What I love, what I don't

[Mermel]

Late 70's setting. Pretty close to perfect, I had set it a couple of years later in history for some more computing power, but that's really minor and no immersion breaker.

Additional tiers of weapons plus laser not being available from the start. Really great.

This with that giant alien fleet in orbit and just the starting screen with those super serious generals makes me feel like I lost the war already. It feels more threatening than the original xcom.

Overwhelming alien force, no simple research project to bring your troops immediatly on an almost equal level of firepower with the invaders, it just feels great.

Secondary victory conditions are a pretty neat addition as well, keeps you from searching the map for that last alien hiding somewhere. Brilliant!

Alien fighters and the air combat do their part as well, makes the whole game feel more "round".

On the bad/meh/not sure what to think of it side:

A lot of alien fighters, but no air presence of earths military. I would appreciate more of the fightercraft and in addition to that, AI air combat from the rest of the world. In my head that sounds pretty immersive, feeling like you're in the middle of a fight. Gameplaywise... dunno, might be too hard to balance and maybe too random.

Planned multi stage levels

I really don't know what to think about it. Keeping those to only the biggest alien craft might actually be fun, given they only come once in a while. Elsewise it might slow the progress of the game down too much, breaking the flow of things.

So, these are my thoughts so far. I havn't played into the game too much, as the unfinished state would spoil my first playthrough. It looks pretty awesome though, can't wait for the finished thing.

[Jean-Luc]

A lot of alien fighters, but no air presence of earths military. I would appreciate more of the fightercraft and in addition to that, AI air combat from the rest of the world. In my head that sounds pretty immersive, feeling like you're in the middle of a fight. Gameplaywise... dunno, might be too hard to balance and maybe too random.

Fighter swarms are merely the product of basically no real balancing having been done. That will be addressed during the beta.

Pretty long ago there was some talk about having conventional airforce fighter activity at the start of the game (before the aliens subdue them and assert air superiority) and even potentially having missions where you cooperate with npc fighters but those things were/are very much up in the air and not to be counted on I think.

[Shuichi Niwa]

I thought they already take care of that by mentioning in the story that only XCOM's air force have the ability to withstand the alien forces ?

[Jean-Luc]

Yes, that's why the conventional air forces would become a non factor pretty soon. But I don't expect those things to really be implemented. It's been a really long time since we've had any mention of it.

[HWP]

Seeing how you start up using conventional Earth fighters, it's really pretty silly.

I feel more and more confident that the price of a fighter should be either set at 5 million (i.e. 2 months' funding), in line with a beat-up-but-flying airplane, or upkeep set equal to price (renting them as in UFO original, though I don't know of any company that insures active service jet fighters). You're given 3 at the start, don't lose them all in one place, at least not until you can afford a Mig or build alien-tech machines yourself.

Realistically, you wouldn't even have any fighters until you get into alien tech territory. Anything that can be taken down by air forces would be, and much quicker than you can do it, you'd just be called in to sweep the crash site.

[Shuichi Niwa]

Well, not realy "conventional Earth fighter". They have been modified so that they can fly faster and such I guess. That's the explanation we got from the story and I don't feel like i'm having much trouble with it. It's a good setting element. Make the Xenonauts feel more important and give the big brass a reason to cash in for us.

[HWP]

I take it you're not in the industry. Modifying a fighter to fly faster by a meaningful margin isn't something you do for 200 grand in a couple weeks.

You start with taking the airframe apart to replace aluminum parts with steel and titanium that can withstand the increased temperatures. While at that, there's the engine, which there just isn't any procedure for, you'll need a whole other one... and you have to do something to compensate for all the extra weight you added.

The speed difference between Mig-25 and SR-71 is 20%. The difference in design - well, just take a look at the latter.

[Jean-Luc]

The prices need to be balanced for gameplay purposes, they can't possibly be realistic in all respects.

The earth fighters used by Xenonauts were "modified" in light of what little knowledge was gained about the alien technology during and after the Iceland Incident. You can interpret that however you want. Don't know if they're faster than normal but I remember reading something about their fuselage being reinforced (some reflective material or something) against the UFO's energy weapons.

[StellarRat]

Now, now, HWP, let's not go all technical on everyone... Generally, I'm a fan of realism, however, I think for the planes it's way too late to change much. All I can do to justify it in my mind is assume that the planes are modified to deal with UFOs in some way and that XCom has special intelligence assets and radars that are able to detect the UFOs where conventional air forces can't. Maybe they have early backscatter radars in the planes and on the ground.

[HWP]

The prices need to be balanced for gameplay purposes, they can't possibly be realistic in all respects.

That's why I said 5 million, not 50. I think a few million is an acceptable price in terms of gameplay, it's two months' funding. Maybe a bit much, but should be balanced by re-enabling viable commercial manufacturing.

Don't know if they're faster than normal but I remember reading something about their fuselage being reinforced (some reflective material or something) against the UFO's energy weapons.

Well, a silver coat instead of paint or even an unpainted fuselage (you don't have to paint them, just need more maintenance if you don't) should help a lot against lasers. Nothing against other weapons.

UFOs are clearly not using any kind of radar stealth technology, they use something other than radar on their end as well.

[GoodGuyEddy]

Y U NO READ THE LORE!? ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)

Nah i'm kidding.

But really the lore explains it as following: The normal military can't beat them.

Xenonauts is an organization that uses heavily modified planes.(special armor and all that). It's impractical for the entire military to do such specialized modifications on a mass scale. And as such Xenonauts interceptors were the only ones on the earth to score a downed UFO. The Xenonauts organization claimed responsibility for the first air combat victory and a pact was made. The countrys would finance the Xenonauts organization and allow them unristricted access to their airspace, in return for protection and alien tech.(Hence the reason all the alien weapons are "sold" after every mission.) Oh and the very second you reaserch something about the alien tech you forward all your knowledge to them. As the game progresses the regular military slowly adapts all of the recieved knowledge and become capable of defeating the enemys fighters.(Hence the reason why the smaller craft "dissapear" from your geoscape after a while,the normal military now can effectively fend off the smaller UFOs) Well that's as far as the official lore goes.

And about HWP:

*cough*too much realism*cough* *cough*hurting game*cough*

Oh and what Jean-Luc said.

[Gorlom]

That's why I said 5 million, not 50. I think a few million is an acceptable price in terms of gameplay, it's two months' funding. Maybe a bit much, but should be balanced by re-enabling viable commercial manufacturing.

what time periods monetary value are you using when you feel 50 million is realistic? (I don't know what is realistic, I'm just curious) and which currency?

Edited October 15, 2012 by Gorlom

[StellarRat]

UFOs are clearly not using any kind of radar stealth technology, they use something other than radar on their end as well.

Why do you say this?

[Mermel]

It's actually a quiet nice explanation.

And too much realism would really hurt the game a lot. You could discuss for hours if an invasion in this scenario could actually be sucessful.

But anyway. I guess I should read more lore and memorize it... or better not

As for the gameplay... keeping track of literally thousands of fighters on the map and finding your own wouldn't be that much fun, so no option here either.

The lore is good enough when I don't start thinking about it. But actually... I can barely remeber seeing any sci-fi movie or story that didn't cause any nausea in me as soon as started thinking about the explanations.

I just hope the really large craft will be still scarce at the end of the campaign. Having to deal with a lot of the big ones doesn't feel like too much fun.

Having them balanced in a way that makes you feel like "oh god I'm dead" when they first show up, bringing you joy when you down the first one and only goes to a point where you think "I can do that" whenever one shows up, is something I hope for.

Edit:

And 50 Million for a fighter in 1979 seems pretty close to realistic. 18 Eurofighters cost about 2 Billion Euro in 2007 which is about 2,5 billion dollar

Edited October 15, 2012 by Mermel

[HWP]

50 million would be a high realistic value if you were building heavily custom-modified fighters with all the latest tech and top quality. For around 1980. Today it's more.

But 5 million is a low believable value too if you use second-hand planes and don't get all of the latest gizmos.

[Gorlom]

50 million would be a high realistic value if you were building heavily custom-modified fighters with all the latest tech and top quality. For around 1980. Today it's more.

But 5 million is a low believable value too if you use second-hand planes and don't get all of the latest gizmos.

Last question: is this in dollars, pounds, Deutschmarks or yen?

Why do you say this?

Because the UFOs are rounded they can't really use any conventional radar stealth technology. No Idea why he figures they aren't using radar though.

It's actually a quiet nice explanation.

And too much realism would really hurt the game a lot. You could discuss for hours if an invasion in this scenario could actually be sucessful.

with the resources available the smartest, most realistic and most cost effective plan to conquer our planet (intact) would be to drop a few chryssalid type aliens in a few suburban areas somewhere (spread over the globe) during night or work hours when no one is home.. All the alien leaders would have to do is lean back and watch as the zombie apocalypse unfolds.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Gorlom

[HWP]

Why do you say this?

1) It's unlikely for them to have radar stealth technology - it's extremely narrowly specialized for human conflicts within the techset of the second half of 20th century and first quarter of 21st century. It would have to be developed for Earth's invasion specifically.

2) Radar stealth requires certain design features. You can't have cylindrical or spherical curves, for instance, you need to use flat or specific aspherical double curvature surfaces. You need to shape and terminate breaks in your panels in specific ways to minimize edge scattering.

3) Composites and composite structures are by far preferable, while the game keeps talking about alien alloys.

4) It's a compromise, and a deep one. You build the whole craft around radar stealth or don't. Did aliens?

Well, if they did, I imagine they would take enough care that you wouldn't be spotting them from a thousand miles.

Because the UFOs are rounded they can't really use any conventional radar stealth technology. No Idea why he figures they aren't using radar though.

They might be, but radar isn't all that great for their purposes. They seem to have better tech.

Edited October 15, 2012 by HWP

[Jean-Luc]

2 months funding is probably too much, even a single month probably is. Planes in Xenonauts aren't exactly expendable but they will go down (barring save scumming) and losing so much money for a single downed plane would be a disproportionately severe blow imo.

Keep in mind that in Xenonauts you can't get infinite money by spamming and selling laser guns. You have to survive on whatever money /2/"]these guys decide to give you and mission rewards/sales.

[StellarRat]

1) It's unlikely for them to have radar stealth technology - it's extremely narrowly specialized for human conflicts within the techset of the second half of 20th century and first quarter of 21st century. It would have to be developed for Earth's invasion specifically.

2) Radar stealth requires certain design features. You can't have cylindrical or spherical curves, for instance, you need to use flat or specific aspherical double curvature surfaces. You need to shape and terminate breaks in your panels in specific ways to minimize edge scattering.

3) Composites and composite structures are by far preferable, while the game keeps talking about alien alloys.

4) It's a compromise, and a deep one. You build the whole craft around radar stealth or don't. Did aliens?

Well, if they did, I imagine they would take enough care that you wouldn't be spotting them from a thousand miles.

They might be, but radar isn't all that great for their purposes. They seem to have better tech.

Those would be good reasons for human designed ships, but since we have no "real" parameters for a alien ships anything is possible. Maybe they have signal cancelling jammers, maybe they have a coating on their ships that absorbs microwaves, maybe their "alloys" absorb microwaves, who knows. Also, the background story says the aliens "prepare" their ships for atmospheric flight, maybe some evasion mods are done as part of this process. I'm fine with it the way it is.

Of course, your right about the jet prices. I don't think I'd have a probably scaling those to make the fighters cost a lot more as long as the game balance isn't ruined. Or maybe the jet prices are only for the mods to the jets that XCom makes. I'm sure the supporting governments are probably not going to quibble too much about loaning XCom some jets considering what's at stake (but then why do they have a budget, right?)

[Mermel]

Last question: is this in dollars, pounds, Deutschmarks or yen?

Look above, with an inflation of approximatly 200%+ from the originaly monetary value from 1979 to 2007 a price of 50 million dollar is actually really pretty close to reality. I got 46 million dollar, but there are other aspects I won't calculate for this matter.

So... reality is a gamebreaker

And actually... current stealth technology is pretty much outdated and will be completly useless within the next 2 years in any western country and almost entirely on the globe within the next 5 years, as passive radar just made a huge leap forward (using scattered receivers picking up reflection of background sources). The mention that the technological use is too narrow is the basic point.

And as for the cryssalids... yes, good scenario. Biological or chemical warfare from orbit might be just as good. Any conventional warfare with orbital superiority is pretty much unrealistic. To disable earths military all you need are some well placed and calculated asteroids.

The population as a whole... not quiet as easy, but given the technology of the aliens, conventional confrontations within firing range of earths military are highly unlikely.

edit:

As for the budget... take the space race. America just threw money at the problem until it went away. The Budget was enourmeous to the point where practically anything goes.

This was just a race. Thinking about a global economy throwing everything they have against an enemy threatening to kill you would also be quiet a gamechanger... no alien would come into the atmosphere until the biggest problems are asteroide or biowiped or eaten by zombifying killeraliens.

It's good XCOM and Xenonauts are as they are. Reality doesn't provide a lot of awesome. Most efficient ways to do things are pretty far away from the awesome variations of problem solving

Edited October 15, 2012 by Mermel

[HWP]

Those would be good reasons for human designed ships, but since we have no "real" parameters for a alien ships anything is possible. Maybe they have signal cancelling jammers,

Then you wouldn't be able to fire missiles at them (except sidewinders).

maybe they have a coating on their ships that absorbs microwaves, maybe their "alloys" absorb microwaves, who knows.

Alloys are alloys. Metals have certain consistent behaviors that are inherent to them being metals.

RAM coating is semi-plausible, but it's blatantly human technology, just too half-assed.

I'm sure the supporting governments are probably not going to quibble too much about loaning XCom some jets considering what's at stake (but then why do they have a budget, right?)

Exactly, I don't see why wouldn't they send you their best men for free, build your bases for free and so on in that case.

[StellarRat]

Then you wouldn't be able to fire missiles at them (except sidewinders).

Alloys are alloys. Metals have certain consistent behaviors that are inherent to them being metals.

RAM coating is semi-plausible, but it's blatantly human technology, just too half-assed.

Like I said, potentially XCom could know enough about them to be able to track their ships (including missiles) while others couldn't. Also, maybe I didn't read enough about the missiles, so correct me, but I don't seem to remember anything about any of the XCom missiles being radar homing. Maybe they track radioactive particles coming from the alien ships engines or some other signature. Who knows? I think we'll just have to accept the game as it is.

[HWP]

Also, maybe I didn't read enough about the missiles, so correct me, but I don't seem to remember anything about any of the XCom missiles being radar homing. Maybe they track radioactive particles coming from the alien ships engines or some other signature. Who knows? I think we'll just have to accept the game as it is.

I'm talking about your starting missiles, we know the heavy one is either Phoenix or AA-9.

You also don't have any real alien tech at that point. Tracking radioactivity wouldn't work for missile guidance at all. Really your only option is radar. And there's no reason for it not to work.

[StellarRat]

Well, it says Avalanche

[Skvid]

Guys i think you are overthinking this.