What I love, what I don't

[StellarRat]

Guys I think you are overthinking this.

I think you're right.

[Betuor]

We arn't making realism, we're making AWESOME! Oh wait, that's a different game.

[Max_Caine]

There's waaaay to much overthought put into this. "Alien Alloys" are clearly a classic example of Unobtanium/Handwavium. Alien Alloys are listed in the Xenopedia as "not found anywhere on earth" and Alien Alloys "defies both logic and the existing scientific consensus", putting them on the handwavium shelf beyond the ability of people to categorise them. Thus, because Alien Alloys are handwavium, there is no point saying "real world metals have certain properties, so Alien Alloys should follow those properties" because the author can straight up declare that Alien Alloys can have whatever properties he feels they need to meet the needs of the story. Xenonauts is emphathetically not hard science fiction, and attempts to put Xenonauts in this category will only end in tears before bedtime.

[thothkins]

Handwavium. Right up there with Adamantium and Inertron.

[flashman]

I think unobtanium was the stupidest name for a mcguffin I have ever heard. Lets pick the most obvious and ridiculous name for a material that we need to explain doesn't come from earth, to all the lower than 80 IQ action movie watchers.

[Bletchley_Geek]

Xenonauts is emphathetically not hard science fiction, and attempts to put Xenonauts in this category will only end in tears before bedtime.

Really that.

Back to the OP. It's hard to judge what I like/dislike from the game, since it's alpha status and no serious attempt has been made at balancing AP costs, damage, etc.

I do however like a lot the tactical combat: it's just about perfect, taking the best features out of the original X-COM and Jagged Alliance 2 regarding the interface, weapons, etc. I also like the expanded air combat as well, it's a nice and welcome addition.

The things I dislike are mostly buggy and/or unfinished features... so I can't really complain about them, other than just reporting them if I see them unreported

[Gorlom]

I think you're right.

There you go overthinking again stellar!

[HWP]

There's waaaay to much overthought put into this. "Alien Alloys" are clearly a classic example of Unobtanium/Handwavium.

Something that can be used in manufacturing and, in the original game, even mass-produced, is clearly not unobtainium. It's not as if they are just a question mark - they become a staple of your alien-fighting industry early on and till the end of the game.

because the author can straight up declare that Alien Alloys can have whatever properties he feels they need to meet the needs of the story.

Well, if the author declared alien alloys to be nonconductive, we'd have to take the word - but no one did that. And in the absence of such a declaration, there's no reason to assume it. Throughout the game, alien tech is shown to be only a tech level above human, not far out of reach.

[Gorlom]

Something that can be used in manufacturing and, in the original game, even mass-produced, is clearly not unobtainium. It's not as if they are just a question mark - they become a staple of your alien-fighting industry early on and till the end of the game.

Really? could you tell me what you understand unobtanium to be? I understand it to be a fictional mythical material that does whatever the author of said fiction needs it to be. Doesn't necessarily need to be rare or unknown.

Well, if the author declared alien alloys to be nonconductive, we'd have to take the word - but no one did that. And in the absence of such a declaration, there's no reason to assume it. Throughout the game, alien tech is shown to be only a tech level above human, not far out of reach.

How do you figure it's only one tech level above humans? (how do you define tech level btw?) we get all the tech by reverse engineering their tech not by naturally coming up with stuff until we are advanced enough to think of how to make plasma weapons ourselves.

wouldn't they be at least 2 tech levels above humans since they have plasmas, and through reverse engineering their tech we first figure out how to make lasers (rather than plasma)?

[Shuichi Niwa]

Don't know about the tech tree in Xenonaut but in the original human research laser without their help ^^

[HWP]

Really? could you tell me what you understand unobtanium to be?

Theoretical material with ideal properties (for mechanical use it would be perfectly elastic till breaking, sometimes even infinite strength), used in back-of-the-envelope approximations. There's no formal concept, though by definition it's not a real material.

How do you figure it's only one tech level above humans? (how do you define tech level btw?)

You can determine they are only one level above by comparison of starting tech. Aliens aren't wearing armor impervious to rifles (which is certainly not impossible), you can build interceptors that can keep up with their craft, they don't even shoot you with perfect accuracy, which more advanced technology would ensure... do I need to continue?

They aren't much stronger than us, this is evidenced by your relative combat success.

A rough idea can be found in GURPS TLs, but for a more serious approach I would define TL as one complete cycle of technology readiness from TRL1 to TRL9.

I.e. the gap, at least in relevant fields, can be considered within one TL if we have or can readily formulate TRL1 understanding for their technology that is found in TRL9. That seems to be the case.

we get all the tech by reverse engineering their tech not by naturally coming up with stuff until we are advanced enough to think of how to make plasma weapons ourselves.

We would not be able to reverse-engineer technology more than one tech level ahead of our own.

No more than Civil War era industrialists could reverse-engineer a modern computer or a jet fighter.

They wouldn't be able to do it even if presented with the whole line of computer evolution.

You know Clarke's third law, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"?

That's what computers, even primitive ones like ENIAC, would be in the early 19th century. More strictly speaking, to understand computers, a civilization would need at least a TRL1 concept for them - an idea of what a computer is, what it's for, and how, in principle, to go about making it.

Babbage's Analytical Engine concept was developed around mid 19th century. That was TRL1-TRL2 - so, given a working product, he would be able to reverse-engineer it. Not just his contemporaries, you'd need the man himself. Adding the leading minds on electrics, and a little more time, they might be able to understand ENIAC.

Modern computers use semiconductor band gap devices, the concept of which didn't exist until the Interbellum, so a transistor computer would be just seen as a piece of rock in the 19th century - "Indistinguishable from magic". Doesn't mean people would think it's magic, just that they wouldn't be able to find any evidence that it is not.

Edited October 16, 2012 by HWP

[Gorlom]

You can determine they are only one level above by comparison of starting tech. Aliens aren't wearing armor impervious to rifles (which is certainly not impossible), their craft can't easily outrun human interceptors, they don't even shoot with perfect accuracy, which more advanced technology would ensure... do I need to continue?

They aren't much stronger than us, this is evidenced by your relative combat success.

which game are we talking about? UFO:EU or Xenonauts?

If you go and invade the middle ages would you wear full plate armour and employ tactics specifically worked out against the units and strategies of that era or would you rely on your superior technology (and to an extent modern tactics) and just shoot them savages in the face? You'd probably be a bit more cautious than that. But what isn't to say that these aliens capable of interstellar flight is tremendously arrogant?

I don't see the lack of counters to our level of technology as evidence they don't have the technology for it and abandoned it when it became obsolete for whatever reason.

In Xenonauts not being able to outrun the interceptors could be explained away by something as simple as an unfamiliarity or technological incompatibility with earth atmosphere so when they adapted their crafts they couldn't optimize it.

Same for their accuracy. In Xenonauts I believe they are supposed to have a mindlink with the weapons targeting system. If it for some reason behaves differently at ground level in an earthlike atmosphere than the aliens usual practice environment that could explain the offset.

We would not be able to reverse-engineer technology more than one tech level ahead of our own.

but... in Xenonauts you aren't able to reverse engineer the plasma. you come up with laser instead because you don't fully comprehend the technology. and that is only after acquiring other tech to help you understand the weapon tech by cross references. wouldn't this suggest that they are more than the "one tech level ahead of us"? Or were you talking about X-com?

[Mermel]

theoretically you can reverse engineer more than a tech level ahead.

Take the whole of quantum mechanics or a modern microchip as a more precise exampel.

It is an obersvation of something happening. The why is still shrouded in mystery.

Basically someone observed that electrons behave in a certain way, others made use of the observation.

We use quantum effects on a daily basis, but why they work the way they do, we don't know. It was a long way of trial and error to get these things to work, but it clearly shows you don't really have to understand what is going on to use an effect.

So, if you present someone with a device, which is a ready made solution, reproduction of that solution is possible as long as you can observe what is happening.

The big point is knowing that it works, having a direction to work to makes all the difference in the world.

As a real world exampel:

NASA took the concept of the aculbierre drive to the lab last month. As crazy as it might sound, it is the concept of a warp drive, using a loophole in relativity to achieve speeds greater than that of light without violating einsteins laws. The theory is plausible and works on paper, but how a device that uses that effect might look like, how exactly you have to do it and if it actually will work in the end nobody knows.

Now take the hyphotetical scenario of presenting NASA with a finished drive using that concept. It would bypass decades of research just by showing that it works and how a device like that would look like.

Electricity is another exampel.

The basics of research on electricity date back to as far as the 17th century. Now go and present someone there with a ready made electrical device, build around the start of the 19th century.

Reverse engineering would be possible, the materials were there, what was lacking was knowledge on how it works.

Even though intially a 17th century person couldn't come up with advanced uses for it, presenting a working concept of a device using electricity (And some sort of power source) would jumpstart technology for at least a hundred years, if not a lot more.

Another scenario:

Civilization goes down the *******.... radio and electrical devices would still be there anyway. It's not so hard to build them after all, once you know it can be done and have a glimpse on how it works, basic electricity can be produced with pretty low tech all around.

So, to put it together: If you know it works and have a direction to look at, it all get's a big lot easier, even several tech levels ahead of you

[HWP]

which game are we talking about? UFO:EU or Xenonauts?

Mostly Xeno, but generally both where they are similar enough, since Xeno is a remake.

If you go and invade the middle ages would you wear full plate armour and employ tactics specifically worked out against the units and strategies of that era or would you rely on your superior technology (and to an extent modern tactics) and just shoot them savages in the face?

Is that even relevant?

What's relevant is that them savages wouldn't be able to reverse-engineer most of your technology to use it against you. I'll explain in the reply to Mermel. The same will apply to jet fighters, missiles, everything down to ceramic armor.

A full cycle of technological development is needed to get past a level ahead. You wouldn't even be able to understand it otherwise, just see a piece of rock that does something when its operator wants to - exactly like magic.

[ Note: Might be worth it to split posts starting from a few before into a separate thread on technology and science. ]

NASA took the concept of the aculbierre drive to the lab last month. As crazy as it might sound, it is the concept of a warp drive, using a loophole in relativity to achieve speeds greater than that of light without violating einsteins laws. (1)

Now take the hyphotetical scenario of presenting NASA with a finished drive using that concept. It would bypass decades of research just by showing that it works (4) and how a device like that would look like.

You misunderstand what TRL means.

This concept (1) is already TRL1 for the drive. If NASA succeeds with their experiment, they'll get to TRL1 on this.

Read the article on TRL I've linked to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technology_readiness_level

TRL is not TL, the latter isn't a well-defined concept. One TL in a field, like I said, is best defined as the path from TRL1 to TRL9. From the idea of semiconductors to finished transistor devices, for instance.

Of course, to replicate the actual drive, we would not only need TRL1+ for the whole drive, or even TRL4 that a prototype itself gives us, but also TRL1+ for every particular technology it requires. But with understanding of the principle, we might be able to substitute technologies we don't understand with ones we do. Without it, we'd need a star trek replicator... but even that wouldn't work (seeing how it can't replicate latinum).

theoretically you can reverse engineer more than a tech level ahead. Take the whole of quantum mechanics or a modern microchip as a more precise exampel.

It is an obersvation of something happening. The why is still shrouded in mystery.

"Why" isn't a question that can ever be fully answered. For that answer there will be more "why", and even if we understand everything, develop and prove a Theory of Everything, we still won't know why the world is that way, why do the strings exist.

Microchips are based on transistors that use electrical fields and atomic lattices. Atomic level, not quantum level. We don't need to understand it at quantum level, atomic is enough, and on atomic level we know why they work the way they do.

But before creating them, we needed to understand these ideas, so as to get an idea to dope the semiconductor substrate. Without that, even receiving a big fat transistor and modern microscopes, we would give no significance to the differences in the distribution of tiny ppm-level impurities across the silicon substrate. With pre-transistor era technology we wouldn't detect those impurities at all. So all we could make is pieces of silicon with wires attached, but no useful electrical properties.

So, if you present someone with a device, which is a ready made solution, reproduction of that solution is possible as long as you can observe what is happening.

Black box observation is not enough. Without a concept, you can at best reproduce the device exactly as is (given Star Trek replicators - which we don't have), but not, for instance, make a larger or a smaller version.

Imagine giving a nuclear reactor to a Renaissance civilization. They'll understand there is a source of heat, but will not understand how it works. They might be able to produce a replica of the mechanics - but since they have no idea of atomic weights, at best they'll use natural uranium, not enriched, so it will never work (CANDU also requires heavy water). Furthermore, since most modern reactors use ceramic pellets, their replicas probably won't even use uranium, just any high-density ceramic.

To a modern observer it will look like a cargo cult. In fact, a cargo cult is precisely that - an attempt to replicate a technology more than one Tech Level ahead of your own.

Edited October 16, 2012 by HWP

[Gorlom]

Mostly Xeno, but generally both where they are similar enough, since Xeno is a remake.

Is that even relevant?

What's relevant is that them savages wouldn't be able to reverse-engineer most of your technology to use it against you. I'll explain in the reply to Mermel. The same will apply to jet fighters, missiles, everything down to ceramic armor.

o.0 considering that I was quoting and arguing your reasoning for that the aliens were not using tech advanced enough to be more than one tech level ahead and not anything about reverse engineering then yes, I would say that it is relevant to what *I* was discussing... Maybe I wasn't clear enough?

A full cycle of technological development is needed to get past a level ahead. You wouldn't even be able to understand it otherwise, just see a piece of rock that does something when its operator wants to - exactly like magic.

And again I keep trying to point out that the aliens are using plasma and humans fail to reverse engineer that from the weapons recovered.

If anything they are more than one techlevel ahead but are still using tech that is based on a techlevel we can understand and as such extrapolate new ideas and concepts from cross referencing surrounding tech.

Black box observation is not enough. Without a concept, you can at best reproduce the device exactly as is (given Star Trek replicators - which we don't have), but not, for instance, make a larger or a smaller version.

your talk about TRL1 being conceptual stages means that they are indeed only one tech level above us since we have gotten so imaginative in our Science fiction literature that we can imagine outlandish things and by definition anything included in the game is something a human has thought of.

Scratch that that isn't what the wikipedia says TRL1 is. I must have misunderstood you. The idea of a technology such as plasma weaponry isn't "basic principles observed and reported". Ie not a concept.

If you can imagine the idea of a technology (without understanding the exact workings of it) wouldn't it be easier to reverse engineer than if the concept are unheard of? (such as jet engines, missiles and ceramic armour are to prehistoric folks?)

TLDR : If you understand what it does, just not why, wouldn't it be possible to figure out how through a scientific process?

Edited October 16, 2012 by Gorlom

[Mermel]

Mostly Xeno, but generally both where they are similar enough, since Xeno is a remake.

You misunderstand what TRL means.

This concept (1) is already TRL1 for the drive. If NASA succeeds with their experiment, they'll get to TRL1 on this.

Actually, yes. I wasn't aware of TLR as a set concept.

So NASA just entered TLR 3: Analytical and experimental critical function and/or characteristic proof of concept

[ElTee]

HWP: You lose a few jets. Now you're fucked and the tick will only climb as you can't intercept any more fighters without doing a suicide mission and hoping for the best. That's what you're pushing for if you want planes to be expensive instead of inflating the price but having it cost just as much relatively through increasing the price of everything else.

About allied aircraft..I think they can serve two functions:

1. You can, in the short-term, induct help from a countrys' airforce. Once you click Intercept, the option will appear if you have at least one of your own fighters. This should cost enough money that in the long-term, you're better off having your own equivalent fighter.

2. Competition. Can't down it/intercept it fast enough? The region downs it and you get no funding for it, or the mission. This will hurt your relations with them.

2A. They"ll progressively get more advanced, just like how local allied soldiers will eventually get laser weapons. Sure they"ll start less advanced and always be behind the Xenonauts, but the chance of them being able to down it before you is a threat.

That's the only thing I can think of for adding to gameplay. They're A. A source you can rent aircraft B. Competition while also providing some small relief, since downed UFOs can't return to orbit and advance the ticker.

[HWP]

And again I keep trying to point out that the aliens are using plasma and humans fail to reverse engineer that from the weapons recovered.

Yes. But that doesn't yet mean they are far past our technology. We can't reverse-engineer everything even within our own tech level - e.g. we can't reverse-engineer a modern CPU, the technology node is too fine for that.

It only applies one way. If a particular piece of tech skips more than a TL ahead, i.e. we aren't close to TRL1 for it - we haven't ever seen the basic principles of its operation - then it's certain that we won't be able to reverse-engineer it, not until our science catches up in a big way. In reverse it doesn't apply, not everything we can't rev-eng is necessarily very advanced.

TLDR : If you understand what it does, just not why, wouldn't it be possible to figure out how through a scientific process?

It is, but your science has to be up to date to even start figuring it out.

Imagine bringing a modern computer into the 19th century, complete with Windows 8. There is a good chance they will never understand what it is. All they know is you can move the cursor with a mouse, click here to watch movies (movies they'll understand), click there to get music. If you give them something deeply locked, like an iPad, even Babbage himself might hold it in his hands, use it, and never realize that it is his Analytical Machine finally implemented.

A truly advanced alien artifact or even our own technology from a few centuries ahead is likely to appear the same way to us. We won't know what to look for, we won't have the tools to look for it, it will look like a rock. At best we'll be able to use it like a magical rock.

[StellarRat]

The horse is now soup... "Can't we all just get along?"

[HWP]

HWP: You lose a few jets.

Yes, that's a problem. Try not to. Now you need to replace them. Stop your purchases, sell something you don't need, spend your next month's funding on it.

Also, Chris himself has already proposed random UFO crashes from Earth airforce interception.

2. Competition. Can't down it/intercept it fast enough? The region downs it and you get no funding for it, or the mission. This will hurt your relations with them.

Don't think that's really a good idea.

Actually, yes. I wasn't aware of TLR as a set concept.

So NASA just entered TLR 3: Analytical and experimental critical function and/or characteristic proof of concept

Well, they still have to observe the basic principle. As of yet it's just an idea - there's an issue that it requires some things we aren't sure exist or can be created. NASA will try to spontaneously create them through high energy densities to try and see the principle. So it's quite far from active R&D yet. Though I don't know the details.

[ElTee]

With the rate UFOs come, you can't afford waiting a few months. Especially since the ticker (and therefore difficulty) will accelerate as you spend those few months of gaming sitting on your thumbs as UFOs fly around, return to orbit and you lose funding.

Out of curiosity, have you already modded the game where aircraft are so expensive?

[HWP]

With the rate UFOs come, you can't afford waiting a few months.

It's not like it was all that good an idea to lose all your planes in the first place. Don't do it the first month, or yeah, I guess you're screwed. Keep some money in your account, add the next month's funding and buy then.

Out of curiosity, have you already modded the game where aircraft are so expensive?

No, waiting for release to start doing any alternate balance on, so as not to do it multiple times.

Remember, I want to also bring back the economy - building things for sale and such. You have advanced tech, you have to be able to capitalize on it. With a fat profit margin.

[Gorlom]

It is, but your science has to be up to date to even start figuring it out.

Imagine bringing a modern computer into the 19th century, complete with Windows 8. There is a good chance they will never understand what it is. All they know is you can move the cursor with a mouse, click here to watch movies (movies they'll understand), click there to get music. If you give them something deeply locked, like an iPad, even Babbage himself might hold it in his hands, use it, and never realize that it is his Analytical Machine finally implemented.

A truly advanced alien artifact or even our own technology from a few centuries ahead is likely to appear the same way to us. We won't know what to look for, we won't have the tools to look for it, it will look like a rock. At best we'll be able to use it like a magical rock.

You're assuming a very improbable situation aren't you? a single artefact without any relating technology to examine.

Feels kinda like trying to decipher hieroglyphs without the Rosetta stone. in Xenonauts and even in the old X-com the scientists get to play with a lot of tech that interact.

Edited October 16, 2012 by Gorlom

[HWP]

You're assuming a very improbable situation aren't you? a single artefact without any relating technology to examine.

Feels kinda like trying to decipher hieroglyphs without the Rosetta stone. in Xenonauts and even in the old X-com the scientists get to play with a lot of tech that interact.

Yes, but if all of that interacting technology is beyond your understanding... So instead of one computer, you give medievals a whole load, servers, computers, tablets, cell phones, all networked. Will it really help them?

You need not just relating technology, you need stepping stones. Step on them, bring your science up, understand the principles, advance in technology - and then you can go further. But that's not just a quick rev-eng knockoff job, it's a big effort for advancing humanity's science as a whole.

[Max_Caine]

HWP, in reference to your earlier post on page 4, just because Alien Alloys in Xenonauts are available for aliens to use doesn't make then any less handwavium. The description of Alien Alloys in the Xenopedia meets the criteria of handwavium, to whit:

any fictive, extremely rare, costly, or impossible material, or (less commonly) device needed to fulfill a given design for a given application

From the description of Alien Alloys in the Xenopedia:

At the most basic level, almost every material is a precisely tailored alloy that is specialised for the task at hand. Armour plates that are an order of magnitude more durable than anything mankind has ever produced, superconductors that operate at room temperature, completely transparent metals - each and every one is an exquisite molecular construction that utterly defies both logic and the existing scientific consensus.

That is a fictive, costly material, needed to fufill a given design for a given application (in this case, many applications). Alien Alloys do whatever Chris wants them to do – it's right there! “Almost every material is a precisely tailored alloy that is specialised for the task at hand”. With that single sentence, if an alien ship needs a material that is nonconductive, Chris doesn't need to spell out that directly - there's a subtype of the catch-all title which can do that for the ship.