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Chris

Xenonauts-2 December Update

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Merry Christmas everyone! The team is on our Christmas holiday and it's now time for our final development update for 2020. Today we released Build V16 on our Experimental branches, a build we were planning to release just over a week ago but was delayed by some extra fixes we had to make after we discovered a couple of critical bugs. Anyway, it's now out and our beta testers can see first-hand the progress we've made over the past four weeks.

V16 Gameplay Improvements:
Although the focus of the last month has been on gameplay improvements rather than adding new features, we did still add a couple of new features. The first of these is a Soldier Memorial screen (based on the popular Xenonauts: Community Edition feature) which allows you to view your fallen soldiers and the date on which they died.

The second feature is the new soldier Stress / Fatigue system. The purpose of this system is to discourage the player from running too many missions (the player isn't meant to fight a crash site battle every time they shoot down a UFO), and soldiers gain stress from taking part in missions that slowly fades over time. If a soldier ever goes over 100 Stress they suffer a breakdown and are set to Wounded for a certain number of days until they recover. At the moment the system is a little basic but I'm hoping we'll find time to integrate it into the ground combat mechanics in a more interesting way (i.e. high Stress soldiers are more likely to suffer morale events / psionic attacks in battle than well-rested soldiers).

There's a long list of gameplay updates - most of which are small in isolation, but have a large collective effect. We've added tooltips to various parts of the game as previously it was impossible to view the stats of certain items anywhere, we've done some work to ensure fewer things are being incorrectly hidden below the Hidden Movement screen, and we've brought back the cover icons from X1 that people have been asking for a while, etc. Switching between the primary and secondary weapons is now "sticky", making using secondary items a much more pleasant experience than it was before. Many of the bugs reported in the later versions of V15 have also been fixed in V16 too, as well as countless more small fixes.

We've also added quite a bit of new art to this build. There's a new 3D model for the Colossus armour (the most advanced suit of Xenonaut armour) and we've done some texture work on a number of the basic aliens that has made the Sebillians in particular look nicer than they did before. There's inventory art for our new Electroshock weapons and updated designs for items like the Medikit, Stun Baton and the Alien Magnetic Weapons. We've added the final background art to the Soldier UI screen, and we've rendered the new MARS models out for use in the Soldier Equip screen (these will be painted over by a 2D artist soon too).

Given we've only been working for just over three weeks since the most recent major update for V15, I think the build has a lot of improvements. I'd appreciate the time of anyone who is able to give the build a test over Christmas because it means we can hit the ground running in January and get to work fixing the big issues immediately!

Project Status:
For those who are not involved in the beta, the game is now starting to take shape reasonably well. Most people would probably still prefer to play the first Xenonauts over the current version of Xenonauts 2 but I suspect we're only a matter of months away from the point where X2 begins to supersede its predecessor.

At this point this is mostly a matter of content. Although there's still a fair amount of coding to be done on the project, most of the things that are likely to jump out at people as being wrong with the game is missing content like missing parts of the tech tree, research reports not having images or text, or seeing terrain objects or aliens that look bad because they're still using semi-placeholder assets, etc. We're making steady progress on this front and the presentation of the game will continue to improve and the missing content continue to arrive in the coming months.

It's been nice to see the bugs and issues reported on the forums gradually shift from being technical issues to gameplay issues, and to see people starting to properly play the game. We've been working hard to try and remove as many of the annoying / broken / jarringly ugly things that get in the way of players enjoying the game and with the Early Access launch still planned for late February we'll be continuing to prioritise this - having a more polished and enjoyable game is probably better than having one or two extra features!

I hope everyone had a merry Christmas and has a happy new year - we'll be back at work on Monday 4th January!

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While I like the idea of a stress mechanic, I hope it isn't overdone to the point where it gets to be annoying. As long as it is implemented in a way that most people enjoy being able to cycle troops in/out of a ground combat squad, then it has been done right! Thanks for the update!

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Im looking forward to Xenonauts 2, but I strongly hate the stress idea. The same stress system is used in Darkest Dungeon and I hate it. I love having a smaller team getting heaps of xp and creating a pro team. However this doesnt mean im still able to fight every battle because my team will get injured and sometimes require me to wait until they heal.

Also the pros for taking every crash landing is that you gain more xp and resources. The cons is that it's time consuming and isnt needed if you have enough materials for your current build. In longer games players tend to skip smaller ship battles in favor of attacking larger ships.

If you want to avoid players from grinding battles and feeling repetitive, then you need to introduce a new areas of gameplay.

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@Bayonet12: There are some Things which the Game need (like the orbital Bombardement and Stress System) and the Public haven´t seen yet. The Problem is that if we don´t bring that in or is already implemented Xenonauts 2 haven´t been needed.

So the Players have to use what they get. XCOM and XCOM2, Phoenix Point and similar Games weren´t so good if such elements wouldn´t be implemented and hardcoded.

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Posted (edited)

I am not really sure how I feel about the soldier stress system yet, I would need to try it. I think the idea behind it is that they don't want people to feel the need to grind out every crashed UFO. I think there are a couple things there.

1) Some people will want to grind out every UFO

2) Some people, when they're struggling, will grind more UFOs to get materials to try to catch up

3) Grinding every UFO is the optimal choice most of the time, if you're looking to be as strong as you can be, which "forces" you to do them.

 

Just off the top of my head I can see a couple potential solutions...

1) make bombing the site competitively beneficial compared to doing the ground mission somehow.

2) Have off-site training months(weeks?) for soldiers. Maybe an elite training program opens up with 10 slots that you can choose to send soldiers to.

 

edit--------

To add a little more detail to the training weeks/months, they would need to be a reasonable boost to stats, probably a little less than what you would get from doing a bunch of missions. The idea would be that your soldier could gain close to what they would by doing the missions(so you don't feel the need to do them all for that reason) but at the same time it would make them unavailable for the duration of the training. But they also have a zero percent chance of dying during the training so that's good too.

 

Anyways I would need to play more to get a good idea of how everything could fit in, but maybe others who know better could improve the idea.

Edited by odizzido

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It´s a very good system and is an real component, which all Soldiers, Pilots etc. have in Wartime or real hard training (Wartime Exercise). It´s a must have, because all other Games have it.

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On 1/3/2021 at 7:06 AM, Bayonet12 said:

Im looking forward to Xenonauts 2, but I strongly hate the stress idea. The same stress system is used in Darkest Dungeon and I hate it. I love having a smaller team getting heaps of xp and creating a pro team. However this doesnt mean im still able to fight every battle because my team will get injured and sometimes require me to wait until they heal.

Also the pros for taking every crash landing is that you gain more xp and resources. The cons is that it's time consuming and isnt needed if you have enough materials for your current build. In longer games players tend to skip smaller ship battles in favor of attacking larger ships.

If you want to avoid players from grinding battles and feeling repetitive, then you need to introduce a new areas of gameplay.

Darkest Dungeon is a game specifically about stress and adventurers going insane and it's a critical element of that game, so it's not a particularly good point of comparison for what we're trying to achieve here. The XCOM2 fatigue system works fairly well overall and is a better example to look at, as it's just a secondary system that puts a few minor bounds on the gameplay and generates the occasional interesting dilemma.

The stress system in X2 isn't going to impact you much unless you're determined to grind out every single crash site on the Geoscape (which most players aren't interested in doing), so I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's a bit of a blunt instrument right now but we're going to finesse it a bit more over the next few updates.

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1 hour ago, Chris said:

Darkest Dungeon is a game specifically about stress and adventurers going insane and it's a critical element of that game, so it's not a particularly good point of comparison for what we're trying to achieve here. The XCOM2 fatigue system works fairly well overall and is a better example to look at, as it's just a secondary system that puts a few minor bounds on the gameplay and generates the occasional interesting dilemma.

The stress system in X2 isn't going to impact you much unless you're determined to grind out every single crash site on the Geoscape (which most players aren't interested in doing), so I wouldn't worry too much about it. It's a bit of a blunt instrument right now but we're going to finesse it a bit more over the next few updates.

I am the type of person to run every battle, so it is going to impact my playstyle: especially since your goal is to heavily reduce the amount of battles to 20-25 max iirc. When I make a suggestion I am told it's not good due to not following X-Com which's the spiritual successor. Yet was stress part of X-com?

I think it's to harder to figure out these imaginary rules then it's to play Xenonauts Ironman lol. 

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On 1/4/2021 at 6:21 AM, Alienkiller said:

It´s a very good system and is an real component, which all Soldiers, Pilots etc. have in Wartime or real hard training (Wartime Exercise). It´s a must have, because all other Games have it.

Except X-com which's what Xenonauts is based on.

Solders in Xenonauts do not fight 24/7. There is plenty of time between battles, especially since Devs want to reduce the amount of repetitive mission. Even in X1 there were breaks between events, and X2 wants to reduce the amount of missions, which means there would be even more free time.

Only soldiers who're in battle 24/7 day after day need holidays. SEAL/SAS act very similar to Xenonauts. They are not at war 24/7 and have plenty of recovery time between missions.

But again, doesnt matter. Imaginary rules, no point giving feedback.

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10 hours ago, Bayonet12 said:

I am the type of person to run every battle, so it is going to impact my playstyle: especially since your goal is to heavily reduce the amount of battles to 20-25 max iirc. When I make a suggestion I am told it's not good due to not following X-Com which's the spiritual successor. Yet was stress part of X-com?

I think it's to harder to figure out these imaginary rules then it's to play Xenonauts Ironman lol. 

Obviously the "this is XCom" rules are subjective, but I don't think it's unreasonable to invoke "that's not X-Com" rule when you were essentially advocating removing a memorable part of the original game (night missions) while being happy to break it when adding a balancing system that only affects players playing in an unusual way that breaks the game balance and makes it less enjoyable.

Essentially the problem with doing every mission is that I either have to balance the game around people that grind every mission (forcing everyone to do it even though it's less fun), or I balance it around normal players and anyone who fights every mission has a very easy time of it because they have way too many resources and overlevelled soldiers for that stage of the game.

It's possible to balance it in other ways than the Stress system, but all of it boils down to reducing the number of missions the player plays. Sounds like your issue is with that rather than the Stress system. I'm not averse to putting a longer campaign mode in the game but you have to understand that people that want a 75 mission campaign are atypical and we're not going to design the standard game mode around that desire.

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I am not sure if it helps but from what I can tell there is no reason why you couldn't have multiple teams and grind out every ground mission that way?

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You mean like in X1, UFO ET or old X-Com-Row.

That´s easy: If you send a Soldiergroup to a Mission and they can End it, you have to give them some Rest days, where they can´t be used. If you were in a real Military (Army, Airforce, Marines or what else) and get drilled for Missions where your Concentration is needed for 1.000 % then you will know why that Personal need such longer breaks. The same count for Fire Fighters, Police, Sanis, etc.

In the older Games (like the old X-Com Row, the UFO-After-Series, Xenonauts 1 and the first new XCOM-Part) the Devs hadn´t the possibility to implement that for many Reasons. But the new Games have to get in such Systems to boost them against 08/15-Scrappy-Games to give that Gerne and other Gernes a new Life.

An similar System like in X2 you have like Chris announced in the new XCom-Row (XCOM 2 with all smaller DLC´s / XCOM 2 WotC and XCOM: Chimera Squad) and in Phoenix Point. And if I´m right an similar System in the announced UFO 2 ET, because Modders brought in a Stress Level System / Training Level System in the Predecessor too.

The Stress Level System in XCOM 2 / XCOM: Chimera Squad and Phoenix Point is a very cool working Feature, but only the beginning to get in that Matter, what we will see in X2. You can build up a second Team, but it will have the same Problem after 4 or 5 Missions. And belive me, you have the In-Game-Money to give 40+ Soldiers, max. Ingineers, max. Scientists as well as 4 to 5 Bases a stable Base in Xenonauts 2. I tested it.

The other Advantages from the Stress System: You get Money, after your Founder States send her Soldiers to the Crashsites. The Game give you enough Features for your Soldiers to fight (Alien-Base-Raid-Missions, light and heavy Terror Missions, Base Defense Missions, some UFO Chrashsites, as well as not yet implemented Special Missions and evtl. more secrets we don´t know yet).

Short said: The Devs don´t wanna make the same Mistake they did in X1. The Player get to powerful very fast. That they reduce drastically in Xenonauts 2 with shorter Material you have, lesser Personal and so on. But therefore you get Building-Bonuses as well as you can move your Personal (like the Engineers to the Power-Facilitys, Hangars etc.) earlyer or later.

And if an special Idea will get in the Game where you have to strip down UFO´s from your Workers or special payed Freelancers in Demonatage-Hangars, then you are obligated to give your Soldiers breaks and let your Founders get UFO´s to generate Money for the Strip Downs etc. That Idea have many Andvantages to solve Problems which are still in the Game. Evtl. it will get in before or after the Early Access.

 

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On 1/11/2021 at 11:31 AM, odizzido said:

I am not sure if it helps but from what I can tell there is no reason why you couldn't have multiple teams and grind out every ground mission that way?

Well you'd have to pay to recruit and maintain a second team, so probably wouldn't be till mid game. If players choose to invest early in a second team they aren't getting more interceptors or research done. Won't help having three teams if you cant shoot down the ufos. Of course maybe rushing a second team will be a valid strategy.

I think the balance issue Chris is outlining applies more to the early game, the constraint of the fatigue system might result in some interesting choices later on.

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On 1/9/2021 at 7:22 PM, Chris said:

Obviously the "this is XCom" rules are subjective, but I don't think it's unreasonable to invoke "that's not X-Com" rule when you were essentially advocating removing a memorable part of the original game (night missions) while being happy to break it when adding a balancing system that only affects players playing in an unusual way that breaks the game balance and makes it less enjoyable.

Essentially the problem with doing every mission is that I either have to balance the game around people that grind every mission (forcing everyone to do it even though it's less fun), or I balance it around normal players and anyone who fights every mission has a very easy time of it because they have way too many resources and overlevelled soldiers for that stage of the game.

It's possible to balance it in other ways than the Stress system, but all of it boils down to reducing the number of missions the player plays. Sounds like your issue is with that rather than the Stress system. I'm not averse to putting a longer campaign mode in the game but you have to understand that people that want a 75 mission campaign are atypical and we're not going to design the standard game mode around that desire.

1. You do not punish people for grinding, you reward them. 

2. The game already balances itself when you select which difficulty.

I would love to hear logical reasons as to why the above two sentences are not fair.

You could always remove stress mechanic for Veteran & Ironman since they're suppose to be harder and obviously require more grinding.

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Nope exactly that makes the Game for Players in such Levels interessting. Do you think XCOM, Hearts of Iron and others interesst that. The Player get that Hardcoded and is on his / her own authority to use the Veteran and / or Ironman Modus.

There is nothing to discuss about it. Stress Level like we have here or in a similar Way in the other Games are a must have.

 

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3 hours ago, Bayonet12 said:

1. You do not punish people for grinding, you reward them. 

2. The game already balances itself when you select which difficulty.

I would love to hear logical reasons as to why the above two sentences are not fair.

You could always remove stress mechanic for Veteran & Ironman since they're suppose to be harder and obviously require more grinding.

"Grinding missions" in this context represents people sidestepping the challenges of the game. There's no tactical or strategic skill in what is essentially just playing the same mission you've already beaten over and over again to make future missions easier simply because you have more resources and overlevelled soldiers relative to what the game is balanced to, so I don't agree that you should reward people for grinding missions.

Harder difficulties are meant to represent better mastery of the game mechanics, not simply a willingness to undertake repetitive tasks to circumvent those game mechanics, so I don't agree with the second statement either.

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On 1/10/2021 at 10:31 PM, odizzido said:

I am not sure if it helps but from what I can tell there is no reason why you couldn't have multiple teams and grind out every ground mission that way?

 

10 hours ago, Heinlager said:

Well you'd have to pay to recruit and maintain a second team, so probably wouldn't be till mid game. If players choose to invest early in a second team they aren't getting more interceptors or research done. Won't help having three teams if you cant shoot down the ufos. Of course maybe rushing a second team will be a valid strategy.

I think the balance issue Chris is outlining applies more to the early game, the constraint of the fatigue system might result in some interesting choices later on.

Yeah, it's possible to get around the stress system by recruiting extra troops and rotating your squad - but then that comes with extra salary / recruitment / base expansion costs and so forth, which somewhat counterbalance the benefits you get from running all those additional missions. At that point it becomes a choice the player can make rather than being an obligation, which is fine by me (although admittedly you'll still burn through the game content extra-quickly doing it that way).

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Here's the problem with stress.

Stress is designed to prevent players from doing every crash mission. I quote: "The purpose of this system is to discourage the player from running too many missions (the player isn't meant to fight a crash site battle every time they shoot down a UFO), and soldiers gain stress from taking part in missions that slowly fades over time."

But you are assuming new players will see the purpose behind stress. A newer player can easily assume they need to train more soldiers so they can take on every mission. When I first played X1 I ran every mission to make sure I didnt skip any battle since it could be a mistake to do so. It was only after completing the game did I understand how advanced I was and could have skipped many battles. So how are new players suppose to know they need to skip battles? It's more likely they will assume they need to train more men to run every mission.

If players are not suppose to run so many missions, make the game length and crash mission quantity vary depending on difficulty. Adding stress so that players hopefully understand they're not suppose to run so many battles is an flawed assumption.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Alienkiller said:

Nope exactly that makes the Game for Players in such Levels interessting. Do you think XCOM, Hearts of Iron and others interesst that. The Player get that Hardcoded and is on his / her own authority to use the Veteran and / or Ironman Modus.

There is nothing to discuss about it. Stress Level like we have here or in a similar Way in the other Games are a must have.

 


Nothing to discuss, who are you? Are you shutting down discussion now? Good to hear.

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10 minutes ago, Bayonet12 said:

It was only after completing the game did I understand how advanced I was and could have skipped many battles. So how are new players suppose to know they need to skip battles? It's more likely they will assume they need to train more men to run every mission.

If players are not suppose to run so many missions, make the game length and crash mission quantity vary depending on difficulty. Adding stress so that players hopefully understand they're not suppose to run so many battles is an flawed assumption.

Yup, that's certainly a point worth raising. But the player shouldn't have enough resources to build all the required infrastructure to run all those extra missions at the start of the game unless they sacrifice resources they'll be wanting to spend on other things, so I don't think it'll take them long to realise it's possible to play without doing every single mission. And if they do decide to grind all the missions anyway, at least they've got a bunch of extra upkeep costs that somewhat mitigate the gains they get from running those missions.

Therefore even if the Stress system doesn't totally solve the problem (and I personally think it'll do a better job than you do) it certainly helps solve some of it. And I don't really see many disadvantages to having it in the game.

EDIT - that said, your reply is once again conflating difficulty and grinding missions. People who play the game on hard mode don't necessarily want to have to repetitively play the same mission over and over again. Some people want a longer campaign, which is fine, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with difficulty.

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52 minutes ago, Chris said:

There's no tactical or strategic skill in what is essentially just playing the same mission you've already beaten over and over again to make future missions easier simply because you have more resources and overlevelled soldiers relative to what the game is balanced to, so I don't agree that you should reward people for grinding missions.

Harder difficulties are meant to represent better mastery of the game mechanics, not simply a willingness to undertake repetitive tasks to circumvent those game mechanics, so I don't agree with the second statement either.

Im EXTREMELY puzzled as to why you think players who run every mission should be punished for making the game easier. I thought I was playing the game. Doing a good job running every mission. I had no idea I was considered to be doing something that requires no tactical or strategic skill.

Im actually quite disturbed by what you said. I thought you were adding more missions, better alien AI, more alien mix, new alien type so that missions had: more depth and variety so they were less repetitive, and more enjoyable.

Well idk what to say. I thought playing missions on harder difficulty represented tactical and strategic problem solving. I dont see anything other then ground missions challenging or tactical. 

Is there a new game mode coming out? 

 

35 minutes ago, Chris said:

Yup, that's certainly a point worth raising. But the player shouldn't have enough resources to build all the required infrastructure to run all those extra missions at the start of the game unless they sacrifice resources they'll be wanting to spend on other things, so I don't think it'll take them long to realise it's possible to play without doing every single mission. And if they do decide to grind all the missions anyway, at least they've got a bunch of extra upkeep costs that somewhat mitigate the gains they get from running those missions.

Therefore even if the Stress system doesn't totally solve the problem (and I personally think it'll do a better job than you do) it certainly helps solve some of it. And I don't really see many disadvantages to having it in the game.

EDIT - that said, again your reply is once again conflating difficulty and grinding missions. People who play the game on hard mode don't necessarily want to have to repetitively play the same mission over and over again. Some people want a longer campaign, which is fine, but that's got absolutely nothing to do with difficulty.

Well ive seen players on X2 beta hire every soldier possible and run almost every mission, so I dont think the message is obvious or working.

If stress is added for the purpose of reducing missions, but doesnt work and isnt obvious then its not doing its job. There are draw backs to stress, but you dont care because you think people who run every mission are making the game easier and should be punished. 

I play every mission - get punished for playing...20 days in recovery GG. 

Edited by Bayonet12

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Im seriously lost for words. I thought all the new features were to create diverse maps with variable enemies to overcome and enjoy.

But im told by the X2 Project Lead that players like myself who enjoy running every mission should not be rewarded by doing something that requires no tactical or strategic skill and should be punished.

Going from bad to worse wtf.

Its funny how Alienkiller never talked about the 2 other people who also raised concerns and objection to stress being added. 

 

Edit: Although ive already listed other ideas, another simple idea is to just have alien ships explode on impact hitting the earth. Its not normal to have survivor when a ship is shot down. Problem solved and no stress, literally.

Edited by Bayonet12

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A similar System with Stress level is in XCOM 2 / XCOM 2 WotC and in Phoenix Point. There your Soldiers have to rest too sometimes longer, sometimes lesser. 

The same get here in Xenonauts 2.

The best example for that is WW2 and the Battle for Britain. If you only send your People every day 5 or 6 Times in the Air without Holliday, Brake etc. then you die automatically because you make to many mistakes.

That´s why the Stress System is not discutable. It have to be in the Game like in every new Games (above announced) and some older Games (like Jack Alliance, Jack Alliance 2 etc.) of that Gerne.

Edited by Alienkiller

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Stress mechanic was fine in the build from 24/12/2020. Besides, you don't wanna do every UFO crash because you're gonna be so short on money while trying to open 2 more bases (not counting your HQ) to cover the rest of the continents. With how the balance is right now, if I didn't miscalculate, early UFOs seem to be less financially rewarding when you send troops. When you "delegate" them you get more money (the equivalent of "Air Strike" in X1). So what was best was to Ground Combat only those new UFOs that you haven't seen before to unlock research options, and delegate/air strike the rest.

When bigger UFOs appear, it seems to me that they start to become more financially rewarding via GC. Then I had 3 teams of 10 good looking soldiers lol (great art) that I rotated. Battleships give you 500'000 at first, then weirdly 150'000 (which does not match the gymnastics I have to do to take one down omg I even started sweating during Air Combat one time) but if I send in my soldiers I brought back 1'700'000 worth of things after I sell them from my storage room. Though battleships, that's an endgame thing so you can't rely on that because they come in too late, I just mentioned them here to give an example. But the midgame ships seem to be somewhat rewarding via GC.

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17 minutes ago, Praetorian said:

Stress mechanic was fine in the build from 24/12/2020. Besides, you don't wanna do every UFO crash because you're gonna be so short on money while trying to open 2 more bases (not counting your HQ) to cover the rest of the continents. With how the balance is right now, if I didn't miscalculate, early UFOs seem to be less financially rewarding when you send troops. When you "delegate" them you get more money (the equivalent of "Air Strike" in X1). So what was best was to Ground Combat only those new UFOs that you haven't seen before to unlock research options, and delegate/air strike the rest.

When bigger UFOs appear, it seems to me that they start to become more financially rewarding via GC. Then I had 3 teams of 10 good looking soldiers lol (great art) that I rotated. Battleships give you 500'000 at first, then weirdly 150'000 (which does not match the gymnastics I have to do to take one down omg I even started sweating during Air Combat one time) but if I send in my soldiers I brought back 1'700'000 worth of things after I sell them from my storage room. Though battleships, that's an endgame thing so you can't rely on that because they come in too late, I just mentioned them here to give an example. But the midgame ships seem to be somewhat rewarding via GC.

Cool to hear. 3 teams of 10 soldiers, thats alot. Were you able to run every mission you wanted whenever you wanted with that amount?

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