Aircraft loadouts

[xilacnog]

I've looked up the F-16 and according to the specifications, it can carry 6 Sidewinder missiles. I'm going to increase the ammo count on the Sidewinders to 3x on each wing, when I get Xenonauts running again.

However, I didn't find the missile counts for the MiG-31, but it should be able to carry at least 2x Sidewinders on the wing tips and either 2x or 3x Sidewinders in the middle pylons, what do you think?

Also since I didn't find an equivalent for the avalanche missile, I don't know how many of these should the MiG-31 carry, do 2x Avalanche missiles in the middle pylons and 1x Avalanche missiles on the wing tip pylons or no Avalanche missiles on the wing tips?

EDIT: The Avalanche equivalent would be the R-33 (russian) or the AIM-54 (American)?

Edited September 8, 2012 by xilacnog

[Max_Caine]

Thsi thread might be handy. I'd be careful about bringing too much realism into the game. If you add more missiles, then why bother with later aircraft, when a barrage of upgraded (read: alienium) missiles will do the job?

Edited September 8, 2012 by Max_Caine

[xilacnog]

The latter aircraft are faster, more agile and durable?

EDIT:

The post you referred me to is more about modifying the MiG to also have a cannon, what I want to do is to get the missile loads more realistic, if the F-16 can carry 6x AIM-9 Sidewinder, who would be the crazy engineer that upgrades an aircraft airframe to withstand more punishment and reduce it's missile loadout?

Also, after a better look at the specifications for the MiG-31, I'll place 2x Avalanche Missiles in the middle pylons and 1x Sidewinder missile on the wing tips.

Edited September 8, 2012 by xilacnog

[Max_Caine]

This is the modding forum, therefore, do as thou wilt is the whole of the law. But the only thing I would say about adding extra missiles is that if I can launch enough missiles from early-model aircraft to zap later-game UFOs, then I don't need to build late-model aircraft. The benefits of later airframes (enhanced speed, durability, possibly more missile slots) are cancelled out if I don't need those advantages, and I don't need those advantages if I can upgrade my weapons and still have more than enough shots to zap my opponent. That's my reservation. But I will say go ahead and mod it so you can see what I mean.

[Gauddlike]

Remember that any change you make to the weapons will be global.

You can't alter the sidewinders for the F-17 without also altering them for the Mig for example.

The ammunition is set by weapon system, not by the craft that carries it.

If the F-17 can carry 6 sidewinders (2 weapons with ammo set to 3) then the Mig will be able to mount 12 of them (4 weapons with ammo set to 3).

[Tam Elbrun]

not if you alter the game so it thinks the mig sidewinders and the f-17 sidewinders are different weapons... of course that creates other issues.

as for the more missiles tipping the balance, reinforce the hulls of the ufos, and give the late-game craft similar ammo increases.

[Max_Caine]

To alter the game so it has "MiG" sidewinders and "F-17" sidewinders you have to create new weapons in the aircraftweapons.xml file, then add those to items.xml and strings.xml. Doing that is just the start - that makes them all available on the list (so an enterprising player would simply pick the best weapon). I can't see from the xml how heavy slots are locked out from the missile slot (because if you could work that out, then you could use the same kind of rules to lock out "MiG sidewinders" from "F-17 sidewinders").

[Gauddlike]

The only flags are for cannon, normal, or heavy weapons.

That would mean anything with a heavy slot would be able to use the avalanches plus anything else you said was heavy.

So if you wanted x3 sidewinders to be heavy then only a heavy slot would carry them.

That would be any heavy slot on any aircraft though.

It would also mean any craft you gave a heavy slot to enable it to carry your x3 sidewinders would also be able to carry the avalanche.

You could get round it by changing the F-17 to only have normal slots and the Mig to only have heavy slots then add weapons to those two groups independently.

That would mean the Mig would be able to take a full load of avalanche though, that could be a little imbalanced, especially when you add Alenium missiles to the mix.

If you are significantly increasing the damage potential of your craft you really should consider upping the durability of the enemies.

How would cannon be affected by your missile balance changes?

They would need damage increases to keep up otherwise they would become useless and the choice of weapons is reduced by the alterations to missiles.

[xilacnog]

I understand your points, especially after altering the ammo counts. But at least, for now I won't lose so many fighters to the "UFO fighter madness"

[Gazz]

Long ago I altered the missile graphics because the "half fantasy" look didn't work for me.

Why use a realistic (Sidewinder) missile but also have a fantasy missile (Avalanche) when the Phoenix would do the job just as well?

http://www.hentschke-keramik.de/transfer/xeno_missile_mod.zip

The relative scale is correct, too. The Sidewinder is a much smaller missile.

[GoodGuyEddy]

Wait DON'T change the missile count! Want to know why? Well it's because the Xenonauts lore states that Xenonauts use heavily modified fighters. Like having a different armor compound to give them a chance against alien craft, which is why Xenonauts was the first organization to win in a fight against a UFO. And the changes made could also negatively affect their missile capacity. So the jets you have are far from being stock models and as such you should not bring in stats from their real world counterparts.

[Gazz]

you should not

This never ever works on modders. Just some free advice. =P

Hmm. In order to put some horizontal upgrading into the aircraft weapons, how about this?

You originally start with a 1-Sidewinder mount (normal) and 2-Sidewinder mount (heavy).

After you research [insert apropriate], you get a research project for Sidewinder Miniaturisation, resulting in

2-Sidewinder mount (normal) and 3-Sidewinder mount (heavy).

[Max_Caine]

So that would be Unlmited on Unlock then?

EDIT: Actually, it would probably be better to do a Replace on Unlock (Unlimited).

Edited September 9, 2012 by Max_Caine

[Gauddlike]

Yeah there are other options now that research can replace existing tech or add to the buying pool.

[Tam Elbrun]

ok, if upgrading the ufos is out due to cannons, make it come after alenium and alien alloy research then add the following dialogue to the upgraded missile capacity research:

"Ever since we refitted the F-17's with reinforced armor, in order to combat the alien menace, our pilots have been grumbling about the reduced missile load out they have available due to the weight. However, thanks to the alien ship components and hull metal we've recovered, we believe we've solved that problem. By reducing the weight of our fighter armor, and using alenium to make smaller equal yield warheads with the same impact force, our fighters are once again capable of carrying their normal payloads."

why after alenium you might ask? because the combined destructive force of the multiple missiles might be equal to or less than a single upgraded missile, i can't say, but it's certainly more versatile.

Plus alenium warhead tech being part of how they kept the same yield in a smaller package rules out miniaturized alenium warheads which could easily be rather be broken.

[xilacnog]

I like Gazz's and Tam's ideas, I will see if I can put something together till tuesday or wednesday

[Gauddlike]

Personally I would avoid mentioning Alenium and alien alloys.

Unless you are going to manufacture the new sidewinders yourself and use Alenium and alien alloys as parts in the construction of course.

No one else on Earth has the same access to those materials that you do so who are you going to be buying them from?

[XenoMask]

Ya know something I started wondering.. Why aliens don't have alenium missiles? I mean, I'm pretty sure they are strong enough to blew up your starting aircraft in one hit, but alien fighter missiles don't do that from what I remember.

[Tam Elbrun]

Unless you are going to manufacture the new sidewinders yourself and use Alenium and alien alloys as parts in the construction of course.

Well, yeah, that's kinda what i was thinking when the whole researching miniaturizing thing got brought up. build your own milti-missile pods. Not quite what the op had intended I'd wager, but if they're unlocked by research anyway, manufacturing them yourself opens doors that wouldn't otherwise be possible.

Alternately, you can eliminate those two materials by haveing a pair in-between techs where failed attempts at synthesizing those materials leads to ones humans can synthesize, that's close enough for this but not good enough for other projects? or, hell i dunno.

[GoodGuyEddy]

Well Tam, if you have enough alien materials and your scientists can efficiently develop techniques to shape them. Then there is no point in upgrating your old fighters, which were designed around different material physical limitations, and just develop an alien tech based interceptor.

[xilacnog]

Then, instead of going with the research and increasing the Sidewinder to 3x ammo, I'll mod it to 2x ammo and improve the ammo count to 3x or/and 4x on the more advanced missiles, since those use alenium and alien alloys which makes them lighter and more useful than the Sidewinder.

For example the Alenium missiles will have 3x ammo because they are lighter but more advanced missiles will have 4x ammo because our scientists have learned better ways to miniaturize warheads.

EDIT:

OR

Simply increase ammo count by the tier, so T1 missiles have 1x ammo, T2 have 2x ammo, etc.

Edited September 12, 2012 by xilacnog

[Gauddlike]

They also have increased damage per tier.

If you balance the damage based on how many missiles you want the craft to carry you also need to consider the durability of the aircraft carrying them and those you will be using them against.

For example if a weapon system has 3 shots the craft carrying it really needs to be able to survive long enough to fire 3 shots otherwise they are going to be useless.

The enemy really needs to be able to survive at least 2 shots, possibly from multiple craft, otherwise the extra reloads are again useless.

[sledge]

[...]

That would mean the Mig would be able to take a full load of avalanche though, that could be a little imbalanced, especially when you add Alenium missiles to the mix.

[...]

Err it's not supposed to be that way?? Well currently (okay as of 1.41 that is) it is just like that.

Got a MIG with 4 avalanche and one with 2 avalanche and 2 of their Alenium counterparts. Still not enough to down a cruiser in one run even when sending the avalanches first to take to pd heat

Technically: Is the game able to handle multiple missiles in one slot? Do they have a delay for successive firing? Can they be fired all at once? Then, does one click to a auto fire deactivated missile fire one or all?

[Max_Caine]

I've played about with this. If you mean, different types of missile in one slot, no. One slot, one missile type. If you mean 2+ missiles of a particular type in a missile slot, yes. When you shoot a missile and you have more missiles in that slot, the lock-on timer resets to zero. So, if you want to fire off successive sidewinders, you either need to slow down big time just before the first missile launches, or kick in the afterburners and fly past the UFO to come around for another pass. Or have a bait aircraft lead the UFO about while you pound missiles into it.

[Gauddlike]

Multiple missiles are treated as a single missile with reloads basically.

A 2x sidewinder mount wouldn't fire two missiles at the same time, it would just allow you to fire a second one when the cooldown/lock on timer expires.

Err it's not supposed to be that way??

Just noticed I was looking at the file I had modified to check out how the weapon flags worked.

I had set mine to use two heavy and two normal slots but the default is four heavy slots as you say.