (60TU) low level soldier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Based on tile=1m and 2.5m/s (that's 9 kph) mobility speed in gear, 1TU~=0.1 seconds for an average (60TU) low level soldier.Is that an HWP calculation or something that Chris posted? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWP Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 It's an estimate. If you need it more precise, you could ask a dev directly on how wide exactly the tile is. Or maybe it's been posted, I recall the height is 2.1m (or was it 2.2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 Based on tile=1m and 2.5m/s (that's 9 kph) mobility speed in gear, 1TU~=0.1 seconds for an average (60TU) low level soldier. Ok? and what conclusions do you draw by that? And how many seconds does it take you to reload a MG? or even an AR? Is the AP cost for that reasonable compared to how much AP is needed to fire 2 bullets right after each other at the same target? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 (edited) It's an estimate. If you need it more precise, you could ask a dev directly on how wide exactly the tile is. Or maybe it's been posted, I recall the height is 2.1m (or was it 2.2).I would, but I'm pretty sure they've intentionally not given us any distance or time scale because they want to be able to fudge any numbers for playability and balance. If that were not true our Xenonauts could see and shoot a lot further, etc... I think trying to derive what should happen based on any real world physical measurements it pretty much a waste of time in Xenonauts. As far as I tell the terrain is just there to look pretty and provide the basis for some realistic tactics not as a solid simulation of modern combat. Edited January 8, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chollirem Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 welll I can reload a weapon of the m16 type in 2ish seconds if I drop the spent mag, 5 if i stow the mag the saw takes about 10 seconds to reload shot gun takes a about 1 second per round you load Pric rifle like the m16 about 2 -5 seconds on if I drop or keep the spent mag rockets like RPGs take...8 seconds give or take a lil these guys can always ask army guys to do this stuff in exchange for like...putting the helping soldiers names and faces in game "hint hint" and they can get guys in full kit to run and time distances so its all accurate based on what army folk of the infantry variant can do. how long does it take 10 joes to aim and hit a target, snap shot, etc gimi an average, ok we have a base line... the resources are out there to be used...if people will use them : ) and then all the work is done for you, you just stick in numbers into the system and make it better at higher tier teck and vwala, balanced game, no need to balance and tweak and test and go OMFG that pistol shoots sharks...with friken laser beams attached to their heads....WTF give me a question and Ill give you a time hack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorlom Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 (edited) welll I can reload a weapon of the m16 type in 2ish seconds if I drop the spent mag, 5 if i stow the magthe saw takes about 10 seconds to reload shot gun takes a about 1 second per round you load Pric rifle like the m16 about 2 -5 seconds on if I drop or keep the spent mag rockets like RPGs take...8 seconds give or take a lil these guys can always ask army guys to do this stuff in exchange for like...putting the helping soldiers names and faces in game "hint hint" and they can get guys in full kit to run and time distances so its all accurate based on what army folk of the infantry variant can do. how long does it take 10 joes to aim and hit a target, snap shot, etc gimi an average, ok we have a base line... the resources are out there to be used...if people will use them : ) and then all the work is done for you, you just stick in numbers into the system and make it better at higher tier teck and vwala, balanced game, no need to balance and tweak and test and go OMFG that pistol shoots sharks...with friken laser beams attached to their heads....WTF give me a question and Ill give you a time hack assuming the 1 AP = 0.1 second converstion HWP gave us to be true: The 10 second (100AP) reload on the saw just made it impossible to reload unless you have maxed out the AP on that character. And it would take the entire turn. It would be more useful to bring another saw then an extra mag. Reloading rockets requires more AP than any of the first three ranks can have... You wouldn't be able to reload the rocket launcher until halfway through the game making it a pretty useless one shot weapon. Better to just bring a bandolier(sp?) of grenades. I don't think inserting realistic numbers is the way to go. Real life just isn't balanced with a turnbased game like Xenonauts in mind. Edited January 8, 2013 by Gorlom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 8, 2013 Share Posted January 8, 2013 (edited) assuming the 1 AP = 0.1 second converstion HWP gave us to be true: The 10 second (100AP) reload on the saw just made it impossible to reload unless you have maxed out the AP on that character. And it would take the entire turn. It would be more useful to bring another saw then an extra mag. Reloading rockets requires more AP than any of the first three ranks can have... You wouldn't be able to reload the rocket launcher until halfway through the game making it a pretty useless one shot weapon. Better to just bring a bandolier(sp?) of grenades. I don't think inserting realistic numbers is the way to go. Real life just isn't balanced with a turnbased game like Xenonauts in mind. I've played turn based games where some actions took multiple turns, but I don't think Xenonauts is capable of that. It just depends on the how the game was coded (whether or not it "remembers" how many TU's you put into something already from turn to turn.) That being said, I think Xenonauts is good enough to represent some basic tactics with mediocre realism. It's not really supposed to be a small unit simulator although with some tweaking it certainly has potential. I think it would be a lot less fun though. Edited January 9, 2013 by StellarRat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tacobandit Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I've played turn based games where some actions took multiple turns, but I don't think Xenonauts is capable of that. It just depends on the how the game was coded (whether or not it "remembers" how many TU's you put into something already from turn to turn.) That being said, I think Xenonauts is good enough to represent some basic tactics with mediocre realism. It's not really supposed to be a small unit simulator although with some tweaking it certainly has potential. I think it would be a lot less fun though. How about we throw out the realism and introduce some good ol game balance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 How about we throw out the realism and introduce some good ol game balance?Isn't that sort of what I said? Besides, it's pretty pointless to talk about balancing anything until we have a complete game and AI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HWP Posted January 9, 2013 Share Posted January 9, 2013 I would, but I'm pretty sure they've intentionally not given us any distance or time scale because they want to be able to fudge any numbers for playability and balance. You don't generally state tile height as "2.2m" - not "a couple meters" or "about 7 feet", but an exact number - unless you mean it to be specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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