I think the shield system needs to be changed imo

[Kamehamehayes]

I'm making another topic on shields, this time describing my grievances with the current system that I now feel after debating with others online and doing some of my own research (see my topic on Demo v3.03 shield data for that research). I said a couple of days ago that I really enjoyed the current shield system and that it mostly buffed the shield compared to how it was in X1. I still agree with that in most regards; however, I feel the new system is inherently flawed and the way shields become their most effective is when you have a lot of armor to begin with. The shield does not inherently allow a soldier to survive x amount of hits, but here, shields seem to become more effective as your soldier gains more and more armor. 

Here's an example. If a soldier with 60 hp is already getting 2 or 3 shot by most weapons, than a shield will not allow that soldier to take that many more hits (1 more probably). However, if that soldier is well armored and can now take 6 or 7 hits, then the shield gets exponentially more effective as each shot is getting more and more negligible. I described this phenomenon back in v25.2b when I stormed the cleaner base with guardian armor. My soldiers in guardian armor were already taking only single digits-20 damage every shot the cleaners took at my soldiers, but my shield soldiers reduced incoming damage by another 20 (as shields were nerfed to 16 armor in another hotfix soon afterwards). This means that they only took negligible damage and could easily juggernaut through the entire mission with no effort. I originally thought this was an issue with shields being too powerful, but now I think it is more of a system issue that affects the whole game. 

A soldier with low level armor at their point in the game does not benefit enough from using a shield to consider using it and a soldier with high level armor at their point in the game will take so little damage with a shield that the game almost becomes laughable easy a certain missions. I feel like this was never the intended purpose of the shield and that the shield should always allow for a soldier to be able to take x amount of extra hits. 

This is why I think the shield system should be changed to a mix between X1 and X2's mechanics. I think that shields should block an incoming attack entirely and have its own hp stat, but the shield has some armor on its own that reduces incoming damage to it (say the shield has 60 hp but has 10 defense for example). This way, the way shields work is more intuitive to the average player, the shield will allow for any soldier to take extra hits- not just ones with excessively high armor already, and the shield can better contend with the rapid upgrading alien weaponry because it has an inherent armor stat as opposed to X1. 

[Alienkiller]

Do you use natural Covering as well as Standard Covering (Walls, Doors, Boscase etc.)? If not, then it´s clear that you get that high hits, esp. on the Shield Soldier.

What I do is to give the Shield Soldier an extra Plate for direct Hit protection if possible. Both (the Shield and Protection Plates) get upgraded with the Alien Fiber Material, which both get a reduced weight and give much more Protection. I don´t make the Shield Soldier to an Tank without Pistol / Stun Rod about the 0 learning effect. Later on that Soldier get as first the with R & D upgraded Suit which makes him / her much harder to hit and more flexible.

3 Points you have Mentioned and an 4th you have not noticed yet:

1. The Shield have already an seperate Armor-Level (sometimes it´s not shown, but it have) which is the big Difference to Xenonauts 1. In X1 it was more an nice Gimik.

2. The Shield get reduced like every Armor per hit in Protection, which is the second big Difference to Xenonauts 1. In X1 you get a hit and Armor / Shield get destroyed completely. Then the Soldier had only 1 Chance: FLEE!

3. The Shield is relatively soon upgradeable to an lighter and more protective Version as well as the Armor Plates / Cevlar Armor for that Soldier. That was doable in Xenonauts 1 too, but with the new Concept from Xenonauts 2 it´s much more effective.

4. The Shield Soldier, Heavy Soldier as well as Sharp-Shooters get very effective with the new Suit. Try it out in the next big testable Version.

Where I give you right is, that some Parts of the Game need some more Adjustments here and there, which will come after all the Gaps (R & D etc.) are filled and the Main-Parts on the Geoscape get done.

 

An mix between Xenonauts 1 and Xenonauts 2 is not neseccary, about destroying the new cool stuff. We have already enough elements from the Predecesssor in Xenonauts 2, which is enough to reduce the Development time for 2 or 3 Years. Xenonauts 1 were an good experimental Game for it´s time, but today you can´t win with that an flowerpot.

There the 2006 UFO 1 ET incl. the 2010 Gold-Upgrade get more Features for Oversight, an better Damage System, upgradeable Vehicles, Weapons etc. and better Graphics then Xenonauts 1. And the Devs here try to come on an similar Level in that like the direct Competitors (UFO ET-Row and new XCOM) incl. bring the Feeling of old X-Com (Storage, Damage-System, etc.) back.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Alienkiller

[Chris]

The intention isn't actually that the soldier can ALWAYS take X amount of extra hits - if we wanted to do that, we'd have kept the X1 system. One of the issues with it is you can pretty much guarantee a soldier with a combat shield will not die if hit by enemy weapon fire, at least the first time, because they just have such a big pool of HP when the shield is included. They arguably take away too much risk in X1.

You need to take damage randomisation into account too. If a shot does 50% more than base damage, in X1 that's probably still not going to kill the target, but in X2 the effectiveness of armour changes greatly based on how much damage is being dealt. A weapon that does 50 damage doesn't just do 10 damage if the target has 40 Armour, it does anything from 0 up to 35 Damage. 

That doesn't mean that we don't need to update the way shields work, but it's worth considering those things. Maybe a mix of armour and HP would still give us what we need, though.

[Skitso]

2 hours ago, Chris said:

The intention isn't actually that the soldier can ALWAYS take X amount of extra hits - if we wanted to do that, we'd have kept the X1 system. One of the issues with it is you can pretty much guarantee a soldier with a combat shield will not die if hit by enemy weapon fire, at least the first time, because they just have such a big pool of HP when the shield is included. They arguably take away too much risk in X1.

You need to take damage randomisation into account too. If a shot does 50% more than base damage, in X1 that's probably still not going to kill the target, but in X2 the effectiveness of armour changes greatly based on how much damage is being dealt. A weapon that does 50 damage doesn't just do 10 damage if the target has 40 Armour, it does anything from 0 up to 35 Damage. 

That doesn't mean that we don't need to update the way shields work, but it's worth considering those things. Maybe a mix of armour and HP would still give us what we need, though.

Maybe adding more audio-visual feedback would make it feel beefier too. Some meaty metallic blocking sfx with some sparks with small puffs of smoke might do the trick?

Edited February 10, 2023 by Skitso

[Chris]

1 hour ago, Skitso said:

Maybe adding more audio-visual feedback would make it feel beefier too. Some meaty metallic blocking sfx with some sparks with small puffs of smoke might do the trick?

I don't think it's the solution, but it's probably something we should do anyway!