Just played kickstarter demo , some impressions/suggestions

[dark_madmax]

First I played TFTD as my first tactical squad game and played basically every major title (and not so major too) -JA, JA2, UFO:Aftermath, Brigade E5 ,Silent Storm and so on. XCOM EU is great game but it does have it shortcoming which prompted me to check out this project

What I liked :

- Art style and most of the splash screens.

- strategic layer is close to original and thats better than xcom-eu

- air combat has potential to be more interesting with close range/logn range and multifghter squad

Needs work:

- soldiers portraits are goofy

- tactical ui need some work. Particularly hit % hints for all enemies on screen, better reservation for TU(so u dont have to cancel it when u actually shoot) ,auto end turns in crouch, squad numbers and HP/TU bar on top of units and so on

- more animation(particularly idle animation and stuff like birds ,rain ,snow etc) and tile variety would surely help in improving overal feel of tactical section

Disliked and main reasons I wouldnt be buying game in its present incarnation:

- Hidden movement screen and general pace :

The game pace is just like original xcom. Its glacially slow and unnecessarily sluggish with the bulk of the time spent passively watching civilians and aliens move , 1 by 1 , without any speed up, interrupted by pointless annoying "hidden movement" screen. There is no reason it shouldn't calculate all the moves in the background and display final result without artificially slowing the game

Its 2012 and what was okish in original xcom is just not good today. Tactical part feels awfully inadequate today and is a drag to play. Being the core element of the game it makes or breaks the game

I like real-time pause approach (as it is more organic and realistic, brigade -e5 combat is probably best implementation to date) , but even among turn based solution anything is better than what xenonauts has to offer. JA2/Silent storm combat for example are the minimum acceptable standard a new game should strive to achieve. - Those are cover/stealth and vision system, better overwatch/interrupt mechanic, faster turns by AI which do not slow the pace to a crawl.

Xcom-EU combat is streamlined and simplified and so it lacks many options but even this is much better than xenonauts (and xcom eu has superior graphics and animation which compensate and mask the relative shallowness)

Edited October 29, 2012 by dark_madmax

[Buzzles]

Well, apart from the Hidden Movement speed being quite a bit faster in the current builds compared to the KS Build thanks to much improved Civilian and AI turn speed, I have to say, I don't think Xenonauts is going to be the game for you as you want a game with JA2 mechanics.

I'm curious that you've praised the general art style but knocked the portraits. What's wrong with them specifically?

[dark_madmax]

Well, apart from the Hidden Movement speed being quite a bit faster in the current builds compared to the KS Build thanks to much improved Civilian and AI turn speed, I have to say, I don't think Xenonauts is going to be the game for you as you want a game with JA2 mechanics.

Yeah that part kinda saddens me as I do long for xcom like game with good tactical sections . I feel it was a great strength of original back in the day when it was first and only option , but it was surpassed by subsequent games (JA2 in pure mechanics and Silent Storm in terms of destructible environments)

I'm curious that you've praised the general art style but knocked the portraits. What's wrong with them specifically?

Now that I think about it :

- there is general goofiness in some faces ,but actual mini portraits are ok for most part. Though they look like every day civilians, bank clerks and such. I would expect more ruggedness from veteran elite soldiers

- the uniform and helmets is what overall makes a bad impression. It kinda looks bad overall. Uniform looks way too much like pajamas than military special squad garb. Its light blue and sterile, particularly the basic armor look with its horrid helmets. Jackal looks better but still not great.

- some faces are goofy on its own and look odd. Even the main title screen the general in the middle is plain odd ,while general on right has odd expression not fitting the situation .

And in general everything which is non living looks good - planes , vehicles , weapons , facilities, when it comes to faces and humans its weak point

Edited October 29, 2012 by dark_madmax

[Andeerz]

Personally, I feel the art direction is excellent. The look of the soldiers' equipment is quite appropriate for the time period. I also like that there is none of this ridiculous, grossly disproportional Gears-of-war-esque aesthetic that so many games use nowadays (I'm especially pleased that the women don't have stupid boob-plate armour and the like and that people ACTUALLY HAVE HELMETS). The faces look great; maybe a little flat in terms of shading, but really, I think it's a charming art style. I mean, seriously, look at real-life soldiers you know; they look like everyone else minus perhaps regulation haircuts. Actually, the haircuts are the only things that I think are weird. The intro screen is phenomenal; I don't know why anyone thinks the expressions look weird. The technical skill of the artist is superb, and the piece itself sets a pretty darned appropriate mood for the game.

I'm not accusing anyone of thinking this, but I wonder if people are put off by the fact that the art in the game doesn't follow cliché near-future sci-fi and fantasy tropes people have come to expect. This is among the major things I love about the art direction of the game.

Game mechanics wise, I see myself agreeing quite a bit with the OP. I see this game as trying too hard to be the original UFO in terms of game-mechanics, but really I think the tactical aspects of the game would be stellar with some changes to visibility and how enemies are sighted, as well as a lot of the streamlining that will undoubtedly happen as the game is developed further. The mechanisms necessary for terrain destruction and everything else other games like JA2 and Silent Storm have are there or could potentially be there (keep in mind this game is nowhere near feature complete). This game has tremendous potential, and the kickstarter demo is much different from the alpha versions currently available.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Andeerz

[Belmakor]

Unfortunately apart from the UI change which is already being worked on some of your suggestions are not great.

[TrashMan]

Now that I think about it :

- there is general goofiness in some faces ,but actual mini portraits are ok for most part. Though they look like every day civilians, bank clerks and such. I would expect more ruggedness from veteran elite soldiers

- the uniform and helmets is what overall makes a bad impression. It kinda looks bad overall. Uniform looks way too much like pajamas than military special squad garb. Its light blue and sterile, particularly the basic armor look with its horrid helmets. Jackal looks better but still not great.

1) Do you really think veteran soldiers all look like Rambo or Ahrnold?

I met some Spec Ops soldiers in real life and they have normal faces.

2) It's 1970 and it's a mish-mash unit created ad-hoc from all over the world.

Of course the basic uniform looks crappy. IHMO, it fits.

[Betuor]

Of course the basic uniform looks crappy. IHMO, it fits.

Have you ever seen the starting uniforms in the first game?

[HWP]

They were cool enough that I once flew to Cydonia wearing mostly those.

[thothkins]

I thought that the Hidden Movement screen and the purely turn based combat were design decisions in order to replicate the feel of the original game. If the decision had gone the other way, there would have been a number of squeals that it just didn't feel like X-Com any more. Particularly the loss of turn based.

Waiting for all the NPCs is a bit of a pain I agree. I don;t think the tactics are quite going to reach the heights of a few other games, but then I'm not sure that was ever really the intent. "The game pace is just like original xcom," is probably a huge compliment.

The AI and UI are still being worked on, so we;ll see how it all turns out. Personally I liked the look of the old UI to the new one, art wise

[Sigi]

The game pace is just like original xcom. Its glacially slow and unnecessarily sluggish with the bulk of the time spent passively watching civilians and aliens move , 1 by 1 , without any speed up, interrupted by pointless annoying "hidden movement" screen. There is no reason it shouldn't calculate all the moves in the background and display final result without artificially slowing the game

I have to agree with that. Having played V17.1 for a short while, this is what annoyed me the most.

The hidden movement screen should either go away, or be displayed during the entire enemy turn. Having it appear and disappear several times during the enemy turn is severely irritating.

The enemy turn also needs to be much quicker. Some waiting time is OK, like with the new "XCOM", but not much more.

There are other issues with the game, such as fonts being way too small in many areas, and needlessly so (there is more than enough real estate on modern screens; use it). Also, I really do not like the idea of having 95% of on-screen text in ALL CAPS. That's just horrible. I'll make a separate posting about that after I have linked my forum account ;-).

[Andeerz]

I hope the time between turns speeds up more, but I was pleasantly surprised with 17.1 as things seemed to happen A LOT faster during the hidden movement screen. I also really like that sometimes shots seem to happen in close succession during this time, making things actually sound a little like a fire fight!

[Sapare]

I have to agree that currently the enemy/civilian turn is way to slugish and slow. Now don't come at me with a pitchfork guys; I enjoy xcom, or at least really enjoyed Apocalypse(turn based and RT) and this game just doesn't have the "not my turn" thing down well enough.

I read a lot about the AI guy and I got grea faith in the fact that part of this problem is the current AI and that it will be fixed before this is over.(Example are the civilians. The current problems is that they INSIST on doing things even if they already found a good place to hide. Sometimes just ducking down and standing back up 5 times in a row, which takes about 10 to 15 seconds. I could argue the civilan moves could be done compleetly offscreen(always, even if you can see it), sped up, or somewhere inbetween(or option for all)

Alien moves which are outside of field of view could also be handled quicker, I don't have to hear how some random alien(or solider) on the other side of the map fires his gun 5 times and hits a wall 5 times.(again, once AI is more deadly this might speed up more, but why is it so slow atm anyway? It isnt realism to hear stuff I shouldnt hear)

Now, I know not every oldschool excom fan liked Apo, but I don't feel it was anywhere as slow in Apocalypse, so maybe look at that to see how they handled movements.(as everyone did get moves(civilians were a pain to watch even there, sometimes so much as making me consider killing them... dont make this game do that)

(side note, I am playing 17.1 and no kickstarter. And the problem becomes most obvious in terror missions. though i also noticed them a bit in others. I actully had more fun with flight combat than start maps(which is why I am taking a break for now)

Edited October 31, 2012 by Sapare

[thothkins]

Bearing in mind that the transition between engaging a mission on the Geoscape and entering the Battlescape will speed up, then this probably will too. At least in the parts you're not following one of the NPCs around anyway. That you should be able to control for yourself as an option.

[dark_madmax]

Well I certainly will check back once it closer to release to see if they made improvements to tactical part. But just as it is for me personally tactical part should be fun and engaging, if it isnt then it just ... well.. not game for me. I been re-playing silent storm recently and even though its didnt age well its still loads more fun than what I experienced in this demo . And Firaxis XCOM:EU tactical part also light ages ahead

[thothkins]

can't argue with "tactical part should be fun and engaging, if it isnt then it just ... well.. not game for me." If it's not engaging then it's simply not a game you're going ot play much of.

[baldershoot]

I've just started playing the alpha and i look forward to starting a game knowing it will unfold into the full experience when the game gets released. However the first aspect of the game i have noticed to be slightly off is: When moving soldiers about the battle field... that was exactly what i was doing. Apart from the missile launcher i had no feel for who i was moving. Each sprite looks the same. They are small identical looking units. I think tags of some sort could help. In the original you could see hair colour, sex, weapon type. All these things helped to keep track of who was who and helped you invest in your soldiers.

[Gorlom]

baldershoot those identifying features disappeared later on in the original game when armours had helmets and every oldier was using heavy plasma. Also you mention weapon type... Xenonauts should have more weapon than X-com. maybe you should play on a smaller resolution?

apart from the sprites you have the healthbars on top of the UI controls and you have a faceshot of the selected soldier in there.

[thothkins]

I understand baldershots point. I remember losing that sense of individuality back in the original when I got folks Power Armour and Flying Suits. But the poor guys were being sent out in overalls

Short of a little mouse over that shows you the soldiers name (and that would be set from the options menu as it may annoy some folks), what else could you do? Beyond having their faces on the UI and equipment clearly shown. Squad Role?

[erutan]

Some things are limitations of the engine - I'd like to be able to go prone, duckwalk/crouchmove, but that'd bump up the sprites to an insane level so they can't do it. Hidden Movement is something they've been unhappy with/tweaking, I expect it to improve. Real time w/ pause can be great (E5, 7.62, shadow company, ufo series, etc) but the point of Xeno is to be a faithful modern remake of X-COM with limited streamlining. Squad roles will make things nicer.

While I liked elements of XCOMs tactical setup (it did a great job of streamlining things for the most part), it had major issues. Emphasizing flanking then having unlocking groups of enemies that get a free position when viewed is rather broken, and the cover system is unintuitive at times. The lack of free-aim I could kind of accept as it made explosives more unique, but it was still annoying and cover got damaged too easily most of the time to balance for that.