Accurate representations of real world military equipment

[TrashMan]

Who said 1 AP has to be 0.1 seconds?

and who said you look at seconds duration insted of proportions/relations.

We have :

shotgun = 8 seconds (for 8 shells)

Assault rifle = 2 (5)seconds

machinegun = 10

so machingun = 5x assault rilfe

shotgun = 4x assault rifle

[Gorlom]

Who said 1 AP has to be 0.1 seconds?

I'm pretty sure I mentioned that it was HWP that came up with that... I think he based it on the speed with which a soldier in full gear could reasonably cover a set distance.

and who said you look at seconds duration insted of proportions/relations.

We have :

shotgun = 8 seconds (for 8 shells)

Assault rifle = 2 (5)seconds

machinegun = 10

so machingun = 5x assault rilfe

shotgun = 4x assault rifle

I don't understand how your suggestion changes anything.

[TrashMan]

Go reverse.

If the longest reloading weapon takes an entire turn, you go from there. If a machinegun takes 50Ap, then the rifle takes 10AP, and so on.

Realism and fun gameplay are not enemies and shouldn't be treated as such.

[Gorlom]

Go reverse.

If the longest reloading weapon takes an entire turn, you go from there. If a machinegun takes 50Ap, then the rifle takes 10AP, and so on.

Realism and fun gameplay are not enemies and shouldn't be treated as such.

No, but at the same time they aren't best pals either. 10 AP to reload the AR is probably too little making the action far too trivial.

and if you want to have realistic proportions/relations to other actions such as firing, throwing grenades and moving you are yet again going to encounter problems.

You can strive to have somewhat realistic values, but in my opinion you can't (as Chollirem said) take all the values directly from real life put them into the game and expect it to be balanced for optimal fun gameplay (unless you define how fun your gameplay is by how realistic it is. which Xenonauts obviously isn't doing since it is turnbased).

Edited January 9, 2013 by Gorlom

[HWP]

and if you want to have realistic proportions/relations to other actions such as firing, throwing grenades and moving you are yet again going to encounter problems.

Really you just need to balance reloading vs shooting. Should be ~similar for most weapons.

Also, for actions that take very long, perhaps a "full turn" mechanic can be used - that is, if a soldier's Current Max AP < Required AP, then Required AP = Current Max AP or possibly (CurrentMaxAP-n) where n=(4..8) to allow for insignificant activity like looking around (inc. accidental), kneeling, inventory access. The only question is which penalties should count for this value (e.g. penalties from weight count; do those from panic?)

A full turn can be considered more than just ~6 seconds, given that it includes sitting in cover, aliens firing at you, etc, and these aren't fully simultaneous, so it should suffice for any possible action. Not that there is a lot of actions that can't be done in 6 seconds anyway.

edit: Also, surprisingly, I do agree that the amount of time it takes for actions can't be directly translated to the time units of a turn-based game. It gives a good baseline, but should then be tweaked for playability.

Edited January 9, 2013 by HWP

[StellarRat]

You don't generally state tile height as "2.2m" - not "a couple meters" or "about 7 feet", but an exact number - unless you mean it to be specific.

Well if you read that somewhere great, but my point is still that the devs don't care much, if at all, about scale and time. Chris is much more focused on making a fun game with some tactical accuracy vs. a straight simulation. Just like the original XCom. I think if it comes down balance and fun vs. reality Chris is going to choose the former.

[Azazass]

If realism it's applied to the humans and their equipment, it should be applied to the aliens too... And if it's applied the game won't be very fun unless you enjoy watching your troops die by shots of hot plasma to their chest, or the large amount of battlefield amputations caused by the aliens to your soldiers with their weapons or your futile yet heroic attempts to shot down UFOs with your planes and their heat-seeking, radar-guided missiles or cannons which will be of limited use against an alien craft more advanced that any aircraft in the planet... And last but not least, aliens with psychic powers that incapacitate your troops by just looking at them.

[thothkins]

"or the large amount of battlefield amputations caused by the aliens to your soldiers with their weapons"

There's just not enough screaming, trauma or bowel evacuations of the dying in Xenonauts really is there?

[Tacobandit]

Wait, are the aliens just as retarded as they were in the OG?

[Gorlom]

Wait, are the aliens just as retarded as they were in the OG?

If you mean do they invade one UFO at a time? Almost. They do tend to send out a few UFOs in a wave but they don't bother to coordinate a massattack a la Independence day.

If you are talking about the individual units AI during Ground combat: probably not. Go read Gijis post about the AI he is developing for more accurate answers.

[Tacobandit]

If you mean do they invade one UFO at a time? Almost. They do tend to send out a few UFOs in a wave but they don't bother to coordinate a massattack a la Independence day.

If you are talking about the individual units AI during Ground combat: probably not. Go read Gijis post about the AI he is developing for more accurate answers.

What I meant was do the aliens land with more than one UFO, do they know how to go down stairs, and do they know how to throw grenades?

And another thing. Stun damage is going to be in this game I believe. If the aliens can wake up from stun damage, will they re-pick up their weapons?

[Chollirem]

Go reverse.

If the longest reloading weapon takes an entire turn, you go from there. If a machine gun takes 50Ap, then the rifle takes 10AP, and so on.

Realism and fun gameplay are not enemies and shouldn't be treated as such.

Actually its a Assault riffle, reload time IS fast, 10 AP to reload a rif and 50 for the saw, would work rather well. it fits with the in game AP and is balanced,

remember with a riffle i get the job of reloading done in 2 seconds if I just drop the spent mag. With practice 1 second would be easy (the sf and sas guys can reload in less then a sec with drop mag)

5 seconds to reload a saw...that can be done but you gotta be good

but in short trash mans idea would work, be balanced and mostly realistic

[Gorlom]

Actually its a Assault riffle, reload time IS fast, 10 AP to reload a rif and 50 for the saw, would work rather well. it fits with the in game AP and is balanced,

remember with a riffle i get the job of reloading done in 2 seconds if I just drop the spent mag. With practice 1 second would be easy (the sf and sas guys can reload in less then a sec with drop mag)

5 seconds to reload a saw...that can be done but you gotta be good

but in short trash mans idea would work, be balanced and mostly realistic

How is it balanced?

Do you mean that assuming realism it is balanced with the saw's reload time as counter point?

or

Do you mean that the action does not become trivial in the gameplay (when the reload costs less than firing a shot), and acomplishes what the developer wants it to do?

I am not saying it doesn't do the latter for some people, but it doesn't seem balanced in that regard to me.

I get the feeling we mean different things when we say "balanced". I would rather look at how the mechanics interact and how they feel when playing than if you can put a realistic relation between them.

[Tacobandit]

How is it balanced?

Do you mean that assuming realism it is balanced with the saw's reload time as counter point?

or

Do you mean that the action does not become trivial in the gameplay (when the reload costs less than firing a shot), and acomplishes what the developer wants it to do?

I am not saying it doesn't do the latter for some people, but it doesn't seem balanced in that regard to me.

I get the feeling we mean different things when we say "balanced". I would rather look at how the mechanics interact and how they feel when playing than if you can put a realistic relation between them.

Reload should be a set amount of TU for all guns.

[Gorlom]

Reload should be a set amount of TU for all guns.

do you mean equal across all the guns? I dunno about that. Assuming that Damage per AP spent firing is equal to all guns )I know it's not, bit for the sake of this discussion) having a set AP cost for reloading (regardless of gun) would be benefitial to the guns with the bigger mags. It's a balance you will have to tweak as you try it out but logically it would be easier amd better for the balance if the bigger mags cost more AP to change.

You just have to try not to get the cost of reloading one weapon to be trivial and one weapon to be nearly impossible unless you beefed up your soldiers stats first.

[StellarRat]

Reload should be a set amount of TU for all guns.

Not true and not accurate. A shotgun from that time period would take WAY longer to reload as they didn't have removeable magazines. It really depends on the type of weapon, size of magazine, etc...

[Gauddlike]

That may not be true past the ballistic weapons though.

If all the laser weapons are designed in the same way to use the same battery configuration, for example, then reloading them all would be fairly standard, time wise.

[Tacobandit]

Not true and not accurate. A shotgun from that time period would take WAY longer to reload as they didn't have removeable magazines. It really depends on the type of weapon, size of magazine, etc...

Yes, but that is balanced by the high TU cost to fire those weapons. And it would clear up this issue + it's what the OG did.

[StellarRat]

Yes, but that is balanced by the high TU cost to fire those weapons. And it would clear up this issue + it's what the OG did.

Well, that may be, but we can do better by simply making the reloading take longer. I don't quite understand why they would have done that in the OC, actually. If you don't think a ballistic weapon is balanced it seems to me the best way to fix it is to change it's damage or accuracy. Monkeying around with TUs and reload times seems like the most obtuse way to deal with balance.

[Gorlom]

That may not be true past the ballistic weapons though.

If all the laser weapons are designed in the same way to use the same battery configuration, for example, then reloading them all would be fairly standard, time wise.

Ssssh Guaddlike! Don't give them any funny ideas!

[StellarRat]

That may not be true past the ballistic weapons though.

If all the laser weapons are designed in the same way to use the same battery configuration, for example, then reloading them all would be fairly standard, time wise.

Yeah, that's true. I imagine the only major difference might be that the more powerful weapons would have larger battery packs, so they might take slightly longer to reload.

[Gorlom]

Yeah, that's true. I imagine the only major difference might be that the more powerful weapons would have larger battery packs, so they might take slightly longer to reload.

or require more than one standard sized battery?

[StellarRat]

or require more than one standard sized battery?

Yes, or maybe just use the same battery but fires less shots before it runs out (my preferrence.)

[Gorlom]

Yes, or maybe just use the same battery but fires less shots before it runs out (my preferrence.)

wouldn't that technically be the same as balancing by changing the AP cost for reloads?

[StellarRat]

wouldn't that technically be the same as balancing by changing the AP cost for reloads?

I was thinking of a standardized battery. If you only have one size then the only thing that can change is how many shots you get out of it which would depend on the weapon not the battery.